141 réponses à ce sujet

[Argentoid]

Rasofe wrote...

Does it matter?
Miranda Lawson was heading Project Lazarus. Shepard may have turned into plasma for all she cared, she'd still put her/him back together just the way he/she was.

Of course, magic solves anything. Proof of good writing!

So the ending might go as well as this:

"Shepard beat the Reapers with a big, massive, mega powerful middle finger that entered the sky of Earth and came manly perals of sheet rock, then continued to forcefully mash his head with a hammer made of sandpaper and baby dolphin tears. The Reapers then died. The End."

And applying your logic, your respone would be "Does it matter? Shepard ended the Reaper threat for all I cared." 

Rasofe wrote...

Comic books are hardly that relevant. Mass Effect is a game.

Seriously, your suspension of disbelief amazes me.

Modifié par Argentoid, 22 novembre 2013 - 03:53 .

[trenq]

Rasofe wrote...

Does it matter?
Miranda Lawson was heading Project Lazarus. Shepard may have turned into plasma for all she cared, she'd still put her/him back together just the way he/she was.

miranda is dead

[Rasofe]

Argentoid wrote...

Rasofe wrote...

Does it matter?
Miranda Lawson was heading Project Lazarus. Shepard may have turned into plasma for all she cared, she'd still put her/him back together just the way he/she was.

Of course, magic solves anything. Proof of good writing!

So the ending might go as well as this:

"Shepard beat the Reapers with a big, massive, mega powerful middle finger that entered the sky of Earth and came manly perals of sheet rock, then continued to forcefully mash his head with a hammer made of sandpaper and baby dolphin tears. The Reapers then died. The End."

And applying your logic, your respone would be "Does it matter? Shepard ended the Reaper threat for all I cared." 

Rasofe wrote...

Comic books are hardly that relevant. Mass Effect is a game.

Seriously, your suspension of disbelief amazes me.

I'm happy to amaze you, bro.
*Good writing" has and always will be a way for people like you to throw hollow criticism around instead of saying anything meaningful. I don't particularly care how well a story is written or told, I only care if the story is good.

[AlexMBrennan]

Relying on contrived coincidences at every turn is why it's not a good story.

[David7204]

People seem to be struggling with that simple notion that human bodies do not (or at the very least, do not always) explode in a gush of guts and blood Fallout-style when hitting the ground at terminal velocity. Particularly not when they're wearing full body armor. You'd think it be an issue beyond debate, considering the evidence we have from skydiving accidents and whatnot. I guess not.

Modifié par David7204, 22 novembre 2013 - 10:42 .

[Sion1138]

He cracked a monumental fart which slowed his descent.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

People seem to be struggling with that simple notion that human bodies do not (or at the very least, do not always) explode in a gush of guts and blood Fallout-style when hitting the ground at terminal velocity. Particularly not when they're wearing full body armor. You'd think it be an issue beyond debate, considering the evidence we have from skydiving accidents and whatnot. I guess not.

I've seen what happens when a guy was wearing full body armor and smacked into the ground from 1200 feet.

He was paste.

Not to mention, a guy falling through the atmosphere at hypersonic speeds would've been incinerated by said atmosphere and if not, would have been a red splash in the snow. 

The only reason my assertion, backed by the formula provided by Volus Warlord, isn't the case here is because of writer magic. That's all it is. The only reason it's like this is because the writer says so. It's crap science.

I have no problem with Lazarus. I just wish they chose a different method of death. One that is actually possible to recover a body from.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Rasofe wrote...

Argentoid wrote...

Rasofe wrote...

Does it matter?
Miranda Lawson was heading Project Lazarus. Shepard may have turned into plasma for all she cared, she'd still put her/him back together just the way he/she was.

Of course, magic solves anything. Proof of good writing!

So the ending might go as well as this:

"Shepard beat the Reapers with a big, massive, mega powerful middle finger that entered the sky of Earth and came manly perals of sheet rock, then continued to forcefully mash his head with a hammer made of sandpaper and baby dolphin tears. The Reapers then died. The End."

And applying your logic, your respone would be "Does it matter? Shepard ended the Reaper threat for all I cared." 

Rasofe wrote...

Comic books are hardly that relevant. Mass Effect is a game.

Seriously, your suspension of disbelief amazes me.

