243 réponses à ce sujet

[David7204]

It sounds to me like you're arguing the protagonist is never 'out of character.' Because you no matter what, you can 'head-canon' that he has secret motives.

[Sylvius the Mad]

David7204 wrote...

It sounds to me like you're arguing the protagonist is never 'out of character.' Because you no matter what, you can 'head-canon' that he has secret motives.

I'm arguing that it should always be possible.  This does become difficult when the protagonist's behaviour isn't predicatable (as in DA2 and ME2)

[Angrywolves]

too many ME comparisons .
Can't there be discussions without always using ME?

[HiroVoid]

David7204 wrote...

It does if Shepard and Liara discuss what they're doing there. Which they do. And discuss how they plan to do it. Which they do. You'd think they'd at least mention revenge if it was on the agenda.

But they didn't not mention revenge?

[David7204]

Uhh...no...they did 'not mention' revenge.

[Cainhurst Crow]

David7204 wrote...

It does if Shepard and Liara discuss what they're doing there. Which they do. And discuss how they plan to do it. Which they do. You'd think they'd at least mention revenge if it was on the agenda.

What other motivation could Shepard have aside from helping Liara?

Oh I don't know, trying to make the person who tried to have one of their friends and possible love interest killed, who murdered hundreds of people in a single building to try and do it, and almost assassinated shepard and comprosied the spectres in doing so?(Vasir was a spectre, and a decorated one at that. It poses quite the compromise in galactic safety to have an information arms dealer have an agent with top level clearance in place).

There are many more reasons then just "liara asked for my help so okie dokie."

[Cainhurst Crow]

Angrywolves wrote...

too many ME comparisons .
Can't there be discussions without always using ME?

This is david we're talking about. He can't talk about games without bringing up the only games he's played from bioware.

[David7204]

Shepard agreed to help Liara find the Broker before of that happened.

[Sylvius the Mad]

David7204 wrote...

Uhh...no...they did 'not mention' revenge.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

[HiroVoid]

David7204 wrote...

Uhh...no...they did 'not mention' revenge.

but they did not mention that it wasn't not because of revenge.

[Cainhurst Crow]

David7204 wrote...

Shepard agreed to help Liara find the Broker before of that happened.

He agreeing to help her out in the beginning and trying to find the shadow broker could be for a number of reasons. Curiosity about the enigmatic figure. Personal opposition to the idea of a galactic wide info broker exsisting. And yes, loyalty to liara and doing it out of friendship.

But after that, the reason of revenge has more then enough evidence to be supported.

[Vilegrim]

David Gaider wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I would like to add (and I have mentioned it earlier) that while BioWare does often require that the PC do heroic things, BioWare does not typically (I can't think of a single example, actually) require that the PC actually be heroic.

The PC can do heroic things for entirely unheroic reasons, and BioWare has generally done a really good job of supporting that, even if only by not making explicit what the PC's motives were.

This is, I think, the important element that needs to be preserved.

Yep. A heroic story need not require heroic motivations. I'm not sure why anyone would assume we'd suddenly start imposing such on the player, but whatever.

According to a loose enough definition of 'hero', we qualify. Well, more or less. The point is that good deeds were done and we were nearby.
— Red Mage, "We Could Be Heroes"


The two extremes to me are the most fun, as the replay differences give you a real feel for how far the story will let you go.

(In the case of Fallout:NV , a brilliant game imho, the answer was: as far as the certification system will let us, and it was glorious.) 

Modifié par Vilegrim, 29 novembre 2013 - 10:55 .

[Eternal Phoenix]

LOLandStuff wrote...

Oblivion.

PC: Yeah, man. I was right there. Right under Mehrun Dagon.
Someone: Wow, what did you do? Did you kill him?
PC: Nope. I escorted the king.
Someone: And then you killed him, right?
PC: I just stood there and watched them fight. VIP lodge. It pays to know the king.

No it's more like this:

Oblivion hero: "I got bossed around by multiple people and in the end Martin saved us all by pulling his special ability out of his ass, where he had been hiding it all this time, just at the last minute when all hope seemed lost. I, meanwhile, had ran off like a **** into the nearby building because I couldn't defeat the antagonist of this tale. Martin then sacrificed himself to defeat Mehrun to save everyone including me. Why didn't he do that from the start instead of invalidating all the stuff I did which was all in vain by the end? I'm the worst hero ever. Even worst than the Fable hero. I effectively achieved nothing other than escorting Martin to his destination."

Fable hero: "If it's any consolation. At least you didn't get raped in prison..."

Oblivion hero: "Ummm, well, I was kinda of Martin's little ***** as I had picked up this special technique in prison where I could [censored] with my tongue. I think that's the real reason the emperor lied to my face about me being a destined hero. Anyone could have achieved what I did by escorting Martin. I escorted him in the modern sense of the word."

Fable Hero: "Hmmm. Can you [censored] me with your tongue?"

Oblivion hero: "Well I guess so. It's not like I have anything going for me now since Bethesda's fanbase think that I'm canonically sheogorath. Alright sir! Bend over!"

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 30 novembre 2013 - 12:36 .

[Siegdrifa]

David7204 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Shadow Broker is working with the Collectors, no? Including wanting to sell Shepard's own body to them.

All the dialogue points to Shepard and Liara wanting to avoid the Broker unless it's necessary. They only confront him to shut off the power and free Feron. No, I don't see any revenge from Shepard there.

What ?
Liara in ME2 : "it is more accurate to say that the shadow broker is on the run from me" ... Who is avoiding who ?

Liara clearly explain that she is hunting the shadow broker since 2 years ... and this is the reason why she can't follow you as a crew member.

