177 réponses à ce sujet

[HiroVoid]

David7204 wrote...

That is flatly nonsense. And if you really believed it, which you don't, you would forfeit any right to complain about the story in the first place, since it apparently doesn't exist.

You shouldn't tell Sylvianus what he doesn't believe.  He's been around a lot longer and has had the same arugments for years (as long as I've known, maybe around a decade).

[slimgrin]

David7204 wrote...

You don't 'offer' players a main plot. Games do not give you a dozen stories to pick and choose from. They give you one.

They give you a main plot with variations based on your choice. At least good RPG's do. As to the saving the world bit, yeah it works. It's mythology, it's primal. It's also one of the reasons I got away from fantasy literature for so long - it got stale and didn't speak to modern issues. Give me Martin with his historical/political dynamics or Sapkowski with his post modern subversion of high fantasy. Can't take the straightfoward stuff anymore. 

Modifié par slimgrin, 22 novembre 2013 - 04:25 .

[David7204]

It's interesting you say that considering modern BioWare games are mostly reconstructions, not straight examples at all.

Modifié par David7204, 22 novembre 2013 - 04:25 .

[HiroVoid]

slimgrin wrote...

David7204 wrote...

You don't 'offer' players a main plot. Games do not give you a dozen stories to pick and choose from. They give you one.

They give you a main plot with variations based on your choice. At least good RPG's do. As to the saving the world bit, yeah it works. It's mythology, it's primal. It's also one of the reasons I got away from fantasy literature for so long - it got stale and didn't speak to modern issues. Give me Martin with his historical/political dynamics or Sapkowski with his post modern subversion of high fantasy. Can't take the straightfoward stuff anymore. 

So what you're saying is that the Witcher games are better?

[Lord Raijin]

David Gaider wrote...

You are not "gathering allies", as I've sad previously. Nor is it all about mages and templars. There is, however, a pretty epic threat.

If that makes it the exact same as every other plot we've ever done, or any other fantasy plot, then I'd first be surprised you already know so much about DAI's plot... and then I'd realize you're simply making assumptions. Because of course we'll make sure our approach is as generic and dull as possible.

Though, no matter what, I'm sure you can reduce the plot until it starts to look like every other story with a major conflict. Absolutely.

I have no objection to "gathering allies" in DAI. In fact isn't that what you're suppose to be doing as the inquisitor? How can 1 organzation seal the veil and defeat powerful demons? The Warden essentinally had to take this route to end the Blight.

That is what I am under the impression when I saw the PC with the 5 rings on his fingers.


I'm hoping to get the mages and the templars to end their little war (either by force or by persuasion) to aid my organzation to save the world from demons.

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 22 novembre 2013 - 05:16 .

[Boycott Bioware]

In KotOR, we are actually the bad guy, we just lost our memory, "What? You really don't know? Ha Ha Ha!" - Malak. In the end we have to choose to join Bastila or not. There is no "gathering allies to face the evil one", there's Republic army and the Sith army, we don't lead any

DA2 somehow don't reach the epicness of KotOR, it is because Hawke don't have affiliation, unlike Revan while he/she lost memory she's on the quest from Jedi council, the revelation that is the turning point that could make the player reconsider everything, And then Bastila does have a point at the top of the temple

It is not the case of DA2. Hawke either always side with Templar or Mages, and in the end choosing based on already established sentiment. That is why DA2 failed. Edit : Not only that, both side turn against Hawke, so it is all for nothing

Modifié par Qistina, 22 novembre 2013 - 05:22 .

[AresKeith]

Lord Raijin wrote...

That is what I am under the impression when I saw the PC with the 5 rings on his fingers.


I'm hoping to get the mages and the templars to end their little war (either by force or by persuasion) to aid my organzation to save the world from demons.

That's not the PC

Also the thumb ring is most likely The Wardens than the Qunari

Modifié par AresKeith, 22 novembre 2013 - 05:21 .

[Lord Raijin]

AresKeith wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

That is what I am under the impression when I saw the PC with the 5 rings on his fingers.


I'm hoping to get the mages and the templars to end their little war (either by force or by persuasion) to aid my organzation to save the world from demons.

That's not the PC

Also the thumb ring is most likely The Wardens than the Qunari

Then who is it if it isn't the PC?

[Boycott Bioware]

Lord Raijin wrote...
Then who is it if it isn't the PC?

