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Every time a dev says there were no F/F romances in ME...


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#151
lokiarchetype

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The Angry One wrote...

Look at the sexism I have to deal with! Cause men are never stubborn right?


You think you have it bad, how do you think the Asari feel?

Don't worry.  Plenty of us that are arguing with you don't see you as a woman or a man, just someone who is wrong.  

For we are a cold, calculating type, who care only about objective correctness and facts, regardless of any emotional considerations that may be connected to the issue.

*empty stare*

I'm sure your intentions are good, though, if you want a consolation ribbon or something...

#152
Naltair

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If there are no same sex relationships that means Samara is fair game for the female Shepherd.

#153
Houkka

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The Angry One wrote...

False analogy, your comparison would be more like Darth Vader saying "Hey, I'm not technically a guy in a big black suit."


Only if Liara had said "I'm not blue." Because color and clothing are generally things that we can actually determine from what we see and hear in Mass Effect and Star Wars. Sex, on the other hand, is not. You can't determine a creature's sex just by seeing the creature on a tv screen. Or would you argue that platypus are male because they're so damn hairy? Females tend to shave, so all hairy creatures must be male.

You argue that a work of fiction has content different from what the content of the work is. That, my friend, makes no sense.

#154
RavenholmeCP42

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Mudzr wrote...

Personally I believe that Casey only intended to reveal two of each romances for each gender, so Miranda, SuZe, Jacob and Thane are confirmed.
The "There is no lesbian option like ME1" comment may have been a hint since we all know there was and therefore there could be a lesbian option in ME2 but if he confirmed it there and then, then that would have narrowed down the final female romance option more than he would have liked.


There wasn't though, there was a xenosexual romance for a race that essentially has no sexual differentiation, and for whom gender is an irrelevancy. The relationship wasn't a lesbian one. And that's what Casey Hudson was meaning, which then casts doubt on a lesbian or gay relationship in ME2.

Especially since way back, they also said that returning ME1 characters who were popular and unromanceable would be this time around, which heavily hints at Garrus and Tali (At least, I live in hope it does, xenophilia all the way)

#155
Yojimboo

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Naltair wrote...

If there are no same sex relationships that means Samara is fair game for the female Shepherd.


Now we can start the debate about she beeing a Justicar and swore to never bear children (means no sex at all) to she can still have the sensation of flesh.

#156
ScroguBlitzen

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That WAS pretty weak of Casey to say that there was no Female/Female sex in ME1.



He could have been clear and said there was no Female Human + Female Human sex.



Or he could have said that there IS inter-species sex. Xenosex? Xeniality?



btw- There is no point arguing whether or not Asari are "Female" unless you provide a detailed definition of it.



If you define "Female" as the one who carries children then: Yes, Asari are female (but so are "male" seahorses.)

If you define "Female" as the one with the largest zygotes (egg cells) then: No, this has no meaning for a mono-gendered race, since they all have the same sized eggs, or possibly breed by "budding" without ever having a single staged cell, we have no way of knowing.

If you define "Female" as having nice breasts and a feminine body and voice, then: Yes, they are definitely Female.

#157
Naltair

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I would xenophile all over Tali scientifically speaking.

#158
RavenholmeCP42

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ScroguBlitzen wrote...

That WAS pretty weak of Casey to say that there was no Female/Female sex in ME1.

He could have been clear and said there was no Female Human + Female Human sex.

Or he could have said that there IS inter-species sex. Xenosex? Xeniality?

btw- There is no point arguing whether or not Asari are "Female" unless you provide a detailed definition of it.

If you define "Female" as the one who carries children then: Yes, Asari are female (but so are "male" seahorses.)
If you define "Female" as the one with the largest zygotes (egg cells) then: No, this has no meaning for a mono-gendered race, since they all have the same sized eggs, or possibly breed by "budding" without ever having a single staged cell, we have no way of knowing.
If you define "Female" as having nice breasts and a feminine body and voice, then: Yes, they are definitely Female.


I believe that Casey Hudson was using the second definition and the fourth which you've missed out, which is to a monogendered race (Which they are), definitions of male/female are something of an irrelevancy, and their own unique biology blurs the lines even further, which means that your entire basis for defining them as female comes down to visual/external characteristics entirely. (Hermaphrodites and asexuals can bear children/lay eggs in nature, doesn't mean that they are female, technically speaking..)

