177 réponses à ce sujet

[RavenholmeCP42]

The Angry One wrote...

lokiarchetype wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Given their high popularity among males in the ME universe (hello, Asari "gentlemen's clubs" Asari prostitues consorts, etc.) if they had male parts, we'd know.

Not true at all.  Your knowledge of biology is limited if you think that.  There are plenty of organisms that have male reproductive organs without them being visible. 
You're assuming 'male' Asari reproductive organs would be external and phallic like a human's, but that doesn't even remain true on our planet, let alone other planets.

I assume that based on the fact that every single other aspect of an Asari resembles a human.
Or you can explain to me why a life form with a humanoid body, human style breasts and a human equivalent female sexual organ is going to magically have a fish's male sexual organ.

No biological reason for that not to happen, parallel evolution of some traits doesn't mean that you end up at the same destination. Ducks only have cloacal openings, yet swans and geese have penises. Though, we're not saying that they do have the sex organs of male fish, we're merely using it as an argument as "They exhibit female sexual characteristics, they must be female!". See my early comment about ducklings and cygnets.

[RavenholmeCP42]

The Angry One wrote...

RavenholmeCP42 wrote...

Except there has to be some pseudo-biological explanation ingame, and it is to do with biotics and the like. And yes, I'm saying that they are superficially female, and regarded as such by bi-sex organisms, but the term female would only have been introduced to them by other species, as they would likely have very little frame of reference. And as mentioned, it's even in the bloody game that an Asari mentions that referring to them as female is not strictly true. Which, I'm afraid, automatically trumps you, since it's from the writers themselves in that case.

When an Asari claims that they are not female in the strictest sense, then uses the term mother for their biological mother while having some trouble with the term "father" for their biological father, I call bullcrap on their claim. Sorry.

You're forgetting that this is translation by a subcutaneous implant. It's probably couching things in terms we understand so the heads of our poor soldiers don't explode in confusion.

[lokiarchetype]

I assume that based on the fact that every single other aspect of an Asari resembles a human.
Or you can explain to me why a life form with a humanoid body, human style breasts and a human equivalent female sexual organ is going to magically have a fish's male sexual organ.

Well, I can go either way with this.

1.  You're just assuming based on what you've seen that similarities will continue, which isn't a very strong argument.  They have decidedly non-human scalp regions and their eyes turn black.

2.  Let's say, for the sake of argument, the Asari have what looks exactly like a female vulva. 
On the human female, the clitoris is what would've become a penis if the baby was male.  The testes only descend because in humans the body heat is too high from the gametes. 
On the Asari, the 'clitoris' could be a functioning penis and the testes could be recessed above it and you'd never know the difference.  They could have that function without any significant change in appearance.

[Arrtis]

well in term of biology we dont really have a layout of what their insides look like...so lets stop know and agree speaking from visual sight alone they are female.

[Kohaku]

The Angry One wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...

Don't worry about it....ME2 only has proper heterosexual romances...as it should be. This is the single greatest improvement from ME1 to ME2. Maybe BioWare is finally learning how to make proper relationships in games now.

Spoken like a true hater. There is nothing more or less proper about gay romances than there are about heterosexual.
If there are only hetero romances in ME2 it speaks only of BioWare's moral cowardice.

Everytime I've seen him I don't think he's had anything postive to say about anything.

Eventhough I'm not gay I find it funny that the only romances that are "proper" is herosexual. But that is neither here nor there.

[Yojimboo]

Arrtis wrote...

they are female
They give birth to the child=female
maybe the end?

Wow, asexuells also give birth and still aren't female.

You can only use the term female if both genders exist. Angry One can try as hard as he wants, he/she is wrong.

[The Angry One]

RavenholmeCP42 wrote...

No biological reason for that not to happen, parallel evolution of some traits doesn't mean that you end up at the same destination. Ducks only have cloacal openings, yet swans and geese have penises. Though, we're not saying that they do have the sex organs of male fish, we're merely using it as an argument as "They exhibit female sexual characteristics, they must be female!". See my early comment about ducklings and cygnets.