I'm happy to amaze you, bro.
*Good writing" has and always will be a way for people like you to throw hollow criticism around instead of saying anything meaningful. I don't particularly care how well a story is written or told, I only care if the story is good.

'Good' is subjective. In a game that once prided itself on having a harder approach to Sci-fi (and by which it is still bound to, since it's established that the only changes from this universe and the game universe is the applied phlebotinum of Eezo), this is somehting that doesn't follow science or physics. I'd be fine if it were, say, Star Wars, but it's not. It was established to be much more in line with the real world. Therefore, from a scientific perspective, I hold a much higher suspension of disbelief for the series. This is something that breaks this suspension of disbelief.

It's like 'The Hurt Locker'. No matter how 'good' of a story people tell me it has, I will never see it as such since it isn't militarily accurate, which can completely ruin a movie for me since it isn't realistic to me. It claims to follow the lore, so to speak, of our own universe, yet nigh constantly breaks military regulation, procedure, and common sense that all I see is an inept action movie that happens to have a mildly military approach to it with directors who think the drama and angst of their actors is good for the military professionals that they are portraying. 

I don't handwaive bull**** because it makes for good storytelling if the story before didn't handwaive the bull****.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 22 novembre 2013 - 02:20 .

[dreamgazer]

Sion1138 wrote...

He cracked a monumental fart which slowed his descent.

Hey, that's a more convincing headcanon explanation than I've heard for some others!

[Erez Kristal]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

People seem to be struggling with that simple notion that human bodies do not (or at the very least, do not always) explode in a gush of guts and blood Fallout-style when hitting the ground at terminal velocity. Particularly not when they're wearing full body armor. You'd think it be an issue beyond debate, considering the evidence we have from skydiving accidents and whatnot. I guess not.

I've seen what happens when a guy was wearing full body armor and smacked into the ground from 1200 feet.

He was paste.

Not to mention, a guy falling through the atmosphere at hypersonic speeds would've been incinerated by said atmosphere and if not, would have been a red splash in the snow. 

The only reason my assertion, backed by the formula provided by Volus Warlord, isn't the case here is because of writer magic. That's all it is. The only reason it's like this is because the writer says so. It's crap science.

I have no problem with Lazarus. I just wish they chose a different method of death. One that is actually possible to recover a body from.

iakus wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Relevant blog post: Shepard's Atmospheric Entry 2.0

So Shep doesn't burn up, he just leaves a crater lined with red goo 

The biggest problem is that people believe shepard was falling through the athmosphere at hypersonic speed.
if that was correct shepard indeed would have been paste.

evidence leads to the conclusion shepard was not traveling at fast speeds towards the planet and was slowed down to alchera terminal velocity.

if you believe I am wrong with shepard speed then please state why you think shepard was traveling at fast speeds.
considering the damaged Normandy was traveling at a small fraction of light speed at a completely different direction.

dorktainian wrote...

ok. if shepard didnt burn up on re-entry, then his lungs would have exploded when exposed to space. when he hit the ground his remains would have been spread over such a large area that it would have been difficult to recognise anything about him.

unless shepard never left the planet in the first place.......

About shepard proposed exposure to vaccum and condition of lungs. if shepard was exposed to vaccum the state of his/her lungs would indeed have been bad. this leads to the conclusion the suit sealed itself before shepard was exposed to vaccum. preventing the exposure to toxic or vaccum.

shepard final cause of death were most likely one of the following : lack of oxygen, trauma from impact, freezing to death on the planet

Modifié par erezike, 22 novembre 2013 - 03:17 .

[Rasofe]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Relying on contrived coincidences at every turn is why it's not a good story.

"Your vision is pathetically limited."

[Kroitz]

Rasofe wrote...

... I don't particularly care how well a story is written or told, I only care if the story is good.

Earth. Shepard. Space. Normandy. Reapers. Blue Aliens. Let´s bang, okay? More reapers. Glowing child. Reapers dead.

Did you like it?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Rasofe wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Relying on contrived coincidences at every turn is why it's not a good story.

"Your vision is pathetically limited."

