141 réponses à ce sujet

[David7204]

Daemul wrote...

I remember struggling quite badly with accepting the presence of the Asari the first time I played ME1. They should not exist.

Why is that?

[Erez Kristal]

[quote]MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...


[/quote]

[quote]dreamgazer wrote...
Relevant blog post: Shepard's Atmospheric Entry 2.0[/quote][/quote]

that blog still doesn't prove shepard was entering the planet atmosphere at fast speeds.
for all we know shepard could have been traveling a few hundreds miles an hour.

Shepard body condition when found support the claim that shepard wasn't making his/her way towards the planet at high speeds. thousands of miles at best.

think of it this way. the Normandy wasn't making any evasive manuvers when shepard was propelled away from it by the explosion. which would mean that shepard was going at a different direction an was pushed and pulled towards alchera due to the explosion and the planets gravity. both weren't enough to burn away shepard armor.

impact speed with a planet only become relevant in a planet without an atmosphere. or in a case where shepard was wearing a super heat resistance armor. .

[Erez Kristal]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...


The manner of Shepard's death, specifically the manner of how his body survived atmospheric re-entry at very, very high speeds

What very very high speeds?
What speeds was shepard flying towards the planet.
this is the core of the debate because we all know what happens to an object when it enters the atmosphere.

We know the Normandy was flying at a very low fraction of light speed in a different direction then when do you insist shepard was entering the planet at very, very high speeds? what gave shepard this acceleration?

[dreamgazer]

Daemul wrote...

I remember struggling quite badly with accepting the presence of the Asari the first time I played ME1. They should not exist.

Their type existed in Farscape, one of ME's clear inspirations (along with Babylon 5), so it doesn't surprise me at all to see a version of them in this universe:

[dreamgazer]

erezike wrote...

Relevant blog post: Shepard's Atmospheric Entry 2.0

that blog still doesn't prove shepard was entering the planet atmosphere at fast speeds.
for all we know shepard could have been traveling a few hundreds miles an hour.

Shepard body condition when found support the claim that shepard wasn't making his/her way towards the planet at high speeds. thousands of miles at best.

think of it this way. the Normandy wasn't making any evasive manuvers when shepard was propelled away from it by the explosion. which would mean that shepard was going at a different direction an was pushed and pulled towards alchera due to the explosion and the planets gravity. both weren't enough to burn away shepard armor.

impact speed with a planet only become relevant in a planet without an atmosphere. or in a case where shepard was wearing a super heat resistance armor. .

So, your entire counter-position is, essentially, "magic sufficiently-advanced armor" and "because the story made it so".  Mmkay. 

Modifié par dreamgazer, 22 novembre 2013 - 03:38 .

[David7204]

The story is the ultimate authority, Dreamgazer. If it says something happened, it did. All other burdens of proof must work against that base assumption.

[GreyLycanTrope]

David7204 wrote...

The story is the ultimate authority, Dreamgazer. If it says something happened, it did. All other burdens of proof must work against that base assumption.

The story saying something happened isn't in dispute, it's that this event is plausible within the story's universe that's questionable.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 22 novembre 2013 - 03:41 .

[Daemul]

Where's the multi quote function on this forum?

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

The story is the ultimate authority, Dreamgazer. If it says something happened, it did. All other burdens of proof must work against that base assumption.

When the story offers contradictions to known science, the burden of proof falls on the material---and its author---to validate said contradictions within the text.  Else, it's negligent writing and well open to criticism. 

[David7204]

If it's not in dispute, then I shouldn't be hearing the sneering dismissal of the perfectly valid reasoning "because the story said so," should I?

[dreamgazer]

Daemul wrote...

Where's the multi quote function on this forum?

You have to "quote" something, copy it, then quote another post and paste the copied quote on top / underneath. 

[GreyLycanTrope]

Daemul wrote...

Where's the multi quote function on this forum?

There isn't one, you have to copy paste. I find opening different tabs helps.

[GreyLycanTrope]

David7204 wrote...

If it's not in dispute, then I shouldn't be hearing the sneering dismissal of the perfectly valid reasoning "because the story said so," should I?

You should because it's circular logic.

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

If it's not in dispute, then I shouldn't be hearing the sneering dismissal of the perfectly valid reasoning "because the story said so," should I?

Of course you should, when there are blatant contradictions that demand for the audience to rely on interpretation and vague "sufficiently-advanced technology" as an answer.

[Zazzerka]

3-hit combo!

[JasonShepard]

When, if ever, is it directly stated that Shepard was recovered from the planet's surface and was not simply drifting in space?

I don't remember ME2 being specific about where the Blue Suns found the boy, but I also never read ME:Redemption, so I don't know if it was stated in there.

