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[Silfren]

Br3ad wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

What were you expecting? DA2 tried to change things up and got mercilessly reamed for it.

It wasn't "mercilessly reamed" because the plot strayed away from saving the world.

Indeed, certainly wasn't why I found it lacking.

Perhaps that wasn't the core reason, but a number of people DID complain about DA2 not being a classic hero-saves-the-world story a la Origins. 

A number of people complain about everything no matter what happens. Silent Majority>Vocal Minority 

Which doesn't refute my point.  DA2's deviation from the Origins-style hero's quest WAS one of the major complaints many people had against DA2.  It can't be dimissed as inconsequential, especially since Bioware has specifically said it would be returning to the traditional narrative.

[Allan Schumacher]

It's hard to disassociate some times, plus trying to filter down what some complaints are actually trying to say and so forth.

[Icy Magebane]

Silfren wrote...

Which doesn't refute my point.  DA2's deviation from the Origins-style hero's quest WAS one of the major complaints many people had against DA2.  It can't be dimissed as inconsequential, especially since Bioware has specifically said it would be returning to the traditional narrative.

What if "traditional" just means "not narrated by Varric?"  The idea that large parts of the game could have been embellishments or outright lies was never really embraced by the fanbase as far as I recall.  You have to admit, DA2 tried a lot of different things, many of which were not well received.  I think that straying from an antagonist that threatens the whole world was just one of many issues people had, and no more significant than any other.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 21 novembre 2013 - 11:32 .

[Wulfram]

I don't think DA2 not being a save-the-world type plot was inherently bad, but it seemed like it left a hole in the plot that wasn't adequately filled - there wasn't that driving force, or something to bring the bits together.

We're off to save the world
the wonderful World of Thedas
we hear it is a pearl of a world
if ever a world there was
if ever, oh ever a world there was
the world of Thedas is one because
Because, because, because, because, because
Because of the wonderful things it has
We're off to save the world
The Wonderful World of Thedas!

Modifié par Wulfram, 21 novembre 2013 - 11:53 .

[Ravenfeeder]

hangmans tree wrote...

Will we be set on an ark hunt to find the ancient scrolls with the knowledge how to shut the gate between the worlds? Or the "weapon" against the Big Bad Wolf?

This is one of my major concerns about the plot. If I'm playing the protagonist give ME the agency to win the final victory. Not some 'ancient knowledge' or 'legendary weapon'. Let me or my companions work out the knowledge or craft the weapon.

This is where ME3 really lost it for me (apart from the ending). The citizens of the galaxy were the engineers, just putting together something somebody else had designed. No invention of our own.

[David7204]

It's always that way.

You never have the protagonist just coming up the solution to the problem, and particularly not in RPGs. For all intents and purposes, it's a DEM. One moment there's no solution to a problem, the next the protagonist thinks one up and there is. Where's the drama in that? Where's the conflict?

Not only that, it's invisible to the audience. All the things viewers associate with science - test tubes bubbling, equations on chalkboards - those are just cosmetics. The real science is the thought. And the thought is invisible. How are audiences supposed to appreciate that? They can't.

Watch Breaking Bad? You notice it's never Walt who comes up with the original idea for a scientific solution to a problem? (At least when the plan is known ahead of time to the audience.) Sure, he always refines and implements it, but it's always someone else who actually sparks things off. Because the writers know that someone just coming up with a scientific solution to a problem and executing is it boring.

Of course, you'll have to replace 'science' with 'magic' everywhere in Dragon Age.

Modifié par David7204, 21 novembre 2013 - 11:59 .

[Ravenfeeder]

Coming up with a solution to that is why David & Co are paid the big bucks.

[David7204]

The 'solution' is to avoid the issue by not having protagonists just think up solutions to big problems. There's no drama in it.

[Plaintiff]

Programmers are actually the ones that make the "big bucks", generally speaking. On average, programmers are the highest-paid professionals in the video game industry.

[Ravenfeeder]

David7204 wrote...

The 'solution' is to avoid the issue by not having protagonists just think up solutions to big problems. There's no drama in it.

Oh I agree with that. I just feel de-protagonised if all my character is doing is following somebody else's plan. Somebody else in game that is, we're going to be following the writers plans whatever happens.

[Angrywolves]

Anti hero.
Do you save the world or destroy it ?
I presume some players will play as evil and some will destroy Thedas, just to see what it's like at the very least.
I like being the good guy saving the world . I find it appealing.

[David7204]

I'm not defending the Crucible since it is stupid, but building it is as much Shepard's plan as anyone's.The problem with it has little to do with following someone else's plan.

