243 réponses à ce sujet

[Hellion Rex]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@David:
Taken from Wikipedia, which took it from the Oxford English Dictionary:

A narrative (or story) is any account of connected events, presented to a reader or listener in a sequence of written or spoken words, or in a sequence of (moving) pictures.

By that definition, neither conflict nor extraordinary events or people are required. Case closed. If anyone contests this definition, they'd better give a good reason why they think they know better than the Oxford English Dictionary, which I'm sure has had its entries debated in much more depth than we could ever hope to achieve here. Why isn't the definition narrower? I don't know the minds of the people who wrote it, but as I see it, definitions of everyday terms have to be descriptive, and any further condition placed in the definition would've excluded things commonly regarded as stories.

That most of us here prefer stories with conflict and exceptional events might be true, but it is beside the point. I find The Sims excessively boring, still millions of other people don't. 

I can certainly back Ieldra up here. I have access to the actual OED myself, and the definition is spot on.

Modifié par eluvianix, 23 novembre 2013 - 08:21 .

[Boycott Bioware]

J4N3_M3 wrote...
Revan is one of my favorite characters in the Star Wars universe, and while I - personally - have a big problem of canon revan being lightside male marrying bastila - I certainly enjoyed his story throughout KOTOR and later on in parts in TOR and in the novels.

And I agree that Anakin did fullfill the prophecy, and bring balance to the Force. The real villain was Darth Sidious. I must disagree on Anakin being the real hero of the story. Him being the hero would imply that he had planned on going to the Dark Side from the beginning which he hadn't. I do see Luke and the rebel alliance as the true heros. They fought to destroy the Empire at high cost, e.g. Alderaan.

For me, Anakin is the hero of the whole story, Luke is just plot diversion supporting the main hero to fulfill his destiny.

A hero in Star Wars is not stereotypical hero, because the story is heavily philosophical...so the hero in Star wars is philosophical hero, not a common hero

Luke in other hand, is the last hope of the Jedi, there are no Jedi any more, even that, he himself didn't follow the Jedi code as the whole and not following what his dead masters told him to, he just follow what he think is right. He cannot kill Anakin because Anakin is his father, he also cannot face Darth Sidious because he's weak, he's not a hero at all.

It is because of we being introduced with episode 4 to 6 first make most of us think Luke is the hero...but the whole story is not about him at all

And yes, i have a big problem with "canon" male Revan too...my cannon Revan is a woman, light side, marrying Carth

Modifié par Qistina, 23 novembre 2013 - 08:38 .

[Silfren]

Qistina wrote...

J4N3_M3 wrote...
Revan is one of my favorite characters in the Star Wars universe, and while I - personally - have a big problem of canon revan being lightside male marrying bastila - I certainly enjoyed his story throughout KOTOR and later on in parts in TOR and in the novels.

And I agree that Anakin did fullfill the prophecy, and bring balance to the Force. The real villain was Darth Sidious. I must disagree on Anakin being the real hero of the story. Him being the hero would imply that he had planned on going to the Dark Side from the beginning which he hadn't. I do see Luke and the rebel alliance as the true heros. They fought to destroy the Empire at high cost, e.g. Alderaan.

For me, Anakin is the hero of the whole story, Luke is just plot diversion supporting the main hero to fulfill his destiny.

A hero in Star Wars is not stereotypical hero, because the story is heavily philosophical...so the hero in Star wars is philosophical hero, not a common hero

Luke in other hand, is the last hope of the Jedi, there are no Jedi any more, even that, he himself didn't follow the Jedi code as the whole and not following what his dead masters told him to, he just follow what he think is right. He cannot kill Anakin because Anakin is his father, he also cannot face Darth Sidious because he's weak, he's not a hero at all.

It is because of we being introduced with episode 4 to 5 first make most of us think Luke is the hero...but the whole story is not about him at all

And yes, i have a big problem with "canon" male Revan too...my cannon Revan is a woman, light side, marrying Carth

Thread drift happens, of course, but since this topic already got closed once, do you think you could try to keep the posts relevant to the topic instead of just going off into an unrelated Star Wars discussion?

[Ieldra]

I think this might be relevant here.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 23 novembre 2013 - 08:49 .

[Hellion Rex]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I think this might be relevant here.

Why must you torment us like that?

[TeamLexana]

MasterScribe wrote...

TeamLexana wrote...

MasterScribe wrote...

TeamLexana wrote...

Well there is The Sims 1, 2, and 3 with all their expansions and console versions....