Edit:

Oh yeah Naltair, absolutely.

Modifié par RavenholmeCP42, 20 janvier 2010 - 03:22 .


#159
Yojimboo

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ScroguBlitzen wrote...

That WAS pretty weak of Casey to say that there was no Female/Female sex in ME1.

He could have been clear and said there was no Female Human + Female Human sex.

Or he could have said that there IS inter-species sex. Xenosex? Xeniality?

btw- There is no point arguing whether or not Asari are "Female" unless you provide a detailed definition of it.

If you define "Female" as the one who carries children then: Yes, Asari are female (but so are "male" seahorses.)
If you define "Female" as the one with the largest zygotes (egg cells) then: No, this has no meaning for a mono-gendered race, since they all have the same sized eggs, or possibly breed by "budding" without ever having a single staged cell, we have no way of knowing.
If you define "Female" as having nice breasts and a feminine body and voice, then: Yes, they are definitely Female.


How can you define something yourself if there is already a definition?

So basicly if you say "this forum has black background" and i say "no no this background is definitly red" my definition would be correct because it's mine?

#160
Guaritor

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Bah can't find the damn delete post button

Modifié par Guaritor, 20 janvier 2010 - 03:22 .


#161
Zurcior

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Houkka wrote...

Angry One, your argument that asari are female, when an asari in the game specifically says they aren't, is ignorant. It's like arguing that

Spoiler
I'm sorry, but you really don't have a say in the fact of this matter. Whatever the writer wrote, he wrote! It's as simple as that.

That AND I believe the explanations by the poeple with knowledge of biology were pretty damn plausible. It should be common sense that if there's only one sex, there's no point in describing its differences with the other one. BECAUSE THERE IS NO OTHER ONE!


I don't get what you are trying to say here. Are you assuming that there is a possibility that there will be a homosexual overgrowth and that it will lead to a significant population decrease? If you are, I should let you know that homosexuals have been around since the beginning of human civilization and we are still overpopulated. It's not like they've just recently popped out of nowhere.

#162
Drake Averrod

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I'd say it doesn't matter if Asari are female or not, in order to have a homosexual femshep (btw.: I don't consider Asari female). Due to the female appearance of the Asari who simply look similiar to human women, a femshep as a human who feels attracted to an Asari has ultimately to be considered lesbian/bisexual.



So I'd say there are no f/f encounters but your femshep can be homosexual.

#163
Revan312

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SurfaceBeneath wrote...

...you do understand that Earth can not actually sustain a much greatly human population than it has currently right? Without advances in the bioengineering of plants and the advancement of agriculture, there is literally not enough land in the world to feed everyone. A stagnating population is not necessarily a bad thing when your population is stressed for resources.


I just wanted to throw my two cents in, actually that's a misunderstanding, the reason people starve and there isn't enough food or resources (minus perhaps oil/coal, energy resources) is because of the imposed scarcity of resources.  The Earth has MORE than enough land to support sufficiant farming yet economies don't make a profit off feeding the world.  When resources are forcefully lowered, e.g subsidizing farmers to NOT grow food simply to drive prices higher (which happens all the time), it becomes quite obvious that the entire issue of resource managment is purely an economic game.  Markets and economies don't make a profit off being humanitarian, they make a profit off keeping prices stabilized and billing middle class citizens.  In reality, if farming throughout the entire world was completely subsidized, there would be no starvation or famine. 

Now I'm not saying there's not enough people, because we have more than enough and the constant increase in global population only strains the already rocky third world.  I just wanted to clarify that the issue of food is an imposed issue for nothing more than monetary gain.

On topic, I will say Chris's comments were a bit gutless as it is obvious that if it walks, talks, looks and acts like a woman, it's a woman, so yes, there was a F/F romance in the first ME.  Personally I think Bioware is trying to play both sides but whatever.  At this point I think Samara is a LI so the same thing is going to happen, a F/F romance.

One last thing, If an entire society we're made of gay men and woman, it could still easily sustain a population with today's technology, it's called artificial insemination.  Now I'm not gonna get into the logistics and what if's of that setup, I'm just throwing that out there.

#164
Houkka

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Zurcior wrote...

Houkka wrote...

