93 réponses à ce sujet

[Skyrunner_Morgan]

To be honest I preferred the old Origins dialogue style. That spiny wheel thing was drawn from Mass Effect but should have stayed there but this is my opinion. In Mass Effect 3 you had the auto dialogue option, so Shepard automatically picked either Paragon or Renegade responses without you seeing or using the wheel; the same option could be shown in Inquisition.

What I would like to see is a real change where there aren't all those questions that make you look like you were oblivious to everything you heard or knew or make you as a player look like a total airhead. I really hope the Inquisitor won't end up like something Hawke turned into after too many sarcastic replies or comments.

[Jaulen]

metatheurgist wrote...

eaglefan129 wrote...
why is that such a big deal have you guys never played fps's or any other game? be thankful that we can have dialogue options...

The reason I don't play FPSs is because I don't like them. If DA became more like an FPS I'd stop playing it.

Ditto. If I liked playing a set character, I'd play those games.....but I don't, so I don't.

That was one of my initial dislikes about ME3 when I started playing it. All that autodialogue felt like I was playing someone elses character.

I mean there was so much AD, I unplugged my headphones and went and mixed up a batch of cookies!

Modifié par Jaulen, 21 novembre 2013 - 05:24 .

[pdusen]

renjility wrote...

I thought ME3 was being ridiculous, especially because all the auto-dialogue resulted in endless cutscenes of a whopping 15 minutes, without ever offering the chance to pause, save, or quite the game. 

Okay, it's comments like these that make me ask... did some of you even play ME3?

Yes, there werent as many dialog options as ME2, and yes, Shepard did sometimes say things unprompted, but by and large there was never a point where I felt a choice was being made for me or that I was a passive observer in a conversation, let alone in an "endless cutscene of a whopping 15 minutes, without ever offering the chance to pause, save, or quit the game." That's a ludicrous exaggeration.

Modifié par pdusen, 21 novembre 2013 - 05:30 .

[Dutchess]

pdusen wrote...

renjility wrote...

I thought ME3 was being ridiculous, especially because all the auto-dialogue resulted in endless cutscenes of a whopping 15 minutes, without ever offering the chance to pause, save, or quite the game. 

Okay, it's comments like these that make me ask... did some of you even play ME3?

Yes, there werent as many dialog options as ME2, and yes, Shepard did sometimes say things unprompted, but by and large there was never a point where I felt a choice was being made for me or that I was a passive observer in a conversation, let alone in an "endless cutscene of a whopping 15 minutes, without ever offering the chance to pause, save, or quit the game." That's a ludicrous exaggeration.

I am actually replaying the game now, and this scenario took place when curing the genophage. I had ten mintes left before I had to leave my house, so I figured I could get past the brutes and finished the quests. You then get the cutscene about the tresher maw taking down the reaper. Then, immediately after, you are in the sphire building talking to Mordin/his replacement about curing the genophage or not. Then you get the aftermath. Then you're back on the Normany and talk to Hackett. Then you talk to... primarch Victus and Garrus. Then I got the message from Traynor that the Salarian dalatrass was on vidcom, so Shepard automatically went on and talked to her. Then Garrus told me to go to sleep, which Shepard promptly did. Then I was in the dream sequence, in which I STILL could not save. Since the dalatrass conversation I was forced to skip all the dialogue to get to a save point in time, because by now more then ten minutes had pased. After the dream, Liara comes into your cabin to talk about something else, and THEN, THEN, control over Shepard is returned and I could save. But by that time I had missed almost half of what had been said, so the next time I started the game I reloaded a save from prior to finishing the Tuchanka quest and got to do the endless cutscenes all over again.

I always thought I liked cutscenes and all that jazz, but ME3 made me reconsider that position, which is an impressive achievement, though not a positive one.

Modifié par renjility, 21 novembre 2013 - 05:39 .

[Jaulen]

pdusen wrote...

renjility wrote...

I thought ME3 was being ridiculous, especially because all the auto-dialogue resulted in endless cutscenes of a whopping 15 minutes, without ever offering the chance to pause, save, or quite the game. 

Okay, it's comments like these that make me ask... did some of you even play ME3?

Yes, there werent as many dialog options as ME2, and yes, Shepard did sometimes say things unprompted, but by and large there was never a point where I felt a choice was being made for me or that I was a passive observer in a conversation, let alone in an "endless cutscene of a whopping 15 minutes, without ever offering the chance to pause, save, or quit the game." That's a ludicrous exaggeration.