So until someone proves to me that Shepard was canonically recovered from the planet surface, I'm happy simply assuming that the atmospheric re-entry never happened.

Modifié par JasonShepard, 22 novembre 2013 - 03:54 .

[David7204]

Whatever contradictions which may or may not exist are irrelevant. This is not the final word of the argument. It's the first word. The foundation on which everything in which a story is built upon. So if you're going to sneer, why don't you go sneer in the actual right direction instead of sneering at a valid premise?

[Erez Kristal]

dreamgazer wrote...

erezike wrote...

Relevant blog post: Shepard's Atmospheric Entry 2.0

that blog still doesn't prove shepard was entering the planet atmosphere at fast speeds.
for all we know shepard could have been traveling a few hundreds miles an hour.

Shepard body condition when found support the claim that shepard wasn't making his/her way towards the planet at high speeds. thousands of miles at best.

think of it this way. the Normandy wasn't making any evasive manuvers when shepard was propelled away from it by the explosion. which would mean that shepard was going at a different direction an was pushed and pulled towards alchera due to the explosion and the planets gravity. both weren't enough to burn away shepard armor.

impact speed with a planet only become relevant in a planet without an atmosphere. or in a case where shepard was wearing a super heat resistance armor. .

So, your entire counter-position is, essentially, "magic sufficiently-advanced armor" and "because the story made it so".  Mmkay. 

I said the armor was durable not magically durable.
I am saying that sheaprd speed was as fast as people like you try so hard to believe.

answer me this why would shepard by flying towards the planet in ultra sonic speeds if the Normandy was flying in a different direction??

dreamgazer wrote...

David7204 wrote...

If it's not in dispute, then I shouldn't be hearing the sneering dismissal of the perfectly valid reasoning "because the story said so," should I?

Of course you should, when there are blatant contradictions that demand for the audience to rely on interpretation and vague "sufficiently-advanced technology" as an answer.

What contradictions? where in the story does it say shepard was flying towards the planet in ultra sonic speeds or more? the entire premise that shepard body was supposed to turn into dust is taken from baseless assumptions of ultra sonic speed.

Modifié par erezike, 22 novembre 2013 - 03:57 .

[Iakus]

JasonShepard wrote...

When, if ever, is it directly stated that Shepard was recovered from the planet's surface and was not simply drifting in space?

I don't remember ME2 being specific about where the Blue Suns found the boy, but I also never read ME:Redemption, so I don't know if it was stated in there.

So until someone proves to me that Shepard was canonically recovered from the planet surface, I'm happy simply assuming that the atmospheric re-entry never happened.

Shepard's helmet is found on the surface of Alchera.

[OdanUrr]

dreamgazer wrote...

Relevant blog post: Shepard's Atmospheric Entry 2.0

I haven't checked the math but it appears sound. However, does anybody know if Onyx Armour incorporates mass effect fields somehow? If it does, one could then argue that the density of the falling object in the terminal velocity formula is less than 1000 kg/m^3. For instance, if a mass effect field were to alter density to 1 kg/m^3, then Shepard would be traveling at 2.77 m/s instead of 85 m/s.

But let's also remember Shepard's armor was leaking oxygen fast so he probably died from hypoxia long before he could worry about falling through the planet's atmosphere.

I'll check the math at home.

Modifié par OdanUrr, 22 novembre 2013 - 04:10 .

[AresKeith]

No combo-breaker on David?

[David7204]

iakus wrote...

Shepard's helmet is found on the surface of Alchera.

Considering it's explicitly said the helmet was still on the body when they recovered it, that helmet being the one Shepard was wearing at the time makes no sense either way. So we have to conclude it was another helmet.

Besides, like all the other items found on the ground for no reason in video games, we should consider the helmet semi-canoncal or even noncanoncal.

Modifié par David7204, 22 novembre 2013 - 04:16 .

[JasonShepard]

iakus wrote...

JasonShepard wrote...

When, if ever, is it directly stated that Shepard was recovered from the planet's surface and was not simply drifting in space?

I don't remember ME2 being specific about where the Blue Suns found the boy, but I also never read ME:Redemption, so I don't know if it was stated in there.

So until someone proves to me that Shepard was canonically recovered from the planet surface, I'm happy simply assuming that the atmospheric re-entry never happened.

Shepard's helmet is found on the surface of Alchera.

If Shepard had landed on Alchera, it's unlikely that he or she would have been anywhere near the Normandy crash-site, especially since by the end of the opening cinematic Shepard is nowhere near the ship itself.

Given that, and since it's easier to explain Lazarus by assuming Shepard didn't land on Alchera, I just assume that helmet was a spare. (Given ME1's inventory system, most Shepards will have had entire spare suits of armor by that point in time...) 

Modifié par JasonShepard, 22 novembre 2013 - 04:16 .