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Anita Sarkeesian on Mass Effect marketing sexism, will DA:I learn from ME


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#201
Br3admax

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

My claim that characters are designed to appeal is not without merit.


Your claim is, specifically, is that most people pick default Vanderloo Shepard because his character model is the one people want to play.

I said that BioWare designed him as a character that their customers want to play as.

I'm being told that this was not the case and that they just picked a person.


You're being told that people picked default Shepard because he was the default character available. Note that this claim has as much support as your own conclusion.

While that may be true, he is default for a reason. Otherwise the default custom face would be the default. Somehow I doubt the number of people who would pick that would be the same.

Not the claim that at all.


Then you need to do a much better job of writing in a clear manner (this is the second time this has come up in as many days), because Sheploo = Mark Vanderloo Shepard to many people (myself included).  Perhaps you should have simply said "Male Shepard."

I'm talking more about the design of the character than Mark Vanderloo. You're a dev, Allan. Do you just pick faces out of hat? If you do, it's fine, it's just that I highly doubt that it's that random. But if it is, it's cool. Do you guys do that? This isn't about Vanderloo, this is about the design of the character. Why would you pick a character to look a certain way, unless it was to appeal to the consumer. Do you believe that if UglyShep were the default that people would pick it? 

Modifié par Br3ad, 19 novembre 2013 - 06:53 .


#202
The Night Mammoth

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daveliam wrote...

Also, which cover was the "default" on the game?  Femshep was hidden on the back.  Why not put Femshep facing forward and let anyone who wanted to see Maleshep turn the cover around?

Because BioWare want to sell lots of games, and maleshep appeals to more people.

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 19 novembre 2013 - 06:49 .


#203
Anthadlas

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daveliam wrote...

Wraith 02 wrote...

Mass Effect 3 is probably one of the only games in a very long time that has had marketing aimed specifically at women.

With equal female trailers and covers with both Shepards on.


Am I correct, though, in pointing out that the Femshep trailer wasn't released in mass media (such as television ads) but the Maleshep version was?  I was under the impression that the Femshep trailer had a limited release.

Also, which cover was the "default" on the game?  Femshep was hidden on the back.  Why not put Femshep facing forward and let anyone who wanted to see Maleshep turn the cover around?


It's still better than nothing. I don't know why Bioware gets such a hard time over sexism when they actually try.
Then you see franchises like CoD that don't even bother and get no flak at all for it.

#204
Abraham_uk

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Will we have a Male Inquisitor and Female Inquisitor trailer?

Modifié par Abraham_uk, 19 novembre 2013 - 06:52 .


#205
Dr. Tim Whatley

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What's going on here?

#206
Allan Schumacher

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FreshIstay wrote...

Neither am I specifically talking about advertising.
Neither did I agree that Bowsers female child's  only defining characteristic was her Femaleness.
Neither do I agree with Anita, that there is a Gender Binary theory. The differences between Male and Female are clearly defined, EVEN if we didnt have things like TV and Games highlighting them. We are Not the same, different but equal.



Not everyone's going to agree.  We are not the same, different but equal, doesn't mean that women should have bows in their hair, lipstick, and pink colours to make sure it's clear that it's a female character as far as I'm concerned.

Further, I didn't say "only" defining characteristic.  But it is her master status.  Her entire appearance is "She's a girl" whereas the others have other nuances to their characteristics.

At this point I think this particular discussion is over.  We won't agree.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 19 novembre 2013 - 06:54 .


#207
Anthadlas

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b00g13man wrote...

What's going on here?


Science!!

#208
Steelcan

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Are there any stats available for the breakdown of DA character gender preferences?


The ME one shows something rather interesting and I'm curious if the DA stats match or have a more equal distribution, or a more unequal distribution.

#209
Ieldra

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Jeremiah12LGeek wrote...
I'm not opposed to expanding marketing to include representations of multiple potential protagonists, but I am opposed to the idea that a default character option could ever be realistically interpreted as a political statement.