Your vision seems to be the one that is limited.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

erezike wrote...
The biggest problem is that people believe shepard was falling through the athmosphere at hypersonic speed.
if that was correct shepard indeed would have been paste.

evidence leads to the conclusion shepard was not traveling at fast speeds towards the planet and was slowed down to alchera terminal velocity.

if you believe I am wrong with shepard speed then please state why you think shepard was traveling at fast speeds.
considering the damaged Normandy was traveling at a small fraction of light speed at a completely different direction.

About shepard proposed exposure to vaccum and condition of lungs. if shepard was exposed to vaccum the state of his/her lungs would indeed have been bad. this leads to the conclusion the suit sealed itself before shepard was exposed to vaccum. preventing the exposure to toxic or vaccum.

shepard final cause of death were most likely one of the following : lack of oxygen, trauma from impact, freezing to death on the planet

dreamgazer wrote...
Relevant blog post: Shepard's Atmospheric Entry 2.0

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 22 novembre 2013 - 02:19 .

[Rasofe]

Cited:
"
'Good' is subjective. In a game that once prided itself on having a harder approach to Sci-fi (and by which it is still bound to, since it's established that the only changes from this universe and the game universe is the applied phlebotinum of Eezo), this is somehting that doesn't follow science or physics. I'd be fine if it were, say, Star Wars, but it's not. It was established to be much more in line with the real world. Therefore, from a scientific perspective, I hold a much higher suspension of disbelief for the series. This is something that breaks this suspension of disbelief.
"

Mhm. First off, I'm not sure who you're refering to about good being subjective, me or the guy I was quoting.
Secondly, consider QEC's, biotics, super-translators, medigel, or even the idea of a cooperative galaxy (let alone cooperative humanity).
Mass Effect is really good science fiction, and it has a really solid premise. What makes it good is NOT the setting though. So getting caught up on the damn details of things that are easily in line with the laws of narrative is only causing yourself unnecessary harm. I recommend against it.

Modifié par Rasofe, 22 novembre 2013 - 02:30 .

[Rasofe]

Kroitz wrote...

Rasofe wrote...

... I don't particularly care how well a story is written or told, I only care if the story is good.

Earth. Shepard. Space. Normandy. Reapers. Blue Aliens. Let´s bang, okay? More reapers. Glowing child. Reapers dead.

Did you like it?

What do you think.

[Kroitz]

Rasofe wrote...

Kroitz wrote...

Rasofe wrote...

... I don't particularly care how well a story is written or told, I only care if the story is good.

Earth. Shepard. Space. Normandy. Reapers. Blue Aliens. Let´s bang, okay? More reapers. Glowing child. Reapers dead.

Did you like it?

What do you think.

That you are transparently vague.

[Daemul]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
I have no problem with Lazarus. I just wish they chose a different method of death. One that is actually possible to recover a body from.

Shepard being  in a coma but needing substential cybenetic implants in order to survive would have worked much better. Simple, effective and no one would question it. Plus, they would avoid the giant minefield that is Shepard somehow having all his memories and personaltiy restored. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Rasofe wrote...
Mhm. First off, I'm not sure who you're refering to about good being subjective, me or the guy I was quoting.
Secondly, considert QEC's, biotics, super-translators, medigel, or even the idea of a cooperative galaxy (let alone cooperative humanity).
Mass Effect is really good science fiction, and it has a really solid premise. What makes it good is NOT the setting though. So getting caught up on the damn details of things that are easily in line with the laws of narrative is only causing yourself unnecessary harm. I recommend against it.

I'm quoting you. Because I honestly think your statement was rather arrogant and ill-thought.

Those are examples of things that make sense in the universe of Mass Effect. You missed the point of what I'm saying, ergo ignoratio elenchi. What I'm saying is that despite all of that technology of the future, according to the lore of the game, which, being set in a hypothetical future to our own, normal scientific facts and values are still in effect. 

Mass Effect is hard sci-fi: It's premise doesn't rely on space magic, like the Force for Star Wars, or magic for Harry Potter. Unless something is reasonably explained to be otherwise, modern science, history, etc. is assumed to be true. 

The manner of Shepard's death, specifically the manner of how his body survived atmospheric re-entry at very, very high speeds, is not believable. It isn't science. It breaks suspension of disbelief. No matter how good it might seem from a dramatic point of view (which really isn't all that great at all), it is worthless and unbelievable if it doesn't follow the lore. There are ways that they could have accomplished Shepard's death in a more believable or acceptable manner. They didn't need to fly him into a planet. In fact, I think that they should have had him suffocate and/or freeze by leaving his body drifting in space. That way, his body is intact, and they don't have to make an asspull with how his intact body survived a sitution that is legitimately not survivable without said asspull. 

