28 réponses à ce sujet

[favoritehookeronthecitadel]

Honestly, I think one of the many problems in the game was the needless drama with the Virmire suvivor's arc. First of all, you finally get the fight alongside them and they btch and whine about Cerberus the entire freaking mission on Mars and then get their asses whooped and sad music plays like they just died. But no they're just all bruised up and need to lay in bed for about half the game. I mean, really Bioware? And then there comes the confrontation on the Citadel where they point a gun at you and you have to talk them down/shoot them. It's really hard to understand their perspective when their weariness is written so badly.

What would've been interesting was if they were more subtle and less whiny about not trusting Shepard, maybe putting survelance cameras in his room or something to that nature.

This could've created an interesting subplot with Shep and the VS with their trust issues while also making them more sympathetic than they are in the game. I mean, if they had so much trouble trusting Shepard after his errands with Cerb, why didn't they actually do something instead of whine and **** endlessly through the Mars mission, after, frankly, we had gotten enough of their btching in ME2. We understood their viewpoints just fine, having to try to change their minds over 8 dialogue wheels only for them to get injured and lay in bed for half of the game and then threaten to shoot you. It was just a little mind boggling how Bioware went about it. It could've been interesting instead of annoying. Everytime I get to them with that gun, I can't help but think, "How many times do I have to fking tell you I'm not with Cerberus." Honestly, the VS made Carth Onasi look cool.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I would not trust anyone who actually joined Cerberus, the guys who thought it would be a good idea to feed human colonists to Thresher Maws for the sake of preserving humanity. The VS writing in ME3 was terrible, but to be fair I think how it did play out was well done considering the banality of the ME2 Cerberus plot.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Shepard is dead for two years, scraped up from meat and bones and apparently the scooped Shepard's head out of that helmet on that planet and left the helmet there. Cerberus rebuilt her. She shows up. "I got better." And no one questions Shepard EXCEPT the VS. THAT'S what I find even more amazing. Anderson? He accepts Shepard no problem. I know you're going to say Shepard's DNA checked, but so did the clone's dna check. Who is to say that is Shepard?

We accept the handwavium because it's a pure video game logic lazy method of getting us to work for Cerberus instead of having to write some kind of actual plot to get us to infiltrate the organization to do a particular job that the Alliance or Council couldn't get their hands dirty doing and perhaps find out what they were up to. We're just playing Bioware's version of an Arnold Schwarzenegger movie in space. Then we get to ME3 and the beginning is a giant facepalm. Hell, but we've got the comic relief with us, Vega.

Ashley was probably the only one who was intelligent enough to continue to question, but then the writers did a character assassination on her after the coup because you were supposed to be so pissed off at her you killed her or told her to take a hike and work for Hackett. Go figure.

BUT If you just told Ashley to STFU with a renegade instead of using paragon on her she'd STFU. If you went nice and paragon? She'd constantly whine and BMC about Cerberus. Renegade once or twice and that was it for the entire act 1, and she doesn't mention it again. It was that simple people. But paragon pansies won't use the renegade choice.

The story has so many holes, and the more you examine it the more you find. Tip toe, by the plot holes, leaving bread crumbs all along the way.....

[ImaginaryMatter]

StreetMagic wrote...

Shepard didn't join Cerberus. You get zero choice in the matter. There's no joining. Or otherwise. It just is. Player goes to Gamestop, buys ME2, comes home, puts in disc.. Voila. They're now in the Cerberus Network.

In-game though Shepard did join Cerberus, willingly, even though he may have occasionally complained about it. Outside of the in-game universe the player was forced to join Cerberus, but the VS doesn't know that. As far as they know Shepard was actually 'rebuilt' by them, which is pretty suspicious, and then palled around with them for a few months.

[favoritehookeronthecitadel]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...


BUT If you just told Ashley to STFU with a renegade instead of using paragon on her she'd STFU. If you went nice and paragon? She'd constantly whine and BMC about Cerberus. Renegade once or twice and that was it for the entire act 1, and she doesn't mention it again. It was that simple people. But paragon pansies won't use the renegade choice.

The story has so many holes, and the more you examine it the more you find. Tip toe, by the plot holes, leaving bread crumbs all along the way.....

I wouldn't call people that use paragon options "pansies", I would rather just blame the writing. Plus for some of us the VS was our romance.

[Ryzaki]

favoritehookeronthecitadel wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...


BUT If you just told Ashley to STFU with a renegade instead of using paragon on her she'd STFU. If you went nice and paragon? She'd constantly whine and BMC about Cerberus. Renegade once or twice and that was it for the entire act 1, and she doesn't mention it again. It was that simple people. But paragon pansies won't use the renegade choice.

The story has so many holes, and the more you examine it the more you find. Tip toe, by the plot holes, leaving bread crumbs all along the way.....

I wouldn't call people that use paragon options "pansies", I would rather just blame the writing. Plus for some of us the VS was our romance.

She keeps whining about it even when you pick renegade. Least she did when I did.