Unless we have a legitimate reason to attribute such a motivation, I firmly believe that it is unfair to do so.

Memes work completely without motivation. You may have someone at EA make a decision about using the male protagonist for marketing without any motivation rooted in gender politics. It may even be a genuinely progressive person. If a cultural meme is dominant, all that it takes to propagate it is to not think about it. Thus, awareness is needed to challenge it, for otherwise it would continue to propagate itself.

Challenging it, too, doesn't need to be a political statement. It can be as simple as DA2's character selection screen with all six options - three per gender - present on the same screen.

#210
David7204

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Have people considered the deeper reasons as to why male combative characters appeal over female combative characters? Deeper than 'we're all sexist'?

#211
Anthadlas

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David7204 wrote...

Have people considered the deeper reasons as to why male combative characters appeal over female combative characters? Deeper than 'we're all sexist'?


Probably because soldiers in armies have historically been male dominated?

#212
daveliam

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Wraith 02 wrote...

It's still better than nothing. I don't know why Bioware gets such a hard time over sexism when they actually try.
Then you see franchises like CoD that don't even bother and get no flak at all for it.


That raises a few interesting points.  First, I want to say that I'm not saying that Bioware is being overtly sexist.  I'm saying that perhaps they should think about the message that their marketing choices are sending.  I LOVE Bioware and fully support them as one of the most inclusive developers out there.  I think they do an amazing job and, maybe just my opinion, I truly think that they are actively thinking about issues of diversity in their game development now.  I'm not giving them a hard time, in fact, I applaud them for it. 

That being said, the idea that "it's still better than nothing" is interesting to me.  What if they reversed the advertising for all of their games going forward and only highlighted the female characters, relegating the males to "bonus" materials?  After twenty years of this, you might be excited to see a male character get highlighted instead.  And if you went on a message board and voiced that you were happy that after twenty years, they are finally starting to highlight male characters in marketing, how you would you feel if a woman told you that you should be happy with whatever they give you because "it's better than nothing."?  I believe THAT is the point that Anita was making on behalf of some female gamers (not all). 

#213
AlexanderCousland

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

Fact of the matter is that most game developers are male. So we get the generalised and perfect view on men from a male perspective and also perfect women from a male perspective. Hence why most are always attractive.


This isn't a good thing, and is much more reflective of a HOST of very serious issues (right down to how a lot of people treat women in technology). It also helps cement a self-fulfilling prophecy.

As a gamer and a developer, I see this as bad for the continued growth and diversification of gaming.


Why is it Bad? More Men decided to work in technology then Female's do. Is it bad for nursing that More Females choose that profession? What's happening is that Men are being asked to take special consideration for Female's on the basis of them being Female, while simultaneously being asked not treat them differently because they are Female. It's quite confusing. We must highlight the fact Men don't exactly treat each other with dignity and respect in the workplace either, so this should be a human thing Not "Bad Male" treating "Victim Female" the wrong way.

#214
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

I am of the opinion that the number of women in development is increasing.  And yes, I do think that increasing the diversification of those that make games will provide more perspectives and (hopefully) more variation in gaming in general.

(Side note: I'm a large fan of indie gaming scene because they can take bigger risks IMO)


Many of the women that were in my CompSci program with me also work at BioWare, actually.


you work with the people you went to school with? that's neat.

#215
Br3admax

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David7204 wrote...

Have people considered the deeper reasons as to why male combative characters appeal over female combative characters? Deeper than 'we're all sexist'?

This is definitely a gender role thing, so I wouldn't look much farther for another reason. Women can be just as capable fighters as men in this regard. 

#216
Allan Schumacher

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While that may be true, he is default for a reason. Otherwise the default custom face would be the default. Somehow I doubt the number of people who would pick that would be the same.