I maaay have dabbled in them when I was younger.. maybe... I'll never tell! 

Reveal your secrets to me.

It's imperative for the survival of the planet. 

NEVER! 

Playing hard to get, hmmm?

Fine, I shall destroy your planet. 

Great. Now we are all ghosts. And I am STILL not gonna tell ya! Muwhahahaha. 

[Boycott Bioware]

Silfren wrote...
Thread drift happens, of course, but since this topic already got closed once, do you think you could try to keep the posts relevant to the topic instead of just going off into an unrelated Star Wars discussion?

The thread being closed because of pic spamming


And my points related to the topic and the topic that closed

Allan Schumacher wrote...

why Allan why??

I closed the last one because of inane picture spam and couldn't be bothered to try to clean it up.

Modifié par Qistina, 23 novembre 2013 - 09:21 .

[Boycott Bioware]

The point is, in DA:O and DA2 there is to much of typical heroism being put to the main character, while the same time the writer try to give grey value, it failed, because both characters have no philosophy, especially DA2 Hawke

So, "saving the world" may contradict with the hero type the writer want to make...the experiment failed in DA2 where Hawke being feed with too much insane heroism but the writer try to give melancholic value to Hawke in the end making Hawke a failed hero

Not like Darth Vader...his fall to Dark Side is philosophical, he have his stand, his view on things, something he fight for...in the end, he realize his mistakes and continue fulfilling his destiny as The Chosen One/Messiah...it just that episode 4 to 6 Gorge Lucas divert the plot showing Luke instead of maintaining Anakin for the whole story

Modifié par Qistina, 23 novembre 2013 - 09:29 .

[Ravensword]

Qistina wrote...

The point is, in DA:O and DA2 there is to much of typical heroism being put to the main character, while the same time the writer try to give grey value, it failed, because both characters have no philosophy, especially DA2 Hawke

So, "saving the world" may contradict with the hero type the writer want to make...the experiment failed in DA2 where Hawke being feed with too much insane heroism but the writer try to give melancholic value to Hawke in the end making Hawke a failed hero

Not like Darth Vader...his fall to Dark Side is philosophical, he have his stand, his view on things, something he fight for...in the end, he realize his mistakes and continue fulfilling his destiny as the Chosen One...it just that episode 4 to 6 Gorge Lucas divert the plot showing Luke instead of maintaining Anakin for the whole story

Heroism, eh? A user on here can give you a peculiar take on heroism.

[Boycott Bioware]

Heroism, eh? A user on here can give you a peculiar take on heroism.

yes, heroism, insane heroism...look at Hawke...

i. beating the ogre, there's even exaggeration of that from Varric
ii. beating the Qunari - either duel, royal rumble or diplomatically
iii. beating the whole army of Templar and their super crazy leader
iv. beating the whole Circle Mages with their demons and abominations
v. clean up Kirkwal from thousands of bandits, crazy mages and what not
vi. from nobody, becoming a noble and no one can touch him/her

Edit : hawke being propagated as the Champion even before everything, in trailer

The premise of DA2 is heroism of Hawke and insanely exaggerated, but the writer trying to make Hawke a melancholic one in which against the premise it self. In the end, Hawke is fall to nothing...failed in everything...

While in DA:O, the heroism of the Warden is maintained from beginning to end, it is not a very good story, it cliche and overused, but for the sake of story enjoyment, DA:O is successful, because the premise not contradicting itself

The warden is The HERO of Ferelden in anyway

Modifié par Qistina, 23 novembre 2013 - 09:39 .

[David7204]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@David:
Taken from Wikipedia, which took it from the Oxford English Dictionary:

"A narrative (or story) is any account of connected events, presented to a reader or listener in a sequence of written or spoken words, or in a sequence of (moving) pictures."

By that definition, neither conflict nor extraordinary events or people are required. Case closed. If anyone contests this definition, they'd better give a good reason why they think they know better than the Oxford English Dictionary, which I'm sure has had its entries debated in much more depth than we could ever hope to achieve here. Why isn't the definition narrower? I don't know the minds of the people who wrote it, but as I see it, definitions of everyday terms have to be descriptive, and any further condition placed in the definition would've excluded things commonly regarded as stories.

That most of us here prefer stories with conflict and exceptional events might be true, but it is beside the point. I find The Sims excessively boring, still millions of other people don't. 

Gosh, if 'anyone' contests this definition, huh? Nice and passive aggressive.

It's a dictionary. It's meant to give a short and simple description anyone can understand, not delve any deeper. I could probably find dozens of words in the exact same mold.