Angry One, your argument that asari are female, when an asari in the game specifically says they aren't, is ignorant. It's like arguing that

Spoiler
I'm sorry, but you really don't have a say in the fact of this matter. Whatever the writer wrote, he wrote! It's as simple as that.

That AND I believe the explanations by the poeple with knowledge of biology were pretty damn plausible. It should be common sense that if there's only one sex, there's no point in describing its differences with the other one. BECAUSE THERE IS NO OTHER ONE!


I don't get what you are trying to say here. Are you assuming that there is a possibility that there will be a homosexual overgrowth and that it will lead to a significant population decrease? If you are, I should let you know that homosexuals have been around since the beginning of human civilization and we are still overpopulated. It's not like they've just recently popped out of nowhere.


Wait, what? I haven't even mentioned homosexuality. And no, I don't think the humankind is going to end because of a sudden overflow of homos. I completely agree with you, homosexuality is as common now as it was 500 years ago, people have just finally started to realise how normal it is.

#165
Wynne

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As a number of people have been saying, we have no proper terminology for the asari because we never encountered anything like them before. This is science fiction.

Liara herself says, "mono-gendered--male and female have no real meaning for us" and "I am not precisely a woman." They are referred to as female because they look female, but they are not technically female because there is no gender-division. Call shenanigans if you like, but what Liara says goes because it's her motherfrakking species. I think she knows better than we do what her body is like; it resembles a human woman's but clearly is not the same, unless some of us are sitting here typing with head tentacles and can psychically reproduce instead of physically doing so.

Granted, it's a fine difference. Granted, for all intents and purposes, to us they ARE female. But science fiction is a chance for people to set their inhibitions aside simply because they are dealing with something new and different which requires an open mind to be enjoyed. Science fiction is a chance for people to accept something they wouldn't normally accept, simply because it's set slightly outside the cultural norms. There is no verse in a holy book which says, "and you shall not have sex with hot blue aliens of female appearance who are not actually technically female." In such an environment, it's much harder to hate and fear what you don't understand. It becomes something that you make an exception for, even if you didn't expect to. You feel like your guard should be up, but for once, it's not. There's a window open in your mind that normally would be closed.

You let in new thoughts. The kind of thoughts which are perfectly logical and rational, but that maybe don't fit what was drummed into your head growing up.

Some people grow up brainwashed. Some people need time to heal from that, and they won't do so if you frighten them away from the truth. Rip the burka off a Middle-Eastern woman's head and all you'll have is a scared human being who feels humiliated and ashamed. If someone knows nothing of a concept such as personal empowerment, the last thing that will help is to make them feel powerless in yet another way. It has to be their choice, their decision to reject the cultural norms they grew up with. People have to learn on their own to reject what they've been taught. You don't help them by shoving things in their face that they're not ready for and shouting them down when they react as they've been taught. You have to start small, encourage them to think for themselves. You don't start by studying calculus, you start with simple addition. Going straight from the womb to calculus is simply not possible. Neither is transcending the consequences of your personal history. No one is born enlightened.

Everybody has the right to think what they want. To be angry as hell at Bioware, even, and I can't really blame you if you are mad. They didn't stick up for what they promote. They dodged the issue. They got political and Clintoned it up.

But my recommendation is... save your anger until you play the game and you are SURE that there is not even a shadow of a homosexual romance, or that it's lacking for males. And even then, even if you're disgusted and outraged that they weren't braver and they didn't push the envelope any further than they did in the first game, please compare them with developers who do absolutely NOTHING for gay people, and be happy that they're at least opening minds by doing something outside the box. Getting a foot in the door can be a pretty big deal, when it comes to people who have never been forced to deal with their own ignorance--and who might never do so without that example lingering in their head. Dragon Age already featured fully-fledged homosexual romances for both genders. Mass Effect is doing something else... something just as valuable... reaching people who are on the fence and maybe a bit homophobic to look at love and sex in a new way instead of treading the same old paths in their heads.

The church I went to growing up was highly intolerant. Their teachings damaged my personality and my view of the world, and my early experiences with lesbians were solely in fiction, never in life. I still feel that the lesbian romance on BtVS was pretty poorly executed. I believe it was actually Bioware that gave me my first positive literary experience with a homosexual relationship between the main character and Juhani. Sure, Juhani was... well, a major butterface... but she was a well-written and nicely voiced alien character.

