177 réponses à ce sujet

[iOnlySignIn]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

And we should have another goal besides saving the world? To raise the best turnips, perhaps? 

To punch/shoot/stab as many people in the face as possible while saying the most hilarious one-liners.

Darth Death wrote...

BioWare has been recycling the "gathering of forces to beat the bad guy" idea for years now.

I never tire of this formula. If BioWare deviates from it noticeably in any way (as, for example, during ME3's ending) I (and a big part of the fanbase too, I imagine) would be outraged.

BioWare is a company that provides specific products. "gathering of forces to beat the bad guy" is primary among these products. Getting rid of it would be similar to how Microsoft got rid of the Start Menu in Windows 8 - not a very good idea.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 22 novembre 2013 - 01:51 .

[AtreiyaN7]

Mr.House wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

To raise the best turnips, perhaps?

Now I want to play Harvest Moon again.

My turnips where pretty epic.

I must admit, I felt a similar urge to pop in my copy of Harvest Moon after making that comment (and yes, my turnips were pretty darned epic too!).

[AresKeith]

Plaintiff wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

I'm sure it was a contributing factor.

There were also many, many complaints about the very poor writing from people who didn't object to the ideas Bioware had for the game just the terrible implementation of them.

Yes, terrible implementation like Hawke being unable to see the future and circumnavigate the plot completely to found everlasting peace between mages and templars or blah blah blah the poster's pet issue.

In short, his inability to save the world.

Or.. how about Hawke's Rise to Power

[Nole]

It's always about saving the world, my friend, and that won't change.

[Ash Wind]

Reaverwind wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

What can I say? I like stories of personal ascension. Which is why I also like DA2's story. It had little to do with saving the world and everything with gaining a place and a reputation of power in your new home city (sometimes I really wonder why people didn't like it, the unsatisfying ending notwithstanding). 

Hawke was little more than an errand boy throughout the story, that's why. 

Sorry, but I have to agree with the second statement here. What exactly did Hawke ascend to? Having more money than he/she had before the game started...? Yeah, that never happens in games of all types. His power, if you can even call it that, was little more than PR.

You have no power in the game, and get to make few effectual decisions. Can't save your first sibling... that's decided by your class. Can't save your mother who gets killed in an unintentionally funny game plot. What happens to your second sibling is dependent on your choice of who goes on the expedition, nothing more. Kill the Arishok or betray Isabella, is about the only meaningful choice. The choice of whom you side with in the Mage/Templar conflict determines little more than who'll you'll fight in the finale. Insane Templars or Every-Mage-is-an-Abomination.

If its that or Save the world from tearing itself apart, I choose the latter. I rather make decisions that count and have repercussions on the world stage.

Modifié par Ash Wind, 22 novembre 2013 - 01:59 .

[Mr.House]

Plaintiff wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

What were you expecting? DA2 tried to change things up and got mercilessly reamed for it.

It wasn't "mercilessly reamed" because the plot strayed away from saving the world.

It's absolutely a major contributing factor, I can't count the number of threads I encountered that complained about precisely that.

I'm sure it was a contributing factor.

There were also many, many complaints about the very poor writing from people who didn't object to the ideas Bioware had for the game just the terrible implementation of them.

Yes, terrible implementation like Hawke being unable to see the future and circumnavigate the plot completely to found everlasting peace between mages and templars or blah blah blah the poster's pet issue.

In short, his inability to save the world.

I brought Anders tro the gallows and told Cullen what was going on and he did NOTHING because the plot demanded. Cullen doing nothing is plain stupid.  So yes it's not because it was not saving the world people disliked, it was the writing quality and too many really stupid parts.

[Plaintiff]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...
And we should have another goal besides saving the world?

Yes. At least some of the time.

To raise the best turnips, perhaps?

To get revenge? To find a stolen item? To seek out fame and fortune? To pay off a debt? To rescue a friend or family member? To solve a murder? To return home? To escape persecution?