What things 'commonly regarded as stories' does my definition exclude, exactly?

[TheKomandorShepard]

Qistina wrote...

Heroism, eh? A user on here can give you a peculiar take on heroism.

yes, heroism, insane heroism...look at Hawke...

i. beating the ogre, there's even exaggeration of that from Varric
ii. beating the Qunari - either duel, royal rumble or diplomatically
iii. beating the whole army of Templar and their super crazy leader
iv. beating the whole Circle Mages with their demons and abominations
v. clean up Kirkwal from thousands of bandits, crazy mages and what not
vi. from nobody, becoming a noble and no one can touch him/her

Edit : hawke being propagated as the Champion even before everything, in trailer

The premise of DA2 is heroism of Hawke and insanely exaggerated, but the writer trying to make Hawke a melancholic one in which against the premise it self. In the end, Hawke is fall to nothing...failed in everything...

While in DA:O, the heroism of the Warden is maintained from beginning to end, it is not a very good story, it cliche and overused, but for the sake of story enjoyment, DA:O is successful, because the premise not contradicting itself

The warden is The HERO of Ferelden in anyway

Hawke is rather bulit on being at worst anti-hero and being helping others even if we don't have benefit it that.

But warden wasn't hero (well we are talking term hero in fiction?) well he could be be don't have to practically that folk call you hero doesn't mean that you are hero warden can be super pri*** who don't care about anyone and go into that teritory .

[GreyLycanTrope]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I think this might be relevant here.

Love it.

[hangmans tree]

Silfren wrote...
Count me among those who don't understand what you're asking for.  Do you want Inquisition to be a retelling of Origins, or something?  Or do you just want them to axe Inquisition and literally reboot DA:O?

My god, nother case.
No, I was pointing out how we can/should/must escape the hero-saves-the-world drama.

I HOPE DAI deviates from the beaten path. Not being LABELED as hero in the gameworld and doing otherwise heroic stuff doesnt rule out each other. You as a player would KNOW what your character did was to save the Wardens/Hawkes ass on many occasions without him/her even realising it. You would be a grey eminence, making the win possible. For the sake of the story lets say Flemeth appears by your broken body telling you how splendid job you did, that you saved countlesss lives and made tommorow and future possible... even that no one will ever know of your journey and sacrefices.

What's so difficult to understand the concept? The story gets much darker in a way in this case, sure, no fanfares, but so what? Wouldn't it be a great story non the less?
I'm not asking for this particular story to be made. I dnont want DAO retold. I want DAI to be a great story without relying ona HEROIC crutch. It MAY be heroic,as long it doesnt do ONLY that. Otherwise, for me, its a boredom made flesh.

[Sylvius the Mad]

David7204 wrote...

It's a dictionary. It's meant to give a short and simple description anyone can understand, not delve any deeper.

If that's all it does, it's a shoddy dictionary.

[Wissenschaft]

Ah, theres plenty of stories thats are "boring" because of how ordinary everything is within.. Try reading some classics, like Moby Dick, which happens to spend the vast majority of its pages describing in painful detail life on a whaling ship and the scenery involved, not the captains obession with a whale. I found it a terribly boring read because of that but during its time it served the purpose of allowing people to learn about the life of a sailor when they otherwise might not know anything about it.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

David7204 wrote...

It's a dictionary. It's meant to give a short and simple description anyone can understand, not delve any deeper.

If that's all it does, it's a shoddy dictionary.

I don't know what Dictionary your reading but a gerneral dictionary just gives a short description. After all, theres lots of words to cover.

Modifié par Wissenschaft, 24 novembre 2013 - 05:19 .

[Siegdrifa]

David7204 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@David:
Taken from Wikipedia, which took it from the Oxford English Dictionary:

"A narrative (or story) is any account of connected events, presented to a reader or listener in a sequence of written or spoken words, or in a sequence of (moving) pictures."

By that definition, neither conflict nor extraordinary events or people are required. Case closed. If anyone contests this definition, they'd better give a good reason why they think they know better than the Oxford English Dictionary, which I'm sure has had its entries debated in much more depth than we could ever hope to achieve here. Why isn't the definition narrower? I don't know the minds of the people who wrote it, but as I see it, definitions of everyday terms have to be descriptive, and any further condition placed in the definition would've excluded things commonly regarded as stories.

That most of us here prefer stories with conflict and exceptional events might be true, but it is beside the point. I find The Sims excessively boring, still millions of other people don't. 

Gosh, if 'anyone' contests this definition, huh? Nice and passive aggressive.