A supposition. We don't know. And can't know. It's an untestable hypothesis and what I was trying to illustrate is a belief on the same standings as someone that believes otherwise. You don't have greater substantiation to your belief.

And yes, I think if default custom face was the face of our marketing, you'd get people picking it at a higher rate than others. But this is my belief and it isn't any more valid than yours, or Rinji's, or whatever.

#217
Guest_Aotearas_*

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First off, didn't read the entire thread, this response is solely based on the OP. Secondly, for anyone who thinks it would make a difference, I am male:


First choice of words for Mrs. Anita Sarkeesian argumentation: biased nitpicking.
The ME marketing does not mean male Shepard is the default way to play the game, the marketing has in fact always emphasized that the player has control over how to play the game and it has likewise always mentioned the fact you can choose between a male or a female protagonist.
And the simple reason that marketing shows the male Shepard is that the target audience, the gamers are still mostly male. Using male Shepard is a simple mathematic equation of reaching the largest portion of the target audience with minimum ressources used. Making an extra wallpaper/lithograph/poster/flyer/etc. with a female Shepard on top of that simply inflates the costs associated with marketing for very little return (because female gamers did buy the series too, despite not having a marketing campaign focusing on female Shepard, so it's not like BioWare would have anything to gain from doubling the costs for an allround marketing). Add to that the simply problem of how to make trailers for both sexes. Do you make two different trailers showcasing both Shepards? If so how do you decide which ones to show when? Or do you make a single trailer showcasing both Shepards and risk a confusing audience if they didn't know that that man and that woman on the screen are the same protagonist?



And just to drive my initial point of "biased nitpicking home" when she mentioned male Shepard being exclusively on all covers of the games, she did forego the ME3 CE cover that also boasts the female Shepard on the other side, whilst still showcasing the male side on her little background picture. That is most definately NOT the product of an objective argumentation!

To add to that point, "Shepard and Fem!Shep" is a distinctioned coined by the fanbasem which, the shock, does consist of male AND female gamers. Nevermind that the point is inaccurate, because the distinction has always been "Sheploo and Fem!Shep" on the basis that the default male Shepard is modelled after Mark Vanderloo and the female Shepard had no such remarkeble similarities with a real person, hence simply Fem!Shep. Now, that's something that she could discuss instead, why doesn't Fem!Shep have a model compared to Sheploo. That would have been a valid point compared to the one she tried to make.

I'm sorry, but with such blatant mistakes and disregard for the most simple of economics, I don't respect her argumentation at all. She's not providing a viable discussion, she's nitpicking based on her bias.



As for the OPs own point:

The default has to be chosen. So what if it's male? Would changing the default to a statistically averaged female default make any difference? Wouldn't it in fact not simply turn the situation upside down and open grounds for male gamers to note the lack of default association with their sex? I don't see this as an issue at all. Defaults are defaults, there has to be one and it can only be one, it's a technical limitation of the choice-system, period.

As for "feeling" like male or female:
What keeps you from feeling as female or male? I play pletny of female characters in games where I have the choice and I don't have any difficulty tapping into my character in a way that makes me feel her identity as distinctively female as opposed to when I play a male character.
And if we're simply talking marketing again, I had no trouble to navigate Mirror's Edge despite the protagonist being exclusively female.

So where exactly is the problem?

#218
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

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Abraham_uk wrote...

Will we have a Male Inquisitor and Female Inquisitor trailer?


i'd imagine that's a question of finances and exposure, not a social one.

(my argument)

#219
Ravensword

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EntropicAngel wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I am of the opinion that the number of women in development is increasing.  And yes, I do think that increasing the diversification of those that make games will provide more perspectives and (hopefully) more variation in gaming in general.

(Side note: I'm a large fan of indie gaming scene because they can take bigger risks IMO)


Many of the women that were in my CompSci program with me also work at BioWare, actually.


you work with the people you went to school with? that's neat.


