311 réponses à ce sujet

[Jaulen]

FreshIstay wrote...


I've formed the conscious opinion that not matter how a female is presented it will always be some sort of controversy
In any Medium. Movies, Game's, etc. even if said character is written or designed by a female themselves. The deep question is, Why is Male representation compared side by side with Female representation as if the two are in competition ? Even more, If a video game character is dressed scantly clad or provocative, IS that so far different from what we see from Female's in our own society? Isn't it possible Artist's draw from real life inspiration Strictly in terms of dress apparel and even character (Isabela) ? What is so unbearably wrong with the way a Male character artist views his female character? 

*snip*

 As a Male I wouldn't fight bare chested with a giant axe and bottoms that barely cover my junk. My biceps wouldn't be the size of a human adult head either. 

Bolded for effect so that you can see that you ONLY refereneced the way the artists draw FEMALE characters based on some real life example....nothing said about the men.

Yep. And in games where the male characters are usually well covered in armor, the female characters have silly little bit-covers on....not real armor.

One thing I have really liked about Bioware games is that the Female clothing/armor is comparable in coverage to the male armor.

Modifié par Jaulen, 19 novembre 2013 - 06:26 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

Br3ad wrote...

No, the burden of proof falls to the one who refutes the claim.

And no. They don't just make characters to make characters. They make one that will sell. It's a product, just like any other. 

That's insane.  I could make any wild claim such as "Bioware marketed male Shepard because someone has a crush on Mark Vanderloo in the office" and then force you to prove otherwise.

It doesn't work like that.  Your arguments are circular.

[frankf43]

Jaulen wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Why shouldn't MaleShep be considered default? He's by Dar the more popular option.

Spending the money on equal representation for both genders in marketing just seems kinda pointless from an economic standpoint.

The problem comes that the association is made that women (and how this applies to a more global issue beyond just video games) are considered secondary.


While I see a lot of people actually refer to their male Shepard as things like Sheploo and so forth, Anita is of the opinion that it's still problematic on a larger scale issue that the woman Shepard has a large scale "FemShep."  Within the context of the rest of the video and how women characters are often given the personality of "woman" and in many cases seem to require obvious gendered imagery to denote that the character is a woman, it's still reasonably consistent.

I've formed the conscious opinion that not matter how a female is presented it will always be some sort of controversy
In any Medium. Movies, Game's, etc. even if said character is written or designed by a female themselves. The deep question is, Why is Male representation compared side by side with Female representation as if the two are in competition ? Even more, If a video game character is dressed scantly clad or provocative, IS that so far different from what we see from Female's in our own society? Isn't it possible Artist's draw from real life inspiration Strictly in terms of dress apparel and even character (Isabela) ? What is so unbearably wrong with the way a Male character artist views his female character? 

Yes...because as a female in a real world setting, if I was going to go off to battle I'd do it in a brass thong and a fur bikini top....

https://encrypted-tb...sC-rvKEsatBcb9Y


No one in a DA setting goes to war with less on than a male Qunari.

[Anthadlas]

EJ107 wrote...

Wraith 02 wrote...

Most people who buy games don't even watch every single piece of marketing or trailers and then base ingame choices of them. most play because of critic reviews and recommendations from friends.

When I played ME1 I knew nothing about Shepard, what they looked like, what gender they were, none of the background on them or the plot.

I chose Male Shepard because I am Male and I chose the default face because It looked good, simple

I'm 100% certain that the vast  majority of people who buy games see the cover, and Mass Effect's very clearly depicts the protagonist as male. 

i had no idea who the people on the cover were when I bought the game. For all I knew you could play as Shepard, Garrus and Ashley

[Br3admax]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

No, the burden of proof falls to the one who refutes the claim.

This actually isn't true at all. It's also remarkably convenient.

Frankly you provided an untestable claim which if we're going to be pedantic, would be irrelevant if we're going to discuss it based on scientific merit.

My claim that characters are designed to appeal is not without merit. I'm being told that this was not the case and that they just picked a person. In this case, the one who refutes should hold the burden of proof. What reason is there to believe that the ME team simply picked a character to pick a character? It's not the same as prosecuting a murder case where the burden of proof falls to the one who makes the claim. 

[Allan Schumacher]

Fact of the matter is that most game developers are male. So we get the generalised and perfect view on men from a male perspective and also perfect women from a male perspective. Hence why most are always attractive.

This isn't a good thing, and is much more reflective of a HOST of very serious issues (right down to how a lot of people treat women in technology). It also helps cement a self-fulfilling prophecy.

As a gamer and a developer, I see this as bad for the continued growth and diversification of gaming.

[Anthadlas]

Br3ad wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Are you going to actually refute it, or are you just going to say citation needed. Give me an example where it isn't true. 