There are dozens and dozens of personal, character-driven goals, having nothing to do with 'saving the world', that can provide the basis for an excellent narrative all by themselves. Every other entertainment medium has managed to figure that out.

As a general rule, I think one can expect that in the majority of games, it comes down to the protagonist saving the world one way or another.

But there's no reason it has to be that way.

[wolfhowwl]

Plaintiff wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

What were you expecting? DA2 tried to change things up and got mercilessly reamed for it.

It wasn't "mercilessly reamed" because the plot strayed away from saving the world.

It's absolutely a major contributing factor, I can't count the number of threads I encountered that complained about precisely that.

I'm sure it was a contributing factor.

There were also many, many complaints about the very poor writing from people who didn't object to the ideas Bioware had for the game just the terrible implementation of them.

Yes, terrible implementation like Hawke being unable to see the future and circumnavigate the plot completely to found everlasting peace between mages and templars or blah blah blah the poster's pet issue.

In short, his inability to save the world.

People complained about Hawke being rendered ineffectual by a crummy game taped together by blatant railroading.

Of course people wanted to circumnavigate the plot, Hawke is railroaded into being a moron so the game can proceed to the next cutscene.

For example Anders doesn't succeed because his plot is brilliant, it only works because Hawke can't do anything so the game can finally stagger to its conclusion.

Modifié par wolfhowwl, 22 novembre 2013 - 02:06 .

[durasteel]

Seboist wrote...
DA2 was rushed mediocrity at it's finest.

I will say this though, it's a better sequel than that POS ME2 that utterly wrecked continuity and the universe of that franchise and it had a better premise(even if the execution was hella bad).

It was, actually, some of the finest work I've seen under those time contraints. Compare it to Obsidian's KotOR2, and you can see that BioWare really played pretty well with the hand that they were dealt.

I can't imagine where your vitriol over ME2 comes from, though. ME2 wasn't perfect, but I was certainly left wanting more, eager for the next installment. After ME3 I wanted someone to tell me I had been punked and the real ending was something that wasn't stupid, but... yeah. Casey and the Montreal guys are actually gonna have to convince me to buy another Mass Effect game. I'll try to be open minded, but I'm pretty skeptical at the moment. If it is a prequel, it is gonna have to be f-ing amazing.

[GreyLycanTrope]

AresKeith wrote...
Or.. how about Hawke's Rise to Power

That rise to power aspect was what I found lacking actually, being Champion just made you a glorified city errand person, your opinion on the issue at hand was still largely ignored by the associated parties, and even if you do become vicount it's only mentioned in passing by Varric at the end and nothing much comes of it. The Destiny trailer sold me on a slightly different concept.

[durasteel]

Greylycantrope wrote...
That rise to power aspect was what I found lacking actually, being Champion just made you a glorified city errand person, your opinion on the issue at hand was still largely ignored by the associated parties, and even if you do become vicount it's only mentioned in passing by Varric at the end and nothing much comes of it. The Destiny trailer sold me on a slightly different concept.

You were not so much an errand boy as an epic janitor. Major factions would poo all over the floor and leave you to clean it up.

[nightscrawl]

*Sigh* Seriously? People complained complained about DAO's storyline so they did something different for DA2 and then people complained about that. No one is ever happy.

[slimgrin]

nightscrawl wrote...

*Sigh* Seriously? People complained complained about DAO's storyline so they did something different for DA2 and then people complained about that. No one is ever happy.

People complained that DA2 failed in its execution. Not that it tried something new.

[Sebby]

durasteel wrote...

Seboist wrote...
DA2 was rushed mediocrity at it's finest.

I will say this though, it's a better sequel than that POS ME2 that utterly wrecked continuity and the universe of that franchise and it had a better premise(even if the execution was hella bad).

It was, actually, some of the finest work I've seen under those time contraints. Compare it to Obsidian's KotOR2, and you can see that BioWare really played pretty well with the hand that they were dealt.