*laughs at the 'did sometimes say things unprompted' phrase*

*wipes away a tear*

Modifié par Jaulen, 21 novembre 2013 - 05:44 .

[Wulfram]

Exaggeration, yes. But, for example, the opening is 8 minutes with 3, very minor, dialogue choices so I wouldn't say ludicrous.

Though in terms of long uninterrupted cutscenes ME2 I think is worse.  What with that giant unskippable opening, and the suicide mission start. But they didn't have Shepard speak in them so much so they didn't bother me so much, aside from being annoying when you just wanted to tweak Shepard's cheekbones

Modifié par Wulfram, 21 novembre 2013 - 05:50 .

[Ieldra]

If I may, yet again, clarify something:

Autodialogue itself is not a problem. Autodialogue becomes a problem when the protagonist is written to say something I wouldn't want them to say without any input from me. That means, if the protagonist speaks about neutral things like tactics for the following mission, asks someone for clarification or talks about what they have done or not done in a neutral way, then there is no problem, as long as that fits the conversation and its mood.

Autodialogue is anathema to roleplaying if, and only if the lines the protagonist is given by the writers run contrary to the protagonist's identifying mental traits as envisioned by the player. Here's an extreme example: It is quite plausible to envision your Warden in DAO as greatly resenting the Grey Wardens for having robbed him of a part of his lifetime. Thus, having some hypothetical autodialogue that makes him say "joining the Grey Wardens was the greatest thing ever happened to me" would destroy this character. 

ME3's autodialogue was a problem in many scenes because it made Shepard appear stupid (prologue and post-Thessia, parts of the ending, Leviathan mission 1, among others), made them be hostile to TIM even though in ME2 it was possible to part on reasonably good terms (Mars. Later encounters are ok) or made them express feelings which made Shepard alien to many of their own players ("You won't be alone long"). In extreme cases (of which I was one), there was the impression that the identity of our protagonists was completely destroyed by ME3. 

So...what I want isn't "no autodialogue", it's "no character-derailing autodialogue" or "no autodialogue that defines character", and it's "enough dialogue options to have different meaningful (!) ways to define my character". For me personally, that means, among other things, that I want ideologically neutral options and the opportunity to express my protagonist as an emotionally detached, discerning strategist with no strong ideological or moral bias.

I believe that Bioware is aware of the problem and that we won't have nearly as much autodialogue as in ME3, and hopefully no character-defining autodialogue at all. DA2 was actually rather good in this, and you can tell that this was not an accident if you pay attention. I don't see any reason why DAI should be worse and some reasons why it may end up being better.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 21 novembre 2013 - 06:31 .

[Neverwinter_Knight77]

My God, I hope not.  I loved the dialog style in Dragon Age: Origins, and I absolutely loathed Mass Effect 3's auto dialog.  The biggest crime was male Shep's romance dialog with Tali.  She says really nice things to him, and instead him replying with something like "I love you" or "you mean everything to me", he just says (deadpan) "Thanks."  Argh, what an idiot!  I could strangle Shepard for being such a dunce sometimes!

So yeah, auto-dialog is complete crap.

[General TSAR]

I hope not.

I don't want my Inquisitor rail-roaded, I prefer a stoic brick to an animated parrot any day.

Modifié par General TSAR, 21 novembre 2013 - 06:37 .

[Ieldra]

General TSAR wrote...
I don't want my Inquisitor rail-roaded, I prefer a stoic brick to an animated parrot any day.

You can always pretend your character is a stoic brick masquerading as an animated parrot. ***runs away***

[MrMrPendragon]

I guess auto-dialogue has its uses. Not enough of it may leave the conversation "inorganic" in a sense.

But I'd really like plenty of chances to converse - meaning I don't want to have a "hey" bubble showing up on top when I initiate a convo - , and when I do, I'd like to direct the conversation.

Modifié par ArcherTactlenecks, 21 novembre 2013 - 07:05 .

[Linkenski]

http://youtu.be/3xZMkX6qXvE?t=29m40s
To OP: Patrick Weekes has already elaborated on this in a Bioware Q&A Panel earlier this year.

Without specifically being asked he said "We heard some concerns over the amount of autodialogue in ME3, and we're definitely taking that into consideration so make Dragon Age Inquisition is gonna incorporate more "player power"" /paraphrase

They are aware that many (relatively) don't like it (myself very much included). I think ME2 had the best dialogue system by far. Some wheels were redundant where all options made Shepard say the same thing but they generally gave you choices all the places where they would be obvious to have and in ME3 it's often ignored when it should be the most obvious. I think there will be more autodialogue than in DA2 in DA:I, but it will be much better balanced than it was ME3 vs. ME2, and there probably WILL be neutral dialogue options.