Modifié par David7204, 22 novembre 2013 - 12:15 .

[MrMrPendragon]

Also, "saving the world" can still be done indirectly.

It doesn't have to be "you vs army" kind of deal - maybe something like Dawn of the Seeker. There is a threat, not to the world, but to the Divine - which is still something to be concerned about, but not necessarily a threat to the existence of life as we know it. Maybe in the long run, it will evolve into something of that caliber, but right now, it's not.

That's how I see DA2 anyway. It's still "saving the world" in that Act 2 & 3's conflicts affect not just Kirkwall. I mean, it's certainly not as dramatic as the "conspiracy conflict" of DotS, but in a sense, Hawke was still a hero. Hero doesn't necessarily mean prominent or famous.

[wolfhowwl]

Plaintiff wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

What were you expecting? DA2 tried to change things up and got mercilessly reamed for it.

It wasn't "mercilessly reamed" because the plot strayed away from saving the world.

It's absolutely a major contributing factor, I can't count the number of threads I encountered that complained about precisely that.

I'm sure it was a contributing factor.

There were also many, many complaints about the very poor writing from people who didn't object to the ideas Bioware had for the game just the terrible implementation of them.

Modifié par wolfhowwl, 22 novembre 2013 - 12:44 .

[HiroVoid]

and all of the waves....the waves....and the exact same areas.....and other stuff I didn't care for, but didn't make me stop playing, but was a contributing factor.

[Sebby]

HiroVoid wrote...

and all of the waves....the waves....and the exact same areas.....and other stuff I didn't care for, but didn't make me stop playing, but was a contributing factor.

DA2 was rushed mediocrity at it's finest.

I will say this though, it's a better sequel than that POS ME2 that utterly wrecked continuity and the universe of that franchise and it had a better premise(even if the execution was hella bad).

[Jaison1986]

Seboist wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

and all of the waves....the waves....and the exact same areas.....and other stuff I didn't care for, but didn't make me stop playing, but was a contributing factor.

DA2 was rushed mediocrity at it's finest.

I will say this though, it's a better sequel than that POS ME2 that utterly wrecked continuity and the universe of that franchise and it had a better premise(even if the execution was hella bad).

Extremely unpopular opinion considering how ME2 got critical acclaim from critics and players alike everywere.

[Jorji Costava]

I'd say that one problem for DA2 is that it tried to play things both ways a bit too much. On the one hand, it's a "rise to power" narrative. Both the marketing campaign and the game itself emphasize that Hawke is the "champion of Kirkwall." That tends to engender an expectation that the PC will be a big deal and will be able to exert a large degree of control over how all of the world-shaping events and decisions will shake out.

On the other hand, DA2 also seemed to be making an effort towards moving away from the Hero's Journey and Fate-of-Nations-style decision making; it's a story where the Protagonist doesn't necessarily have all the answers. That's a praiseworthy goal in and of itself, but I think the Champion of Kirkwall business encouraged a different set of expectations, and that resulted in some of the disappointment in the game.

[Ryzaki]

I don't mind a save the world story. BW does them well. Plus one would think a familiar archetype like that would give them time to perfect it and iron out the kinks.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Over the river and through the woods, it's off to save the world again.

[AtreiyaN7]

And we should have another goal besides saving the world? To raise the best turnips, perhaps? As a general rule, I think one can expect that in the majority of games, it comes down to the protagonist saving the world one way or another.

[Dave of Canada]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

To raise the best turnips, perhaps?

Now I want to play Harvest Moon again.

[Mr.House]

Dave of Canada wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

To raise the best turnips, perhaps?

Now I want to play Harvest Moon again.

My turnips where pretty epic.

[Plaintiff]

wolfhowwl wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

What were you expecting? DA2 tried to change things up and got mercilessly reamed for it.

It wasn't "mercilessly reamed" because the plot strayed away from saving the world.

It's absolutely a major contributing factor, I can't count the number of threads I encountered that complained about precisely that.

I'm sure it was a contributing factor.

There were also many, many complaints about the very poor writing from people who didn't object to the ideas Bioware had for the game just the terrible implementation of them.

Yes, terrible implementation like Hawke being unable to see the future and circumnavigate the plot completely to found everlasting peace between mages and templars or blah blah blah the poster's pet issue.

In short, his inability to save the world.

[iOnlySignIn]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

And we should have another goal besides saving the world? To raise the best turnips, perhaps?

To punch/shoot/stab as many people in the face as possible while saying the most hilarious one-liners.