For what it's worth... that helped me. I preferred Carth, and it wasn't a fraction as much fun as romancing the princess in Jade Empire a few years later, but it helped to open my mind a little. They snatched all my old rules out from under me and forced me to think from a new perspective about what I, personally, accepted as being okay for human beings. And I realized that applying old testament laws to modern day society in a literal fashion was something that seemed... nonsensical. What I'm saying is, my experience in a game was an instrumental step in coming to that realization.

Subtle and careful subversion of established cultural norms may not be as impressive as bold statements of acceptance, but it's pretty damned effective if you're looking to get people to reevaluate their beliefs and possibly come to a new realization, instead of simply flipping the off switch as they've always done.

Modifié par Wynne, 20 janvier 2010 - 04:19 .


#166
Wynne

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  ...

Modifié par Wynne, 20 janvier 2010 - 04:19 .


#167
Arrtis

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I do not understand homosexuality...makes no sense to me...Just like how some women find thane attractive...lizard fish alien....I do not understand it at all.

Also Asari are female...to the rest of the galaxy....you know it...is true...

#168
Wynne

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Some people hate chocolate or beer. I don't have to understand it. I just have to accept their right to refuse those things and to eat or drink something else instead.

#169
Revan312

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Arrtis wrote...

I do not understand homosexuality...makes no sense to me...Just like how some women find thane attractive...lizard fish alien....I do not understand it at all.
Also Asari are female...to the rest of the galaxy....you know it...is true...


I'm hetero and I agree, I don't understand it, but I also don't understand religious beliefs or some parenting methods or why Indonesian tribes love the ocean to such an extent that they are physically different from us (some of them have observably larger lungs and can see underwater much better than an outsider).  I don't understand a lot of things because it's not me *shrugs*  Differences are the spice of life though so I have no problem with homosexuality.

#170
shinobi602

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Wow, every day there's a new topic with someone whining and moaning about this. Casey can say whatever the hell he wants, it's their game, for crying out loud.

#171
Yojimboo

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Revan312 wrote...
One last thing, If an entire society we're made of gay men and woman, it could still easily sustain a population with today's technology, it's called artificial insemination.  Now I'm not gonna get into the logistics and what if's of that setup, I'm just throwing that out there.


This is a speculation, just like mine was. Just because we have the technology doesn't automatically mean they would use it.

Of course my statement was highly speculative.

I did not say this will happen so and so, it was a "if".

Modifié par Yojimboo, 20 janvier 2010 - 04:30 .


#172
Revan312

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shinobi602 wrote...

Wow, every day there's a new topic with someone whining and moaning about this. Casey can say whatever the hell he wants, it's their game, for crying out loud.


While I will agree that this old tune is getting a bit old, people are just venting their anger at what you must admit was a bit of a two faced comment made by Chris.  This is all about the principle now, not the content, it would be no different if any politician had said something off color, don't let it get to you, that's what these forums are for, afterall Shinobi, we had an entire thread pseudo whining about the possibility of Samara not being a LI :P

#173
Revan312

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Yojimboo wrote...

This is a speculation, just like mine was. Just because we have the technology doesn't automatically mean they would use it.

Of course my statement was highly speculative.

I did not say this will happen so and so, it was a "if".


Oh it is totally speculation, I'm just saying that a fully gay society could work or, it might collapse, since there's a 99% chance this will never happen we'll never know, it's all speculation at this point and ya, I knew what you meant. ;)

Modifié par Revan312, 20 janvier 2010 - 04:37 .


#174
shinobi602

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Revan312 wrote...

This is all about the principle now, not the content, it would be no different if any politician had said something off color, don't let it get to you, that's what these forums are for, afterall Shinobi, we had an entire thread pseudo whining about the possibility of Samara not being a LI :P


Who what where!?? *looks through forums*

NO ONE TALKS ABOUT MY SAMARA LIKE THAT  >:o

#175
Yojimboo

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Revan312 wrote...

Yojimboo wrote...

This is a speculation, just like mine was. Just because we have the technology doesn't automatically mean they would use it.

Of course my statement was highly speculative.

I did not say this will happen so and so, it was a "if".


Oh it is totally speculation, I'm just saying that a fully gay society could work or, it might collapse, since there's a 99% chance this will never happen we'll never know, it's all speculation at this point and ya, I knew what you went. ;)


As long we understand each other, everything will smell like roses. Pita pata so to speak.