Some traits? Try all traits. Except for funky head dressings and skin colour we're exactly the same.
And considering they describe themselves as monogendered that rather rules out hermaphrodism anyway, no?

[Naltair]

I wish this subject would die, not every game has to be a champion of equal rights in all measures. There are times to pick your fights and this may not be the best venue.

[The Angry One]

RavenholmeCP42 wrote...

You're forgetting that this is translation by a subcutaneous implant. It's probably couching things in terms we understand so the heads of our poor soldiers don't explode in confusion.

You're missing the point that Liara has no trouble or pause describing her mother as her mother, yet only uses the term father for Shepard's sake in a "I suppose father is the term you'd use." manner.

[RavenholmeCP42]

Yojimboo wrote...

Arrtis wrote...

they are female
They give birth to the child=female
maybe the end?

Wow, asexuells also give birth and still aren't female.

You can only use the term female if both genders exist. Angry One can try as hard as he wants, he/she is wrong.

Thank you, now I'm off back to revise, got a genetics and an ecology exam to revise for

Edit
TAO, again that could simply be the translation implant covering for a term it has no real analogue for by applying a human definition that fits and helps us feel comfortable as we view them as purely female, whether that is correct or not (And for the record, it isn't. Not according to the devs, codex, and conversation ingame). The asari probably feel it is easier to use feminine terms for everything when dealing with every other race that has two genders/sexes, because it makes things slightly easier for them to swallow.

Modifié par RavenholmeCP42, 20 janvier 2010 - 02:12 .

[SurfaceBeneath]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

Everyone else likes to preach theirs and the self righteousness is a bit over the top. I simply add a bit of counterbalance where it is much needed.

Black, Asian, Irish, and Jewish people are generally pretty cool people who do not deserve to be descriminated against because of their skin color, region or origin, or beliefs.

Counterbalance me.

[Naltair]

I think her, Liara's, usage of gender specific terms is for the benefit of the player. I still see them as mono-gendered and alien and therefore falling outside the scope of human terms of sexuality.

[The Angry One]

This wouldn't explain Liara's personal unease and unfamiliarity with using male terms to describe an Asari.

[RavenholmeCP42]

Naltair wrote...

I think her, Liara's, usage of gender specific terms is for the benefit of the player. I still see them as mono-gendered and alien and therefore falling outside the scope of human terms of sexuality.

Agreed.

Edit;
Of course it would explain that, TAO. Because everyone associates them with females, that'd be the terms they'd be most comfortable with using. The issue of sex/gender is something of a non-issue to them, so they just use the terms which everyone applies to them and finds it easiest to deal with - which is to say, female.

Modifié par RavenholmeCP42, 20 janvier 2010 - 02:17 .

[Halie Star]

OK, like the world runs around in total ignorance. We all know that same sex couples have been around forever.  I am a girl, and romance the men, but if you choose a same sex situation, it's your game, and no one will see it but you. It's all about choices, as most RPG's.

[Naltair]

The Angry One wrote...

This wouldn't explain Liara's personal unease and unfamiliarity with using male terms to describe an Asari.

Why not to her species such notions of gender would have no meaning.  She even says as much, perhaps the Codex calls them female but Liara is very specific in this regard and lays it out plainly when you talk to her about asari reproduction.

[Naltair]

RavenholmeCP42 wrote...

Naltair wrote...

I think her, Liara's, usage of gender specific terms is for the benefit of the player. I still see them as mono-gendered and alien and therefore falling outside the scope of human terms of sexuality.

Agreed.

Edit;
Of course it would explain that, TAO. Because everyone associates them with females, that'd be the terms they'd be most comfortable with using. The issue of sex/gender is something of a non-issue to them, so they just use the terms which everyone applies to them and finds it easiest to deal with - which is to say, female.

Your edit was a better explanation and I agree.

[Yojimboo]

Halie Star wrote...