[ImaginaryMatter]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Shepard is dead for two years, scraped up from meat and bones and apparently the scooped Shepard's head out of that helmet on that planet and left the helmet there. Cerberus rebuilt her. She shows up. "I got better." And no one questions Shepard EXCEPT the VS. THAT'S what I find even more amazing. Anderson? He accepts Shepard no problem. I know you're going to say Shepard's DNA checked, but so did the clone's dna check. Who is to say that is Shepard?

We accept the handwavium because it's a pure video game logic lazy method of getting us to work for Cerberus instead of having to write some kind of actual plot to get us to infiltrate the organization to do a particular job that the Alliance or Council couldn't get their hands dirty doing and perhaps find out what they were up to. We're just playing Bioware's version of an Arnold Schwarzenegger movie in space. Then we get to ME3 and the beginning is a giant facepalm. Hell, but we've got the comic relief with us, Vega.

Ashley was probably the only one who was intelligent enough to continue to question, but then the writers did a character assassination on her after the coup because you were supposed to be so pissed off at her you killed her or told her to take a hike and work for Hackett. Go figure.

BUT If you just told Ashley to STFU with a renegade instead of using paragon on her she'd STFU. If you went nice and paragon? She'd constantly whine and BMC about Cerberus. Renegade once or twice and that was it for the entire act 1, and she doesn't mention it again. It was that simple people. But paragon pansies won't use the renegade choice.

The story has so many holes, and the more you examine it the more you find. Tip toe, by the plot holes, leaving bread crumbs all along the way.....

Ya, I really enjoyed ME2, the writing was mostly great in the side missions which were closed off from the main plot -- thank goodness. It's my favorite game in the series and one of my top favorite games of all time, which makes me sad to bash it... but as soon as you deal with the main plot, Cerberus becomes this massive sink hole where good writing disappears and the cohesiveness of the trilogy starts to fall apart.

If the series was a relay race, ME2 would be the guy who trips (or dropped the baton, I'm going with the former though). He ran well the rest of the time but he did ruined the race and the next guy can't really do much about it. Which I think shows up in this case. The writers for ME3 couldn't do much about it.

Modifié par ImaginaryMatter, 20 novembre 2013 - 07:58 .

[ImaginaryMatter]

StreetMagic wrote...

Perhaps I should say Shepard does join in one way or another, but the player doesn't necessarily. I do all I can to make it seem like I don't join Cerberus willingly. The first entry in the Quest Journal is to talk to Anderson. You get hit with bad news from him - the Council and Alliance suck. You know the Collectors are a threat at this point, so Mordin is the natural first quest choice. Then I pick up Zaeed. Then Garrus. After that point, I do Aria's mission where she sends you to check out the YMIR mechs. Which is near Purgatory Prison. "Go find a nice girl. You look like you could loosen up." In comes Jack. At this point, I'm doing pretty well for myself. Two Aliens and two humans who have killed a lot of Cerberus like Shepard. I'm not making many choices, but I feel like my quest order isn't Cerberus friendly at least. This is about the best I can do.

I make the best of it too. I try take every action that I can to stick it to Cerberus.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Ryzaki wrote...

favoritehookeronthecitadel wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...


BUT If you just told Ashley to STFU with a renegade instead of using paragon on her she'd STFU. If you went nice and paragon? She'd constantly whine and BMC about Cerberus. Renegade once or twice and that was it for the entire act 1, and she doesn't mention it again. It was that simple people. But paragon pansies won't use the renegade choice.

The story has so many holes, and the more you examine it the more you find. Tip toe, by the plot holes, leaving bread crumbs all along the way.....

I wouldn't call people that use paragon options "pansies", I would rather just blame the writing. Plus for some of us the VS was our romance.

She keeps whining about it even when you pick renegade. Least she did when I did.

I think it was also a gender thing. With my all of my plays which were femShep all it took was TWO consecutive renegade choices and Ash was done. 

Kaidan was my ME1 LI on one play, too, and I still used the renegade on him on Mars. "Kaidan, you either trust me or you don't. I don't want to hear about it anymore, but I expect you to follow my orders, are we clear?" Okay, so I'm a b*tch, but that was the last I heard about Cerberus.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

StreetMagic wrote...

Those Renegade options aren't even harsh. They seem kind of like normal things many people would say. I'd suggest them too. You only put things in danger by not visiting the hospital/not giving gifts.

Exactly. Kaidan gets the port, and Ashley gets the Tennyson. You're good. Besides, I like both of them. Too bad BW screwed the military ranks up really bad. Ashley should have been Operations Chief at most, and Kaidan Lt Commander at most. The idea I think was to make Kaidan higher rank and a Spectre so that you'd have more of an incentive to kill him during the Coup, thus denying femShep any hetero LI for ME3 unless she romanced Garrus. This led me to conclude that Liara was the canon LI given the length of the love scene as well. They should have had equal time. Even zombie-Tali for lols. 

[ImaginaryMatter]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Those Renegade options aren't even harsh. They seem kind of like normal things many people would say. I'd suggest them too. You only put things in danger by not visiting the hospital/not giving gifts.