Darth Sidious

[AresKeith]

Lord Raijin wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

That is what I am under the impression when I saw the PC with the 5 rings on his fingers.


I'm hoping to get the mages and the templars to end their little war (either by force or by persuasion) to aid my organzation to save the world from demons.

That's not the PC

Also the thumb ring is most likely The Wardens than the Qunari

Then who is it if it isn't the PC?

I think it's just a random person handing the PC the sword

or just a promotional thing

[Lord Raijin]

Qistina wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...
Then who is it if it isn't the PC?

Darth Sidious

LOL

AresKeith wrote...
I think it's just a random person handing the PC the sword

or just a promotional thing

Not so random when he has those rings on his fingers. Unless if it's the antagonists who brainwashed everyone to fight against each other in a form of a distraction so he can have plenty of time to tear the veil.

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 22 novembre 2013 - 05:32 .

[Maria Caliban]

KC_Prototype wrote...

If the game ain't about saving the world, then we ain't playing the game! And it isn't a gather forces for the win thing, it's different. In video games, we are always the hero. Always.

How am I the hero of Gone Home?

Dave of Canada wrote...

Dragon Age 2 was a really ambitious plot, too ambitious for the time allocated to it.

Pretty much.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 22 novembre 2013 - 05:38 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

It's aizen, everyone was under his illusion power the whole time.

[Lord Raijin]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

It's aizen, everyone was under his illusion power the whole time.

Kyouka Suigetsu is quite flawless isn't it? 

[Cainhurst Crow]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

It's aizen, everyone was under his illusion power the whole time.

Kyouka Suigetsu is quite flawless isn't it? 

PC: Die! *Stabs aizen, aizen turns into love interest.*

Aizen standing behind PC: When did you think I wasn't using Kyouka Suigetsu?

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 22 novembre 2013 - 05:43 .

[Boycott Bioware]

Let's look at KotOR, no games at that time using "you are actually the evil bad guy but have memory lost" trope, and it is not LotR trope either, it's Star Wars.

The hero wake up in Endar Spire, greeted by Trask (not Ser Thrask), the main character totally blurred, don't know anything. Then meet a Republic soldier named Carth Onasi. Then off to save Bastila...there are actually hints there but a new player will not catch it. The main character become a Jedi, lots of hints there also. No matter if the player is Dark or Light, but the player never realized playing as "a former Dark Lord of the Sith", imagine that, the impact when on Leviathan

Jolee Bindo actually know who Revan is, the hologram on Kasyikk know who revan is, Juhani also know but she's not sure...almost everybody know who Revan is...but the new player don't catch that

See, that is a good story...the story is good.

Unlike DA2, KotOR have exploration, good side quests design, good companions quests, good main quest, although it is all simple because it is 10 years ago, but i can say KotOR is good compared with today games.

Look at Taris...the bounty hunter quests, it is not as simple as go and kill then collect reward, but there's stories behind it...Bendak Starkiller is a dueling hero, Matrix hiding from Davik, Sleven kill the whole family of Ulgos, Dia hurt Davik men to defend herself...the player may choose just kill them all or save some of them...to save Dia is by negotiate with Holdan, to save Matrix is by buying permacrete detonator...to kill Bendak is by winning the duel competitions

Look at Promise Land quest, finding the lost apprentice then the journals, then there's a story about Promise Land, the player have a choice to help Rukil or give the journal to Gendar...

Look at Mission brother quest, it related to main quest that is dealing with the Sand People, to execute the quest is by buying HK-47, disguising as Sand People, infiltrate the base, either negotiate with Sand People or kill them all, then Mission brother Griff have a job for the player

Bastila personal quest also related with the main quest

Look at the Trandoshan that harass Suvam Tan at the space station, Wookie problem with Czerka Slavers, the assassin quests from Manaan, the missing Selkath quest, the racist feud on Dantoine, and a lot more...

Even DA:O don't provide the same fun as KotOR, and DA2 totally out of it

Modifié par Qistina, 22 novembre 2013 - 05:54 .

[AresKeith]

I thought you said you was leaving Qistina

[Maria Caliban]

David7204 wrote...

It's always that way.

You never have the protagonist just coming up the solution to the problem, and particularly not in RPGs. For all intents and purposes, it's a DEM. One moment there's no solution to a problem, the next the protagonist thinks one up and there is. Where's the drama in that? Where's the conflict?