The premise of Mass Effect is good because of the setting. The story on it's own really only is bout a 6/10, and I'm being generous. It's the setting, the characters, the themes, the smaller things, the galaxy, that makes Mass Effect. It's the way the player can interact with that universe. It's not the Reapers. It's not the main story behind them. Those really only get in the way. It's things like being able to see and interact with this world that makes it so enjoyable in my opinion.

That's what I mean by 'good is subjective'. Your idea of what makes Mass Effect good is nothing more than a mediocre but necessary establishment in my opinion.

By the way, 'laws of narrative?'

You're falling into Davidian territory there. 

As I said, for something to be good, it must be internally consistent (and externally consistent in matters where it applies, such as here). Too often, as the ME series wore on, it not only failed with internally consistency, but external as well (see Synthesis and here). As I said, suspension of disbelief. 

That is what keeps Mass Effect from being great, though I honestly believe now (and don't get me wrong, it is my favorite VG series with the best characters imo) that ME never really had a chance of being more than a very good video game.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Daemul wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
I have no problem with Lazarus. I just wish they chose a different method of death. One that is actually possible to recover a body from.

Shepard being  in a coma but needing substential cybenetic implants in order to survive would have worked much better. Simple, effective and no one would question it. Plus, they would avoid the giant minefield that is Shepard somehow having all his memories and personaltiy restored. 

I was thinking something more like from Star Wars: The Force Unleashed, when Galen Marek is betrayed by Vader on the Executor and stabbed and thrown out into space. Minus the stabbing part, have Shepard be ejected into space where he eventually asphyxiates and has his suit freeze (but it leaves his body perfectly intact). I think that would have been better.

[dreamgazer]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Mass Effect is hard sci-fi

It's harder than some give it credit for, sure, but it does get pretty squishy when you think a bit about the Prothean beacons/cipher and the Thorian, and other things going forward. 

[Daemul]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Daemul wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
I have no problem with Lazarus. I just wish they chose a different method of death. One that is actually possible to recover a body from.

Shepard being  in a coma but needing substential cybenetic implants in order to survive would have worked much better. Simple, effective and no one would question it. Plus, they would avoid the giant minefield that is Shepard somehow having all his memories and personaltiy restored. 

I was thinking something more like from Star Wars: The Force Unleashed, when Galen Marek is betrayed by Vader on the Executor and stabbed and thrown out into space. Minus the stabbing part, have Shepard be ejected into space where he eventually asphyxiates and has his suit freeze (but it leaves his body perfectly intact). I think that would have been better.

Yeah that would have worked too.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

dreamgazer wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Mass Effect is hard sci-fi

It's harder than some give it credit for, sure, but it does get pretty squishy when you think a bit about the Prothean beacons/cipher and the Thorian, and other things going forward. 

Indeed. I should say that because ME is hard sci-fi doesn't mean that it doesn't have things that are unbelievable in the context of the term.

Granted, I do think the explanation for the Prothean Beacon was passable, and the Thorian never really bothered me too much though I can see where there are issues with it.

[dreamgazer]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Mass Effect is hard sci-fi

It's harder than some give it credit for, sure, but it does get pretty squishy when you think a bit about the Prothean beacons/cipher and the Thorian, and other things going forward. 

Indeed. I should say that because ME is hard sci-fi doesn't mean that it doesn't have things that are unbelievable in the context of the term.

Granted, I do think the explanation for the Prothean Beacon was passable, and the Thorian never really bothered me too much though I can see where there are issues with it.

Trust me: me proclaiming something to be "softer" sci-fi doesn't necessarily mean that I take real issue with it, or even dislike it. That kinda goes part and parcel with the whole MEU, though: digging things while tolerating their flaws.  Hell, I have logistical issues with everything that happens at the tail end of Ilos (and zipping up to the Citadel), and that's my go-to answer for my favorite stretch of material in the series.

[Daemul]

I remember struggling quite badly with accepting the presence of the Asari the first time I played ME1. They should not exist.