From my POV, autodialogue isn't a problem in itself and I don't think it's only a problem when it's character-derailing either. The thing about dialogue in Bioware's games since Mass Effect has always been that it's actually railroaded more often than not but because you get a nice-guy-way to say a certain thing and a bad-guy-way to say the same thing as well it gives you an illusion of choice. I don't think Shepard being stupid in autodialogue was the main problem in ME3 because sometimes the only options you got in either DA2 or ME2 were also all stupid or contradictory to how the protagonist had acted earlier on.

The Lead Cinematic Designer of Mass Effect 2, Armando Troisi, held a presentation pre-release for the game where he described how they had structured all choices in the game by something he called "the agreement with the player" where there were certain guidelines all writers had to follow when writing the branching dialogue. Key points included A) There should be choices where the player expects them. This was ignored for the most part in Mass Effect 3, and Always give the player the choices they want. This wasn't always true in ME2 either and honestly it can never be true, but in ME3 the consistent lack of the neutral choice meant this was largely ignored as well, and the amount of autodialogue also contradicted this.

You can watch the presentation of the ME2 system here: youtu.be/-opEshcecMY

I should mention that Mr. Troisi did leave Bioware after ME2 and is currently working with 343 Industries IIRC, so that's why the writers didn't follow the same guidelines for ME3. Also in Final Hours it was mentioned that, especialy towards the ending, Casey Hudson wanted "every line to be choreographed to the second" not to mention Lead Writer, Mac Walters, mentioning the team wanted ME3 to be "The Movie" of the Mass Effect franchise.

So choreography and movie-ish cinematic design was also a factor in why so many player choices were absent in ME3. I do have a hunch that it was mostly a cover-up for the fact that the game had an incredibly tight deadline 1.5 years and it was the biggest game in the trilogy story-wise. So they must've known it was impossible to make too much branching dialogue with so many things going on. Another reason they said themselves was that he management of resources was different. There were more lines of dialogue to be voiced but there were also more animation work to be done, so the animators would've been put on over-time if they had to lip-sync and angle every scene as a piece of interactive dialogue to how it was in the older games.

I personally think with DA:I looking to be more focused on the gameplay and world exploration setting that player agency will feel just as big as in the other DA games, and probably even more than in DA:2.

Modifié par Linkenski, 21 novembre 2013 - 07:20 .

[MrMrPendragon]

Linkenski wrote...

http://youtu.be/3xZMkX6qXvE?t=29m40s
To OP: Patrick Weekes has already elaborated on this in a Bioware Q&A Panel earlier this year.

Without specifically being asked he said "We heard some concerns over the amount of autodialogue in ME3, and we're definitely taking that into consideration so make Dragon Age Inquisition is gonna incorporate more "player power"" /paraphrase

They are aware that people don't like it. I think ME2 had the best dialogue system by far. Some wheels were redundant where all options made Shepard say the same thing but they generally gave you choices all the places where they would be obvious to have and in ME3 it's often ignored when it should be the most obvious. I think there will be more autodialogue than in DA2 in DA:I, but it will be much better balanced than it was ME3 vs. ME2, and there probably WILL be neutral dialogue options.

Thank you. I will definitely check that out.

Also, I agree that ME2 had the good balance we all want.

[MrMrPendragon]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

I don't really see how ME1 was much better than ME3 in terms of dialogue. The characters would react the same way the majority of the time, no matter what you picked, and sometimes your choice in dialogue would lead to the same exact line.

DAO is a much, much better example. At least the answers varied, for the most part.

Well to be fair, DAO really had no room for auto-dailogue because the Warden wasn't talking or showing expressions when conversing. So that's really out of the table.

As I said, I don't want auto-dialogue to be completely out of the system, but I do want a good balance - hence the tite "is DAI going to be heavy in auto dialogue"

When auto-dialogue comes, it's certainly a sign that there aren't many conversation options or opportunities to converse - which is one of the things a lot of people don't want.

[Ieldra]

ArcherTactlenecks wrote...

Linkenski wrote...

http://youtu.be/3xZMkX6qXvE?t=29m40s
To OP: Patrick Weekes has already elaborated on this in a Bioware Q&A Panel earlier this year.