It's a dictionary. It's meant to give a short and simple description anyone can understand, not delve any deeper. I could probably find dozens of words in the exact same mold.

What things 'commonly regarded as stories' does my definition exclude, exactly?

I think you are totaly underestimating the synthetic process to attache the definition to his primary concept (his essence)... which is much more complicate and carry more potential than a personnal definition.

This is like making a computer file through winzip, while you reduce the weight of the file, you loose nothing of his potential if you devlop it (unzip) again.

From the moment you express things like "conflict" in a story for his definition, you are already shaping it in one way and loosing his essence and his full potential (here, the potential for a story to not carry "conflict" matters).

[Allan Schumacher]

David7204 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Where are you getting your definition from?

Do you mean a source of some sort?

It comes from reason. Everyone agrees a story must including an accounting of events. But that alone has nothing meaningful inherent to it. My definition gives it inherent meaning and is inclusive of 99.999% of your definition anyway. When I talk about the importance and power of stories, I don't want collections of meaningless events included in that catagory. 

First, reason/logic is often incorrect.  It's fine that you have made a logical deduction, but when you state something is "by definition" your world view, you're immediately going to come across as antagonistic towards those that disagree with the perspective.

I have heard (and told) plenty of stories that include nothing extraordinary.  I'd actually say that most stories I hear are recounts of events that don't have something extraordinary happen in them (and I am skeptical that they have extraordinary thoughts associated with them).


If you're referring to the idea of marketing stories for the purpose of selling, mass market appeal, and whatnot, then I can sort of see where you're coming from (though I disagree with the assessment that it requires anything extraordinary).  It mostly just comes across as "what David likes" as opposed to any generalized statement, but comes across communicated much more in a "this is the way reality is."  As such, people will be put on the defensive because it challenges their own perceptions in ways that they disagree with.

In this case, a boring story is not what someone is going to look for most of the time, because few people actively seek out (and pay money for!) things that bore them.  Though what people consider boring is very personal, and against I'd still argue that nothing extraordinary is required in those cases.

[kinderschlager]

well.....this got off topic fast

*allan arguing over what is and isn't a story didn't help)

Modifié par kinderschlager, 24 novembre 2013 - 10:35 .

[standardpack]

kinderschlager wrote...

well.....this got off topic fast

*allan arguing over what is and isn't a story didn't help)

Agreed.  In the wise words of Varric

[Plaintiff]

Does Varric have anything to say about resurrecting threads that have been dead for days?

[Lotion Soronarr]

It's a save the wrold story! - Boring! Everyone does that. I'm tired of beign a super hero.

Ok, it's a small-scale perosnal story. - Boring! I want epicness. I want to shape the world to my liking!

It's a lose-lose scenario.

[InvincibleHero]

So you want to act behind the scenes doing random stuff that would be hard to bind in an overarching narrative? Why would you know to repair a bridge in some backwater village because the band of heroes needs to go through there? The game is always going to be centered around your pc. Unless I totally misread your op because it is hard to fathom what exactly your point is.

or do you desire to be the anti-hero? The villain that only helps because he wants to save his own bacon and maybe get more powerful with some pretty baubles in his possession?

Modifié par InvincibleHero, 28 novembre 2013 - 09:46 .

[Ieldra]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
It's a save the wrold story! - Boring! Everyone does that. I'm tired of beign a super hero.

Ok, it's a small-scale perosnal story. - Boring! I want epicness. I want to shape the world to my liking!

It's a lose-lose scenario.

It was a win/win scenario for me. I liked the stories of both DAO and DA2. If I prefer DAO, the epicness does play a part - I like varied landscapes and a big sprawling world - but it's mostly unrelated to story. Hawke's story was a refreshing change, even though the way it was realized left a few important things to be desired - more variation in location and visual style among them.   

[Lebanese Dude]

Ieldra2 wrote...
It was a win/win scenario for me. I liked the stories of both DAO and DA2. If I prefer DAO, the epicness does play a part - I like varied landscapes and a big sprawling world - but it's mostly unrelated to story. Hawke's story was a refreshing change, even though the way it was realized left a few important things to be desired - more variation in location and visual style among them.   

Was I the only DA2 player that really didn't mind the location recycling?

The Kirkwall day/night locations made perfect sense to me. I really never paid attention to the caves either, because it was never about exploration and the beauty of the environment, but the progression of the story.

Granted, it started to get a little too familiar after multiple playthroughs, but that's going to happen regardless of replaying the game or not...

It's overblown really.