Exactly. Kaidan gets the port, and Ashley gets the Tennyson. You're good. Besides, I like both of them. Too bad BW screwed the military ranks up really bad. Ashley should have been Operations Chief at most, and Kaidan Lt Commander at most. The idea I think was to make Kaidan higher rank and a Spectre so that you'd have more of an incentive to kill him during the Coup, thus denying femShep any hetero LI for ME3 unless she romanced Garrus. This led me to conclude that Liara was the canon LI given the length of the love scene as well. They should have had equal time. Even zombie-Tali for lols. 

The worst thing that ever happened to Liara was becoming the writers' pet.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

StreetMagic wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Those Renegade options aren't even harsh. They seem kind of like normal things many people would say. I'd suggest them too. You only put things in danger by not visiting the hospital/not giving gifts.

Exactly. Kaidan gets the port, and Ashley gets the Tennyson. You're good. Besides, I like both of them. Too bad BW screwed the military ranks up really bad. Ashley should have been Operations Chief at most, and Kaidan Lt Commander at most. The idea I think was to make Kaidan higher rank and a Spectre so that you'd have more of an incentive to kill him during the Coup, thus denying femShep any hetero LI for ME3 unless she romanced Garrus. This led me to conclude that Liara was the canon LI given the length of the love scene as well. They should have had equal time. Even zombie-Tali for lols. 

If that's true, it gets my thumbs down. They created a beautiul/rich world, and should be proud of how many characters were good. Some games can't even do half of that. It's lame to try to canonize (or even vaguely hint at it).

That said, I'm not so sure they are doing that either. I think it's more about money and time constraints. Casey Hudson has referred to the characters like his children.. he doesn't try to be biased about it. Not sure about the rest of the team, but he's the man in charge ultimately.

The remark about the characters turning into your kids? I understand. In the FF thread "Battle of London" I had to kill off three recently. One had entered late as a "red shirt" so that was a given. Two? One had been with me since the beginning and another was close to the beginning. The first one hurt to kill. The second one wasn't my creation. They all went out heroes, but still... you write characters and you develop characters from the beginning they're part of you. You write yourself into them and I don't care what role they play: hero or villain or in between. I like the ones in between the best. 

I don't know if they did it on purpose to femShep, but it sure felt like it. I mean how long does it take to look up military ranks on the internet and come up with something reasonable? They even have internet in Edmonton last I checked.  Anyway, I'm going to shoot stuff in Fallout NV.

[iOnlySignIn]

favoritehookeronthecitadel wrote...

What would've been interesting was if they were more subtle

THIS ISN'T ABOUT STRATEGY OR TACTICS

[Daemul]

The first time I played ME2 I was seriously expecting there to be a revelation that Shepard was a clone/AI and that he was being controlled by Cerberus, so I can fully understand the VS's position. What annoys me most is that no one else questioned Shepard about this, they all just accepted it like morons.

"I got better"

I mean seriously dafuq?

[favoritehookeronthecitadel]

Well, it's important to also remember the time period. It's in the future and there omni tools and gel and new technology being crafted every day by different species. And I think that the reason a lot of characters automatically accept it is so that Shepard doesn't have to explain to all of the old characters how he came back to life 9 different times. That would've been a bit tedious. And as far as Garrus and Tali go, it's not like they saw a body. You can hear Garrus' shocked but calm reaction, the way he says "Shepard, I thought you were dead." as if he just thought he faked his death.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

It's one thing to take Clarke's Third Law to the extreme which is done a lot in ME where technology becomes magic. There's so much handwaving. Tedious? It isn't even explained once. It's futuristic fantasy fiction.

[Uncle Jo]

I paid attention to them only in my very first ME3 playthrough. Since then I don't even bother to go to the hospital. On the Citadel they die.

Shoot'em. End of story.

[favoritehookeronthecitadel]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

It's one thing to take Clarke's Third Law to the extreme which is done a lot in ME where technology becomes magic. There's so much handwaving. Tedious? It isn't even explained once. It's futuristic fantasy fiction.

It's still better than Star Trek or Star Wars which just brings back characters whenever the feel like it. I mean, if you're gonna do sci-fi, you might as well do sci-fi. The characters didn't need to know too much about how Shepard came back because we the audience didn't need to know, we had already seen it from the begining, to his death to the recontruction of his organs. We know this is the real Shepard. Maybe it was just instinct on Garrus and Tali's part. 

[trenq]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Those Renegade options aren't even harsh. They seem kind of like normal things many people would say. I'd suggest them too. You only put things in danger by not visiting the hospital/not giving gifts.

Exactly. Kaidan gets the port, and Ashley gets the Tennyson. You're good. Besides, I like both of them. Too bad BW screwed the military ranks up really bad. Ashley should have been Operations Chief at most, and Kaidan Lt Commander at most. The idea I think was to make Kaidan higher rank and a Spectre so that you'd have more of an incentive to kill him during the Coup, thus denying femShep any hetero LI for ME3 unless she romanced Garrus. This led me to conclude that Liara was the canon LI given the length of the love scene as well. They should have had equal time. Even zombie-Tali for lols. 

The worst thing that ever happened to Liara was becoming the writers' pet.

Yeah, i like Liara but no one likes pets.