I can't imagine where your vitriol over ME2 comes from, though. ME2 wasn't perfect, but I was certainly left wanting more, eager for the next installment. After ME3 I wanted someone to tell me I had been punked and the real ending was something that wasn't stupid, but... yeah. Casey and the Montreal guys are actually gonna have to convince me to buy another Mass Effect game. I'll try to be open minded, but I'm pretty skeptical at the moment. If it is a prequel, it is gonna have to be f-ing amazing.

The "vitrol" over ME2 stems from the fact that it was a complete waste of time that focused on a collection of inane daddy issues that had nothing to do with anything and it's failure to advance the overrall plot one iota. ME3 was doomed from the start thanks to it.

DA OTOH was never meant to be an overrarching story carried across a trilogy(thankfully), so DA2 only ends up destroying itself instead of a whole trilogy like ME2 did(which should've been called "Mass Effect too").

[Silfren]

nightscrawl wrote...

*Sigh* Seriously? People complained complained about DAO's storyline so they did something different for DA2 and then people complained about that. No one is ever happy.

I doubt that complaints about Origins storyline is the reason they tried something new with DA2.  This is certainly the first I've heard of any significant numbers of people hating on Origins' story.

No, I think they tried something new just to...try something new.  It happens sometimes.

[Sylvius the Mad]

durasteel wrote...

I can't imagine where your vitriol over ME2 comes from, though. ME2 wasn't perfect, but I was certainly left wanting more, eager for the next installment.

ME2 encouraged me never to play another Mass Effect game.  I wasn't even tempted to get ME3.

[Medhia Nox]

There's a million different alternatives to saving the world.

Look at "The Walking Dead". While I thought it was very good, but not the masterpiece most do, it shows a clear objective and opportunities to roleplay.

Fallout games have a clear goal that, while it does involve a microcosmic version of "save the world" is absolutely not about fighting a world altering threat. (As already stated - you can split hairs until every story is literally the same.)

However, the save the world story is a tested narrative that often allows a designer/writer/etc. to leave out large swaths of detail because the gamer/reader already knows what is expected.

The only thing "wrong" with using it - is not using it well.

I think Bioware does such a tale quite well.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Plaintiff wrote...

To get revenge? To find a stolen item? To seek out fame and fortune? To pay off a debt? To rescue a friend or family member? To solve a murder? To return home? To escape persecution?

There are dozens and dozens of personal, character-driven goals, having nothing to do with 'saving the world', that can provide the basis for an excellent narrative all by themselves. Every other entertainment medium has managed to figure that out.

As have many CRPGs.

Just not recently.

[David7204]

And here I thought RPG characters were blank slates that can't have motives like fame and fortune, friends and family, or revenge?

[Allan Schumacher]

Play nice people.

[Sylvius the Mad]

David7204 wrote...

And here I thought RPG characters were blank slates that can't have motives like fame and fortune, friends and family, or revenge?

I'm talking about offering those sorts of options, not forcing them on players.

[David7204]

You don't 'offer' players a main plot. Games do not give you a dozen stories to pick and choose from. They give you one.

[Sylvius the Mad]

David7204 wrote...

You don't 'offer' players a main plot. Games do not give you a dozen stories to pick and choose from. They give you one.

I disagree.  I disagree that many RPGs have even had a "main" plot.

The story is written by the player through his gameplay choices.  That's the only story that matters.  Anything the designers write is merely background.  Flavour.

[David7204]

That is flatly nonsense. And if you really believed it, which you don't, you would forfeit any right to complain about the story in the first place, since it apparently doesn't exist.

[Medhia Nox]

@Sylvius the Mad: You said it yourself... ©RPG.

Only one game in the history of video games has come close to emulating tabletop - and it was a Bioware game. Neverwinter Nights Persistant Worlds could offer options without forcing them.

I think you might be raging against the limitations of the genre.