Have you never read Lord of the Rings? Everyone knows what the solution to the main problem is - throwing the One Ring into a volcano - the drama comes from the struggle to get to the volcano.

There's tons of drama where the solution is obvious because this gives the audience and the protagonists a clear goal to strive towards.

David7204 wrote...

Not only that, it's invisible to the audience. All the things viewers associate with science - test tubes bubbling, equations on chalkboards - those are just cosmetics. The real science is the thought. And the thought is invisible. How are audiences supposed to appreciate that? They can't.

No, real science is a methodology. And did you know about a recent invention called first-person viewpoint? It's where an entire book is nothing but the thoughts of the main character.

Pi is an excellent of example of a movie that constantly immerses you in the thoughts of the viewpoint character, and shows you his brilliance.

Heck, the last couple of Batman games had sections that happen only in Batman's head.

Dialogue, visualization, and voice over are all things that exist.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 22 novembre 2013 - 05:59 .

[Fredward]

Can I just pop in here and say I've been playing kotor 1 & 2 recently and 2 is SO MUCH BETTER. I wasn't expecting that at all. Although I should probably mention that I've never actually played 2 without the restoration mod. But with it? No contest.

Anyway I'd post something on topic but no one is saying anything I wanna argue against. Alas.

[Lord Raijin]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

PC: Die! *Stabs aizen, aizen turns into love interest.*

Aizen standing behind PC: When did you think I wasn't using Kyouka Suigetsu?

:devil:

[Boycott Bioware]

Revan is the center of the universe, but the game balance it out by making Revan is not the center of the universe to the player. Unlike Hawke and the Warden, everything is about Hawke and the Warden...Hawke this and Hawke that...Hawke kill an Orge...the Warden this and the Warden that...the Warden save Redcliff, the Warden solve Circle problem...

In KotOR, Revan is not a hero...he/she is there at those places searching for Star Maps, he/she not there to be a hero of the populace...look at Kashyyk, although Revan is there in the Wookie conflict, but he/she is not the hero of the Wookie...same in Tattoine and Manaan, Revan don't appear a hero who solve everyone problem...the conflicts design didn't make Revan a hero, he/she just involve in the conflict, but the conflict is not the main problem

That is what good about KotOR story, compared with DA:O and DA2, although Revan is the center of universe, but the game don't make it appear so

[Cainhurst Crow]

Qistina wrote...

Revan is the center of the universe, but the game balance it out by making Revan is not the center of the universe to the player. Unlike Hawke and the Warden, everything is about Hawke and the Warden...Hawke this and Hawke that...Hawke kill an Orge...the Warden this and the Warden that...the Warden save Redcliff, the Warden solve Circle problem...

In KotOR, Revan is not a hero...he/she is there at those places searching for Star Maps, he/she not there to be a hero of the populace...look at Kashyyk, although Revan is there in the Wookie conflict, but he/she is not the hero of the Wookie...same in Tattoine and Manaan, Revan don't appear a hero who solve everyone problem...the conflicts design didn't make Revan a hero, he/she just involve in the conflict, but the conflict is not the main problem

That is what good about KotOR story, compared with DA:O and DA2, although Revan is the center of universe, but the game don't make it appear so

Revan never had a choice in being evil.



He was always a puppet...of aizen.

[AresKeith]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Qistina wrote...

Revan is the center of the universe, but the game balance it out by making Revan is not the center of the universe to the player. Unlike Hawke and the Warden, everything is about Hawke and the Warden...Hawke this and Hawke that...Hawke kill an Orge...the Warden this and the Warden that...the Warden save Redcliff, the Warden solve Circle problem...

In KotOR, Revan is not a hero...he/she is there at those places searching for Star Maps, he/she not there to be a hero of the populace...look at Kashyyk, although Revan is there in the Wookie conflict, but he/she is not the hero of the Wookie...same in Tattoine and Manaan, Revan don't appear a hero who solve everyone problem...the conflicts design didn't make Revan a hero, he/she just involve in the conflict, but the conflict is not the main problem

That is what good about KotOR story, compared with DA:O and DA2, although Revan is the center of universe, but the game don't make it appear so

Revan never had a choice in being evil.



He was always a puppet...of aizen.

Don't insult the messiah of the Force

Xemnas > Revan *trollface*