Appealing, quite simply means that it is what the player wants. Do you really believe that they just made MaleShep for the the hell of it? They just woke up one day and threw darts until they hit a character and said roll with it? 

The burden of proof is upon the person who made the claim.

They made Shepard because they wanted a protagonist for their game who was human.  They gave the player an option to play as either male or female Shepard.   They did not poll any playerbase to use "Sheploo" as the so-called face of the game.

No, the burden of proof falls to the one who refutes the claim.

And no. They don't just make characters to make characters. They make one that will sell. It's a product, just like any other. 

No it doesn't, you made a claim you prove it.
Hence scientific theories finding proof instead of waiting for other people to disprove it.
Otherwise I claim that I can crap gold, prove me wrong

[Ianamus]

Wraith 02 wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

Wraith 02 wrote...

Most people who buy games don't even watch every single piece of marketing or trailers and then base ingame choices of them. most play because of critic reviews and recommendations from friends.

When I played ME1 I knew nothing about Shepard, what they looked like, what gender they were, none of the background on them or the plot.

I chose Male Shepard because I am Male and I chose the default face because It looked good, simple

I'm 100% certain that the vast  majority of people who buy games see the cover, and Mass Effect's very clearly depicts the protagonist as male. 

i had no idea who the people on the cover were when I bought the game. For all I knew you could play as Shepard, Garrus and Ashley

Mass Effect 3's is a lot more obvious- with a giant picture of male Shepard and no-one else. 

[Br3admax]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

No, the burden of proof falls to the one who refutes the claim.

And no. They don't just make characters to make characters. They make one that will sell. It's a product, just like any other. 

That's insane.  I could make any wild claim such as "Bioware marketed male Shepard because someone has a crush on Mark Vanderloo in the office" and then force you to prove otherwise.

It doesn't work like that.  Your arguments are circular.

Not the claim that at all. And appeal doesn't always mean "sex appeal" it's not the same. BioWare designed a character that they knew that their fanbase would want to play as. It's not that hard. If they wanted to just pick any random male character, they would have. It's simple marketing. 

[Jaulen]

Smashina wrote...

The first thing my boyfriend said to me after seeing a Mass Effect trailer (not having any experience with the series outside of watching me play) was "Hey, I didn't know the main character was suppose to be a guy." Up until that point he had accepted a female protagonist but after that he felt it should have been male.

I am in favour of having a shadowy protagonist in the DAI marketing so that new players don't start the game feeling there is a certain character they are "suppose" to play as.

That's funny. My husband had a different reaction. After he played through ME (so he knew the 'default' Shepard was male) and seeing me play as FemShep...his comment was that they should have made FemShep the default. He thought she was a stronger character for the series.

[Br3admax]

Wraith 02 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Are you going to actually refute it, or are you just going to say citation needed. Give me an example where it isn't true. 

Appealing, quite simply means that it is what the player wants. Do you really believe that they just made MaleShep for the the hell of it? They just woke up one day and threw darts until they hit a character and said roll with it? 

The burden of proof is upon the person who made the claim.

They made Shepard because they wanted a protagonist for their game who was human.  They gave the player an option to play as either male or female Shepard.   They did not poll any playerbase to use "Sheploo" as the so-called face of the game.

No, the burden of proof falls to the one who refutes the claim.

And no. They don't just make characters to make characters. They make one that will sell. It's a product, just like any other. 

No it doesn't, you made a claim you prove it.
Hence scientific theories finding proof instead of waiting for other people to disprove it.
Otherwise I claim that I can crap gold, prove me wrong

If I were making a wild claim like that sure. But I'm not. What evidence is there for the refute? What makes you believe that they just picked any random character? You can't just say no, prove it to me. That has just as little merit. 

[Allan Schumacher]

My claim that characters are designed to appeal is not without merit.

Your claim is, specifically, is that most people pick default Vanderloo Shepard because his character model is the one people want to play.

I'm being told that this was not the case and that they just picked a person.

You're being told that people picked default Shepard because he was the default character available. Note that this claim has as much support as your own conclusion.

Not the claim that at all.

Then you need to do a much better job of writing in a clear manner (this is the second time this has come up in as many days), because Sheploo = Mark Vanderloo Shepard to many people (myself included).  Perhaps you should have simply said "Male Shepard."

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 19 novembre 2013 - 06:34 .

[Ieldra]

Jeremiah12LGeek wrote...
I've picked a female character for my first playthrough of every Dragon Age game, and have only ever used a female Shephard in Mass Effect.

Considering the time I spend on customizing characters, the single button press required to select "female" hardly seems like a chore.

And my decision is my own. It is not determined by marketing decisions.

I genuinely resent the implication that people who choose a particular character are "thinking for themselves" while everyone else is somehow being unduly influenced by sexist marketing. It's not exactly a fair double-standard.

