243 réponses à ce sujet

[Allan Schumacher]

No. You do not have stories where Average Joe goes to his boring job, works, goes home, watches TV, and goes to sleep with nothing else happening. You do not have stories of people being stuck in traffic. Or using the bathroom. Or filing documents. There's always something else. Always.

Sure you do. They just aren't very interesting stories.


By definition, a story is: "an account of imaginary or real people and events told for entertainment."

The resolution of conflict is the basis of all narrative. If there is no
conflict, there is no story. Very short stories can get away with
proportionally very small conflicts, but there's always at least a
trickle of something out-of-the-ordinary.

This absolutely is not correct.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 22 novembre 2013 - 11:47 .

[Allan Schumacher]

why Allan why??

I closed the last one because of inane picture spam and couldn't be bothered to try to clean it up.

[ruggly]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

No. You do not have stories where Average Joe goes to his boring job, works, goes home, watches TV, and goes to sleep with nothing else happening. You do not have stories of people being stuck in traffic. Or using the bathroom. Or filing documents. There's always something else. Always.

Sure you do. They just aren't very interesting stories.


By definition, a story is: "an account of imaginary or real people and events told for entertainment."

The resolution of conflict is the basis of all narrative. If there is no
conflict, there is no story. Very short stories can get away with
proportionally very small conflicts, but there's always at least a
trickle of something out-of-the-ordinary.

This absolutely is not correct.

Don't do it, Allen!  It will all be for naught!

[David7204]

It is correct.

Maybe not in the sense of there being some physical law preventing certain words from existing in a certain order, but in just about every other. Storytellers don't make stories like that and people don't spend time with them.

[TeamLexana]

David7204 wrote...

No. You do not have stories where Average Joe goes to his boring job, works, goes home, watches TV, and goes to sleep with nothing else happening. You do not have stories of people being stuck in traffic. Or using the bathroom. Or filing documents. There's always something else. Always.

The resolution of conflict is the basis of all narrative. If there is no conflict, there is no story. Very short stories can get away with proportionally very small conflicts, but there's always at least a trickle of something out-of-the-ordinary. 

Well there is The Sims 1, 2, and 3 with all their expansions and console versions....

I maaay have dabbled in them when I was younger.. maybe... I'll never tell! 

[HiroVoid]

TeamLexana wrote...

David7204 wrote...

No. You do not have stories where Average Joe goes to his boring job, works, goes home, watches TV, and goes to sleep with nothing else happening. You do not have stories of people being stuck in traffic. Or using the bathroom. Or filing documents. There's always something else. Always.

The resolution of conflict is the basis of all narrative. If there is no conflict, there is no story. Very short stories can get away with proportionally very small conflicts, but there's always at least a trickle of something out-of-the-ordinary. 

Well there is The Sims 1, 2, and 3 with all their expansions and console versions....

I maaay have dabbled in them when I was younger.. maybe... I'll never tell! 

I was about to say the same thing.   Heck, we don't even have to go to other forms of media for those kinds of stories.

[Allan Schumacher]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Sylvius the Mad: Because nobody wants to read a story about an ordinary person that does nothing extraordinary.

How are those the only two options?  A character can be exceptional and ambitious and successful without being heroic.  Villains are an excellent example.

I , personally, don't find RPGs as interesting if my character is presupposed to be exceptional.  I'd much rather play an unexceptional character, who then goes on to do exceptional things.  That would be far more triumphant.

Medhia's post gives me the inclination that they are also okay with being ordinary and doing extraordinary things.

I don't think there's any indication that the protagonist must be an exceptional character in their own right.  Just that they do something interesting.

[Allan Schumacher]

David7204 wrote...

It is correct.

Maybe not in the sense of there being some physical law preventing certain words from existing in a certain order, but in just about every other. Storytellers don't make stories like that and people don't spend time with them.

Irrelevant.

That a story is or is not good doesn't make it any less a story.


If you're going to be patronizing and condescending to fellow posters and state something like "A story by definition" you better use an actual definition of the word story.

Your entire second paragraph has nothing to do with what a story is.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

David7204 wrote...

Stories are, by their very definition, the unlikely, the unexpected, the uncanny, the unanticipated, the unique. So they've got to either have extraordinary characters or extraordinary events involving them.

So sure, you can have a story about a heroin addict. Or a guy about to lose his house. But your story can't just leave things at that. There needs to be something happening. We've got to go beyond just a heroin addict. Beyond just a broke guy. And it might be something quiet and generally invisible, like the guy losing his house thinking about his life and coming to some powerful conclusion or whatever. But it's still something extraordinary. How many days do we have revelations like that in our lives?

This is only for stories in general, of course. For BioWare games, it's beyond question. Heroism is absolutely necessity.

So close, but then you tripped at the finish line.

In truth, all bioware games need to do is place us in the shoes of that heroin addict or now homeless person, and let us have semi-autonomous control of what decisions the guy makes. If he decides to become a big old hero and such fine. But if the player decides they should go completely into the drug trade, becoming the kingpin to make loads of money, that isn't any less bad, but isn't heroic either.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

David7204 wrote...

No. You do not have stories where Average Joe goes to his boring job, works, goes home, watches TV, and goes to sleep with nothing else happening. You do not have stories of people being stuck in traffic. Or using the bathroom. Or filing documents. There's always something else. Always.

It's called a slice of life story.

[David7204]

It's completely relevant. I'm not going to compromise a very useful definition for the .0001% of fan fiction that might not be in tune with it and is given no attention in any case.

As for conflict, it has everything to do with what a story is.

And "patronizing and condescending"? My post was in response to someone outright saying that my words were a result from being sheltered from fiction.

Modifié par David7204, 23 novembre 2013 - 12:10 .