You may see some classmates when you're working for Pfizer or Bayer.

#220
Darth Death

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BioWare has done a lot of messed up things over the years that led to my disapproval of them, but honestly, in this special occasion I must defend whatever honor they have left. This Anita woman is out of her mind & I highly suggest no one take her words with mindful consideration. She immediately comes off as an ingrate, completely undermining BioWare's efforts to established the female gender prevalence in their games. BioWare was well within their power to exclude Femshep from ME, potentially saving them money. Did they? No, they didn't.

BioWare was also well within their power to exclude Femshep from ME's marketing campaign entirely. Did they? No, they didn't. BioWare even went out of their way to display both male & female shep on the ME3 box cover.

The feminist gamer will never be satisfied with the efforts concerning BioWare. They don't appreciate the fact they're allowed to play as a women in-game. Their appetency for more is a bottomless pit.

#221
Cainhurst Crow

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Personally as long as we don't force more people into one field while forcing others out of that same field I don't think we'll have a problem with equality or equal representation. You can't force fairness through imposed numbers, it has to occur on its own at its own pace to avoid problems.

#222
Steelcan

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David7204 wrote...

Have people considered the deeper reasons as to why male combative characters appeal over female combative characters? Deeper than 'we're all sexist'?

I'm being completely serious with my response
.


Is it because we as a culture associate traditional 'heroism' with a male protagonists?  And have done so for thousands of years?

#223
Anthadlas

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daveliam wrote...

Wraith 02 wrote...

It's still better than nothing. I don't know why Bioware gets such a hard time over sexism when they actually try.
Then you see franchises like CoD that don't even bother and get no flak at all for it.


That raises a few interesting points.  First, I want to say that I'm not saying that Bioware is being overtly sexist.  I'm saying that perhaps they should think about the message that their marketing choices are sending.  I LOVE Bioware and fully support them as one of the most inclusive developers out there.  I think they do an amazing job and, maybe just my opinion, I truly think that they are actively thinking about issues of diversity in their game development now.  I'm not giving them a hard time, in fact, I applaud them for it. 

That being said, the idea that "it's still better than nothing" is interesting to me.  What if they reversed the advertising for all of their games going forward and only highlighted the female characters, relegating the males to "bonus" materials?  After twenty years of this, you might be excited to see a male character get highlighted instead.  And if you went on a message board and voiced that you were happy that after twenty years, they are finally starting to highlight male characters in marketing, how you would you feel if a woman told you that you should be happy with whatever they give you because "it's better than nothing."?  I believe THAT is the point that Anita was making on behalf of some female gamers (not all). 


Progress doesn't happen overnight. People should be happy that the face of gaming is changing to a more gender equal state rather than complaining that it isn't happening at the pace they want it to.

Imagine if you were unable to walk, If you started taking a few steps you should encourage it and be happy with the fact that it is working towards a better overall goal.
Instead most feminists are of the idea that you should start kicking the person to make them walk faster.

It might seem a bit arrogant but you should be happy with what you are given, That isn't to say that you don't deserve more but that progress is being made.

Modifié par Wraith 02, 19 novembre 2013 - 07:04 .


#224
Allan Schumacher

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Wraith 02 wrote...

It's still better than nothing. I don't know why Bioware gets such a hard time over sexism when they actually try.
Then you see franchises like CoD that don't even bother and get no flak at all for it.


I don't think BioWare gets a hard time for things such as sexism.

We might get scrutiny because attempts are made at doing various things (whether gender identification, sexual orientation, or whatnot) but I actually get the impression that a lot of people really appreciate it.  Like a lot a lot. Especially at something like PAX where it comes up a lot.


Simply asking for increased representation of women in our prerelease is simply "Hey this is something that I would like" and honestly it comes across as No Big Deal™ to make such a request.

#225
Volus Warlord

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Why do you guys gobble up her con artistry shlock? She's only in it for the dough.