I realize that not everyone is saying this, but it is a recurring over-simplification, and a grossly exaggerated one, at that.

It attributes sexist motivations to the people choosing sheploo, as well as doing so to the people who constructed the final character design interface.

No sexist motivations are attributed. In fact, it would be more appropriate to say that people who go with the default because it's the easiest are victims of the more or less subconscious sexism of the industry. 

Also, the distinction is not between the people who choose maleShep vs. femShep, it's between the people who make a conscious choice and those who go with the default because it's the default. No, I'm not saying that the latter is inferior - people have priorities and for some the protagonist's details don't matter for a variety of reasons - but by not making a conscious choice *AND* thus being funnelled into the (usually) male default they become unwitting carriers of the sexist meme that the male is the default. The effect of that can be mitigated by the simple expedient of making people aware of the meme, and that's what things like Ms. Sarkeesian's video are about. It's about making people think "Hmm...I've always picked the default. Perhaps I've missed something I would've enjoyed. Let's do it differently next time"  

Having said that, it does feel odd to discuss this in the context of Mass Effect, since maleShep is a walking stereotype while femShep isn't, but the point the video made was about the marketing campaign, not the game content itself, and there it's very clear that the "Ms. Male Character" trope is in effect. 
 

And as to the point about "Femshep" being a diminished representation, every person I know who has played both genders has repeatedly insisted that the female version of the character was better rendered thematically, and through dialogue. I don't believe BioWare is guilty of propagating a sexist phenomenon, here, I believe they are responding to market forces, while maintaining a high level of representation and customization.

That wasn't the point the video was making. In fact, it mentioned that femShep's in-game content is not inferior and that Jennifer Hale's voice acting is widely regarded as superior. The criticism is strictly about the marketing campaign.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 novembre 2013 - 06:36 .

[Anthadlas]

EJ107 wrote...

Wraith 02 wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

Wraith 02 wrote...

Most people who buy games don't even watch every single piece of marketing or trailers and then base ingame choices of them. most play because of critic reviews and recommendations from friends.

When I played ME1 I knew nothing about Shepard, what they looked like, what gender they were, none of the background on them or the plot.

I chose Male Shepard because I am Male and I chose the default face because It looked good, simple

I'm 100% certain that the vast  majority of people who buy games see the cover, and Mass Effect's very clearly depicts the protagonist as male. 

i had no idea who the people on the cover were when I bought the game. For all I knew you could play as Shepard, Garrus and Ashley

Mass Effect 3's is a lot more obvious- with a giant picture of male Shepard and no-one else. 

Mass Effect 3 is probably one of the only games in a very long time that has had marketing aimed specifically at women.

With equal female trailers and covers with both Shepards on.

[Paul E Dangerously]

Ieldra2 wrote...
That wasn't the point the video was making. In fact, it mentioned that femShep's in-game content is not inferior and that Jennifer Hale's voice acting is widely regarded as superior. The criticism is strictly about the marketing campaign.

"Widely" on the internet, that's the same 18%ish play number that FemShep has?

I've always preferred Meer's voice over Hale's for Shep, and that's not a popular choice on the BSN, but apparently someone somewhere agrees with me.

[Anthadlas]

Sopa de Gato wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
That wasn't the point the video was making. In fact, it mentioned that femShep's in-game content is not inferior and that Jennifer Hale's voice acting is widely regarded as superior. The criticism is strictly about the marketing campaign.

"Widely" on the internet, that's the same 18%ish play number that FemShep has?

I've always preferred Meer's voice over Hale's for Shep, and that's not a popular choice on the BSN, but apparently someone somewhere agrees with me.

I do to, Hale seemed very over dramatic for a soldier and didn't suit the military type well.

However if I say this on BSN I will be crushed under comments defending her superior voice acting as fact.

[Ieldra]

Sopa de Gato wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
That wasn't the point the video was making. In fact, it mentioned that femShep's in-game content is not inferior and that Jennifer Hale's voice acting is widely regarded as superior. The criticism is strictly about the marketing campaign.

"Widely" on the internet, that's the same 18%ish play number that FemShep has?

I've always preferred Meer's voice over Hale's for Shep, and that's not a popular choice on the BSN, but apparently someone somewhere agrees with me.

I don't have any numbers, but I know quite a few male players who prefer Hale's voice acting, so I think it's more than the 18%. Also, while I admire Mark Meer as a voice actor - he's a true professional with a passion for his work and an almost uncanny range of voices - his direction played a big part in turning maleShep into a walking stereotype from ME2 onwards.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

Ieldra2 wrote...
That wasn't the point the video was making. In fact, it mentioned that femShep's in-game content is not inferior and that Jennifer Hale's voice acting is widely regarded as superior. The criticism is strictly about the marketing campaign.

I appreciate your response.