OK, like the world runs around in total ignorance. We all know that same sex couples have been around forever.  I am a girl, and romance the men, but if you choose a same sex situation, it's your game, and no one will see it but you. It's all about choices, as most RPG's.

No one is talking about homophobes.

We just try to clarify something.

[TheAnima]

Keltoris wrote...

Where do you find that many kittens?!

[Halie Star]

Yojimboo wrote...

Halie Star wrote...

OK, like the world runs around in total ignorance. We all know that same sex couples have been around forever.  I am a girl, and romance the men, but if you choose a same sex situation, it's your game, and no one will see it but you. It's all about choices, as most RPG's.

No one is talking about homophobes.

We just try to clarify something.

Clarify what, from what I get Liara is both, she is very young, and I don't think there are men, in her race.
Excuse me if  I am out of line, the first post  read could be more than one meaning. At least to me.

[RavenholmeCP42]

Naltair wrote...

RavenholmeCP42 wrote...

Naltair wrote...

I think her, Liara's, usage of gender specific terms is for the benefit of the player. I still see them as mono-gendered and alien and therefore falling outside the scope of human terms of sexuality.

Agreed.

Edit;
Of course it would explain that, TAO. Because everyone associates them with females, that'd be the terms they'd be most comfortable with using. The issue of sex/gender is something of a non-issue to them, so they just use the terms which everyone applies to them and finds it easiest to deal with - which is to say, female.

Your edit was a better explanation and I agree.

Thank you, although this is developing beyond mere biology and into the realms of psychology as well. ^^

Edit:

We're clarifying that you can't really apply the concepts of male/female to the Asari, and Liara even admits that female is not a strictly accurate term for her.

Modifié par RavenholmeCP42, 20 janvier 2010 - 02:31 .

[Yojimboo]

Halie Star wrote...

Yojimboo wrote...

Halie Star wrote...

OK, like the world runs around in total ignorance. We all know that same sex couples have been around forever.  I am a girl, and romance the men, but if you choose a same sex situation, it's your game, and no one will see it but you. It's all about choices, as most RPG's.

No one is talking about homophobes.

We just try to clarify something.

Clarify what, from what I get Liara is both, she is very young, and I don't think there are men, in her race.
Excuse me if  I am out of line, the first post  read could be more than one meaning. At least to me.

As far as i understood your post, you where talking about the debate if this would be a homosexuell relationship or not. We on the other hand want to clarify what gender Liara really is.

[paysage]

I realize that it's a story written by current-day humans and that we see the story through a current-day, earthbound lens. I also think that allowing as many players as possible to experience the romance stuff in a way that resonates with them is important (although, I'll concede that time and resources are a consideration and that quality vs. quantity is a necessary consideration).



So given all of that, this is a bit of an aside...BUT whenever the Asari thing comes up, I can't help but think, "if I were actually in the 2180s with interstellar travel and aliens and all that, I'd probably be categorizing these relationships primarily in terms of their xenosexuality rather than their ******- or heterosexuality." That's not to say there isn't a sex-based aspect of the pairing, but if you only let me pick one modifier, I'd say xenosexual over hetero- or homosexual, especially in cases like the Asari.

[RavenholmeCP42]

We're not being homophobic, just pointing out that the relationship isn't truly homosexual. Xenophiliac, but not homosexual. And it wouldn't matter even if it was, we're just drawing attention to the fact that what Casey Hudson said about no F/F romances in ME1 was strictly true. It wasn't an F/F romance, it was a Human/Asari relationship, irrespective of the Human's sex.

Edit:

Ha! High-five Paysage, you posted a more indepth version of what I was just saying at roughly the same time.

Modifié par RavenholmeCP42, 20 janvier 2010 - 02:36 .

[ArcanistLibram]

The Asari themselves cannot have any concept of gender. Their language shouldn't even have any gender differentiation. Any concept of gender they might have would have been adopted from other species and for the purpose of communicating with other species.



Humans do have a concept of gender and the Asari fit the general norms of femininity. Humans refer to the Asari as female because it's more convenient for them, not because it's accurate.