[David7204]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

So close, but then you tripped at the finish line.

In truth, all bioware games need to do is place us in the shoes of that heroin addict or now homeless person, and let us have semi-autonomous control of what decisions the guy makes. If he decides to become a big old hero and such fine. But if the player decides they should go completely into the drug trade, becoming the kingpin to make loads of money, that isn't any less bad, but isn't heroic either.

Ah, but BioWare games don't do that.

Instead, they go absolutely out of their way to fill their stories will heroic themes and imagery. A very powerful, very competent protagonist. Choices that matter. Rising above warring factions and other pettiness. All that and much more. It's made very clear. So the audience is justified in expecting the actions of the protagonist (possibly) to match up with themes of the story and justified in being angry when they don't.

Modifié par David7204, 23 novembre 2013 - 12:12 .

[TeamLexana]

MasterScribe wrote...

TeamLexana wrote...

Well there is The Sims 1, 2, and 3 with all their expansions and console versions....

I maaay have dabbled in them when I was younger.. maybe... I'll never tell! 

Reveal your secrets to me.

It's imperative for the survival of the planet. 

NEVER! 

[Wulfram]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Tharja wrote...

well if you don't want to save the world what the heck is the hero supposed to do?

Why should we presuppose heroism?

Because Dragon Age is dark heroic fantasy

[The Flying Grey Warden]

David7204 wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

So close, but then you tripped at the finish line.

In truth, all bioware games need to do is place us in the shoes of that heroin addict or now homeless person, and let us have semi-autonomous control of what decisions the guy makes. If he decides to become a big old hero and such fine. But if the player decides they should go completely into the drug trade, becoming the kingpin to make loads of money, that isn't any less bad, but isn't heroic either.

Ah, but BioWare games don't do that.

Instead, they go absolutely out of their way to fill their stories will heroic themes and imagery. A very powerful, very competent protagonist. Choices that matter. Rising above warring factions.

None of that has to do with being a hero, it just means your a strong person. A bad guy can and usually is, also strong.

It's made very clear. So the audience is justified in expecting the actions of the protagonist (possibly) to match up with themes of the story and justified in being angry when they don't.

When it comes to roleplaying games, the reverse is actually the case most of the time. The audience is justified in expecting the tone of their characters to match the actions they choose. And become angry with the story when one outcome or one path is forced upon everyone in a one size fits all narrative. That is the consequence in giving the player options, they don't always pick the option you want for the narrative to go the way you want it to.

[David7204]

If the player's choices matter, then yes it does. Because they can choose to be good.

The reverse is not true at all. Your post is a bit unclear, but the tone of the story is not obligated to follow the choices of the player at all, and players are sure as hell not justified in expecting it too. That would just be silly. BioWare games don't become glittery meadows of sunshine just because the player choose idealistic choices.

Modifié par David7204, 23 novembre 2013 - 12:19 .

[Allan Schumacher]

It's completely relevant. I'm not going to compromise a very useful definition for the .0001% of fan fiction that might not be in tune with it and is given no attention in any case.

Where are you getting your definition from?

And "patronizing and condescending"? My post was in response to someone outright saying that my words were a result from being sheltered from fiction.

The joys of not quoting your posts. Your response came immediately after one that didn't say that.  Your posting history also comes into question.

And given your strange definition of the term story, and the exceptional aspects they require, questioning your exposure to fiction may not be an unfair question.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 23 novembre 2013 - 12:21 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

David7204 wrote...

It's completely relevant. I'm not going to compromise a very useful definition for the .0001% of fan fiction that might not be in tune with it and is given no attention in any case.

You really should read more books I suggest Mao II by DeLillo, might give you a fresh perspective.

As for conflict, it has everything to do with what a story is.

Conflict has everything to do with moving a plot forwad, usually but not always. The actual story is another matter.

And "patronizing and condescending"? My post was in response to someone
outright saying that my words were a result from being sheltered from
fiction.

Your staunch opposition to anything that violates your very rigid preference in writing style certainly leaves that impression to be honest.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 23 novembre 2013 - 12:23 .

[The Flying Grey Warden]

David7204 wrote...

If the player's choices matter, then yes it does. Because they can choose to be good.

The reverse is not true at all. Your post is a bit unclear, but the tone of the story is not obligated to follow the choices of the player at all, and players are sure as hell not justified in expecting it too. That would just be silly. BioWare games don't become glittery meadows of sunshine just because the player choose idealistic choices.

So basically you want anyone who doesn't choose to be good to be forced to be good, or they lose. That is a horrible attitude for a role playing game to take.

"Hey, in this game you get to choose what happens"
"Awesome, so I can choose to be like walter white?"
"Nope. You can be hank or skyler."
"But I want to-"
"It doesn't matter what you want. Now choose the right option or else."

[David7204]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Where are you getting your definition from?

Do you mean a source of some sort?

It comes from reason. Everyone agrees a story must including an accounting of events. But that alone has nothing meaningful inherent to it. My definition gives it inherent meaning and is inclusive of 99.999% of your definition anyway. When I talk about the importance and power of stories, I don't want collections of meaningless events included in that catagory. 

Modifié par David7204, 23 novembre 2013 - 12:40 .

[David7204]

Slice of life stories have conflict same as any other.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

David7204 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Where are you getting your definition from?

Do you mean a source of some sort?

It comes from reason. Everyone agrees a story must including an accounting of events. But that alone has nothing meaningful inherent to it. My definition gives it inherent meaning and is inclusive of 99.999% of your definition anyway. When I talk about the importance of stories, I don't want collections of meaningless events included in that catagory. 

If you want it as a personal definition that's fine. But trying to push it as a legitimate definition for everyone is the reason everyone doesn't agree with you david.

I hope you can understand that.