To clarify, I was not responding to the video, I was responding to the posts made in this this thread, many of which are, indeed, attributing sexist motivations to the selection of the default male character.

I dislike the idea that a default female character would somehow resolve anything, because I don't believe there is strictly an issue to be resolved, with regards to a default character (not making that point in response to you, but to a recurring point being made by others.)

And if I remember correctly, BioWare actually made a fairly big deal out of marketing the "Femshep" image for Mass Effect 3, complete with a fan interaction to assist in determing her final appearance. I don't believe this was the case for ME 1 or ME 2 (I came to the series after both games had been released, and the marketing phase was essentially over.)

I'm not opposed to expanding marketing to include representations of multiple potential protagonists, but I am opposed to the idea that a default character option could ever be realistically interpreted as a political statement.

Unless we have a legitimate reason to attribute such a motivation, I firmly believe that it is unfair to do so.

[AlexanderCousland]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Why is Male representation compared side by side with Female representation as if the two are in competition ?

Because in many cases the defining trait of the female character is that she is female. Look at Bowser's children, as shown in the video: You have the smart looking one, the goofy looking one, the crazy one, the girl one.

With Angry Birds you had gender neutral birds that were suddenly and retroactively made female because new versions came out that had girly things (bows/ribbons). As such, they established that the default was actually male.

Note, also, that Anita's video isn't a critique of advertising specifically.

Neither am I specifically talking about advertising.
Neither did I agree that Bowsers female child's  only defining characteristic was her Femaleness.
Neither do I agree with Anita, that there is a Gender Binary theory. The differences between Male and Female are clearly defined, EVEN if we didnt have things like TV and Games highlighting them. We are Not the same, different but equal.

[daveliam]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Also, the distinction is not between the people who choose maleShep vs. femShep, it's between the people who make a conscious choice and those who go with the default because it's the default. No, I'm not saying that the latter is inferior - people have priorities and for some the protagonist's details don't matter for a variety of reasons - but by not making a conscious choice *AND* thus being funnelled into the (usually) male default they become unwitting carriers of the sexist meme that the male is the default. The effect of that can be mitigated by the simple expedient of making people aware of the meme, and that's what things like Ms. Sarkeesian's video are about. It's about making people think "Hmm...I've always picked the default. Perhaps I've missed something I would've enjoyed. Let's do it differently next time"  

This paragraph nicely sums up my point.  It's pretty much exactly what Anita's point was in the video (specifically related to ME marketing, not the "Ms. Male Character" trope).  It's the idea that there was a conscious choice to make Sheploo the "default" and not the default Femshep face.  By itself, its not that big of a deal, but when it's the norm (by far and large) it begs the question of "What would it be like for the female option to be represented in marketing as the "default" choice?"

[9TailsFox]

Sopa de Gato wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
That wasn't the point the video was making. In fact, it mentioned that femShep's in-game content is not inferior and that Jennifer Hale's voice acting is widely regarded as superior. The criticism is strictly about the marketing campaign.

"Widely" on the internet, that's the same 18%ish play number that FemShep has?

I've always preferred Meer's voice over Hale's for Shep, and that's not a popular choice on the BSN, but apparently someone somewhere agrees with me.

I agree Meer 's voice acting much better. Vorcha FTW.

[daveliam]

Wraith 02 wrote...

Mass Effect 3 is probably one of the only games in a very long time that has had marketing aimed specifically at women.

With equal female trailers and covers with both Shepards on.

Am I correct, though, in pointing out that the Femshep trailer wasn't released in mass media (such as television ads) but the Maleshep version was?  I was under the impression that the Femshep trailer had a limited release.

Also, which cover was the "default" on the game?  Femshep was hidden on the back.  Why not put Femshep facing forward and let anyone who wanted to see Maleshep turn the cover around?

[Anthadlas]

9TailsFox wrote...

Sopa de Gato wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
That wasn't the point the video was making. In fact, it mentioned that femShep's in-game content is not inferior and that Jennifer Hale's voice acting is widely regarded as superior. The criticism is strictly about the marketing campaign.

"Widely" on the internet, that's the same 18%ish play number that FemShep has?

I've always preferred Meer's voice over Hale's for Shep, and that's not a popular choice on the BSN, but apparently someone somewhere agrees with me.

I agree Meer 's voice acting much better. Vorcha FTW.

Think he did the Volus too, Biotic God ftw

[Allan Schumacher]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Is it not true that the number of women in development is increasing?

If so, "continued growth" will lead directly down your preferred pathway.

I am of the opinion that the number of women in development is increasing.  And yes, I do think that increasing the diversification of those that make games will provide more perspectives and (hopefully) more variation in gaming in general.

(Side note: I'm a large fan of indie gaming scene because they can take bigger risks IMO)


Many of the women that were in my CompSci program with me also work at BioWare, actually.