Without specifically being asked he said "We heard some concerns over the amount of autodialogue in ME3, and we're definitely taking that into consideration so make Dragon Age Inquisition is gonna incorporate more "player power"" /paraphrase

They are aware that people don't like it. I think ME2 had the best dialogue system by far. Some wheels were redundant where all options made Shepard say the same thing but they generally gave you choices all the places where they would be obvious to have and in ME3 it's often ignored when it should be the most obvious. I think there will be more autodialogue than in DA2 in DA:I, but it will be much better balanced than it was ME3 vs. ME2, and there probably WILL be neutral dialogue options.

Thank you. I will definitely check that out.

Also, I agree that ME2 had the good balance we all want.

I disagree. ME2 had a good balance for the ME trilogy but what I really want is the level of control and the number of options I had in DA2, which is quite a bit more than ME2 offered. I wouldn't be content with less. Fortunately, David Gaider said DAI might have less autodialogue than DA2 which would be even better.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 21 novembre 2013 - 07:22 .

[Linkenski]

I think ME2 had better balance because they were more honest with the choices you got. Most wheels had investigative or elaborate options a-la DA2 and ME3 and then two choice options, either Paragon+Neutral+Renegade, Paragon+Neutral or Renegade+Neutral and it eliminated more of those "renegade choice says the same as neutral" things which there were still a really big bunch of in DA2.

Then of course DA2 also had more variations of different kinds of choices. Either you had the simple response-wheel with "Good guy, comedian or bad boy" or you had those 3-way choices. But like I said, I feel like ME2's wheels were less misleading and on replays I noticed more artificial options in the wheels of DA2 than I did in ME2. DA2's dialogue wheel is more like ME1's I think.

[TurretSyndrome]

Just saying, "auto-dialogue" is better than narrative oppression of the main character like in DA 2. At least the first one's honest about it.

[Ieldra]

Linkenski wrote...

I think ME2 had better balance because they were more honest with the choices you got. Most wheels had investigative or elaborate options a-la DA2 and ME3 and then two choice options, either Paragon+Neutral+Renegade, Paragon+Neutral or Renegade+Neutral and it eliminated more of those "renegade choice says the same as neutral" things which there were still a really big bunch of in DA2.

Then of course DA2 also had more variations of different kinds of choices. Either you had the simple response-wheel with "Good guy, comedian or bad boy" or you had those 3-way choices. But like I said, I feel like ME2's wheels were less misleading and on replays I noticed more artificial options in the wheels of DA2 than I did in ME2. DA2's dialogue wheel is more like ME1's I think.

I don't think there were any conversation nodes in DA2 where Hawke said the same regardless of your choice. There may have been cases where they only said one different sentence and after that the dialogue converged again, but that sentence was usually somewhat character-defining, which is what I want: a way to express my character.

[Ieldra]

TurretSyndrome wrote...
Just saying, "auto-dialogue" is better than narrative oppression of the main character like in DA 2. At least the first one's honest about it.

I didn't feel narratively oppressed in DA2, except that I wanted a third option in many two-pronged decisions where the two options seemed artificially extreme, but that's a problem all Bioware RPGs have had to this day.

What I did feel was led around by the hand by a journal that went so far as to tell me when to talk to my companions. This, and a few other things which were small on their own, which I summarized in an old thread about Bioware games' cumulative constraint. From what I hear about DAI, they appear to have taken that to heart. Story-wise, no, I didn't feel oppressed.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 21 novembre 2013 - 07:41 .

[Iakus]

Ieldra2 wrote...

What I did feel was led around by the hand by a journal that went so far as to tell me when to talk to my companions. This, and a few other things which were small on their own, which I summarized in an old thread about Bioware games' cumulative constraint. From what I hear about DAI, they appear to have taken that to heart. Story-wise, no, I didn't feel oppressed.

A yes, the missions to go talk to your companions

I sense a disturbance in the force.

Better go check on Anders

But yeah, autodialogue can be a pain as well.  I want to have a conversation, not watch a movie of my character having a conversation

[Tamyn]

I'd rather have a little bit of auto-dialogue than three responses labeled "Of course", "Okay," and "Fine."

[deuce985]

I think it's inevitable since they're using a voiced PC. However, that doesn't mean it has to be as bad as ME3. I would expect some at the very least.

[Wulfram]

Tamyn wrote...

I'd rather have a little bit of auto-dialogue than three responses labeled "Of course", "Okay," and "Fine."

But I'd rather have three options labeled

"Yay!"
"OK."
"If I must."