She does not want to confront him unless it is "necessary" ?

Liara : "and when i find the shadow broker, i hit him with a biotic field so strong that what's left of his body will fit into a coffe cup".

Sorry but it sounds to me that she is really motivated and looking for the shadow broker's head; she worked 2 years hunting him because the SB tryed to sell Shep's body to the collectors and keeping feron as a prisoner.
This can also give a good RP reason for Shep to get revenge too, especialy after what we have to go through on the DLC.



By the way, when you launch the DLC it's "let's get the shadow broker" and not "let's get feron and avoid if possible the Shadow Broker" ...

Modifié par Siegdrifa, 30 novembre 2013 - 04:00 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Ho ho ho, this is where I take your quote way out of context and studiously ignore your signature.

I don't think that statement requires any context.  It's always true.

[senorbluez88]

I think bioware went the extra mile in the direction of storytelling, by even creating dlc that allows players to assume the role of a darkspawn destroying Denerim. But on the topic of cliche, which is the op, I would draw a direct correlation to music, in that the form of most pieces of music is identical. The author/artist/ composers ingenuity at storytelling is derived from working with a common denominator, (i.e: a "hero" theme, or a 2-5-1 chord progression or a nude model). I believe all great art begins with an improvisation on an existing concept. To me, nothing is truly original in the pure sense. There is a reason why certain base concepts and forms and even adages, are cliche. Maybe a higher consciousness that's evolved through all peoples of the world, over time. Mr. Gaider and teams storytelling in this medium of interactive art is masterful. I trust my money will be well spent on the 3rd installment of this series.

[shootist70]

David Gaider wrote...


Yep. A heroic story need not require heroic motivations. I'm not sure why anyone would assume we'd suddenly start imposing such on the player, but whatever.

Yes, in the decades since Catch 22 the concept of idealistic sacrifices and actions  - 'it is glorious and right to die for one's country', has slowly but deeply fallen out of fashion and their niaive simplicity just washes over a more modern, sophisticated audience. Even the cliche of a darker hero/heroine ultimately finding the idealism within themselves has become passe - it's not what audiences want to see anymore.

I say a 'modern' audience, but what we really have is a return to a more Elizabethan style of drama, rife with cynicism - where questioning humanity and human motives is far more compelling than a Hero's Journey. We want to see the interplay between characters where the looming shadow of war/greater conflict is simply the background threat that drives the forreground character interplay with intensity along familiar, smaller themes: love, lust, romance, betrayal, jealousy, murder etc etc. Somebody like Othello might have been a general sent to rid Cyprus of the Turks, but it's irrelevant compared to the 'action' between himself, Desdemona, and the jealous plotters who plan their downfall.

It's interesting to take a look at sci-fi over the past few decades to see how this has panned out nowadays - from the clean-cut, heroic characters from the various Star Trek series, who were very event driven and fairly one-dimensional - to the very character driven people in something like The Walking Dead, were the zombies are almost incidental and actually take a back seat to the soap-opera like interplay between the still living characters.

That seems to be because the meaning of catharsis seems to change through the ages. We no longer give a stuff if some hero/heroine idealistically saves some fantasy/historical world that never existed/doesn't exist anymore. We want to see the Everyman/Everywoman resolve all manner of personal, human conflicts to facilitate some greater resolution that might, just might, save the world. But that particular ending doesn't matter, it's how we get there that counts.

I actually see games like the ME/DA series as a great format for this sort of drama - the dialogue possibilities playing out amongst a limited set of characters on a limited stage - where your choices might determine which act or scene comes next. Or maybe just the overall tone and direction of a particular scene, accumulating towards a particular ending.

Modifié par shootist70, 05 décembre 2013 - 02:11 .

[Vilegrim]

David Gaider wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I would like to add (and I have mentioned it earlier) that while BioWare does often require that the PC do heroic things, BioWare does not typically (I can't think of a single example, actually) require that the PC actually be heroic.

The PC can do heroic things for entirely unheroic reasons, and BioWare has generally done a really good job of supporting that, even if only by not making explicit what the PC's motives were.

This is, I think, the important element that needs to be preserved.

Yep. A heroic story need not require heroic motivations. I'm not sure why anyone would assume we'd suddenly start imposing such on the player, but whatever.

Because it is getting increasingly hard to express none heroic motives in a meaningful way?  Sister Petriece in DA2 springs to mind: Why do I care?  Who SHOULD I care?  But no I MUST help her...sertiously?  Why not slit the idiots throat and steal her stuff, thus avoiding messing with the Qunari of all people?  Or maybe I have sympathies with the Qun..why must I lead this renegade to freedom?  Straight back to the settlement for him. But no, railroaded into the 'heroic' free him choice.

That's why I fear being made into a heroic character the amount of railroading that has been creeping in (and having played BG and BG2 EE certainly was not a feature before, yes kill Saverok, but he wants to kill you, so everyone can get behind shanking him in the kidneys, and you can be a complete monster on your way to do it, wrecking things far worse than he has managed, Yes kill Irenicus, to steal his power, for great justice or simple because you like making people scream, all those are catered for, DA:O lowered this level, and DA2 reduced it to 'sarcastic/beserk/paladin' who ALL DID THE SAME THING anyway,  A false choice is no choice.

Meaningful choices please TW2 manages it, a whole act that is utterly different depending on which side you chose, major NPCs getting maimed by your actions or inactions, nations falling, or standing, by your choices and how good you are a xanthos speed chess. THAT is meaningful. 3 different tones of voice to use when agreeing to be the hero are not.