243 réponses à ce sujet

[David Gaider]

Almost anything is possible with a narrative.

When it comes to a narrative for a game, it's a little different. Just because you can think of something that qualifies as a story, that does not mean it would necessarily make for a good game. Games, particularly the sort that we make, require interactivity and agency.

Does that mean a "save the world" scenario is required? Hardly. Even so, it would take a special kind of jaded to opine that heroic tales couldn't possibly be presented in an interesting manner. There were people who made the same kind of posts prior to DAO coming out ("What? ANOTHER save-the-world-from-evil tale?") , and I grew tired of trying to explain the differences between what they were assuming and what we were actually doing, or all the possibilities that exist within one admittedly enormous category.

So if one prefers to simplify: yes, it's a heroic tale. Yes, saving the world (in some fashion) is on the table. No, we don't "always" do this, as we didn't do it in DA2, but this story was what DA2 was always meant to lead into. And if you can't imagine any way that a heroic tale could be done in a manner interesting or satisfying to you, that's fine. Come back when we do a concept that more appeals to your sensibilities.

[Lebanese Dude]

David Gaider wrote...
So if one prefers to simplify: yes, it's a heroic tale. Yes, saving the world (in some fashion) is on the table. No, we don't "always" do this, as we didn't do it in DA2, but this story was what DA2 was always meant to lead into. And if you can't imagine any way that a heroic tale could be done in a manner interesting or satisfying to you, that's fine. Come back when we do a concept that more appeals to your sensibilities.

Weren't there many complaints that DA2 did NOT involve Hawke saving the world, and thus was deemed an "inferior" narrative for that reason alone?

Ironic really lol

[HiroVoid]

Lebdood wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
So if one prefers to simplify: yes, it's a heroic tale. Yes, saving the world (in some fashion) is on the table. No, we don't "always" do this, as we didn't do it in DA2, but this story was what DA2 was always meant to lead into. And if you can't imagine any way that a heroic tale could be done in a manner interesting or satisfying to you, that's fine. Come back when we do a concept that more appeals to your sensibilities.

Weren't there many complaints that DA2 did NOT involve Hawke saving the world, and thus was deemed an "inferior" narrative for that reason alone?

Ironic really lol

Not really ironic.  When you make games that are bought by millions of people, you're going to get many, many different opinions.  It would be hypocritical if someone complained about that for DAO and then complained about DAII for not being about saving the world, but I haven't seen any examples brought up.

[Maria Caliban]

I think it's important to draw a distinction between 'stories you can tell in games' and 'stories you can tell in games that need to sell enough copies to support hundreds of employees.'

The Stanley Parable, Gone Home, and Papers Please... are all examples of interesting, non-traditional game stories. They're all also made by small development teams.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 28 novembre 2013 - 04:38 .

[David Gaider]

Maria Caliban wrote...
I think it's important to draw a distinction between 'stories you can tell in games' and 'stories you can tell in games that need to sell enough copies to support hundreds of employees.'

The Stanley Parable, Gone Home, and Papers Please... are all examples of interesting, non-traditional game stories. They're all also made by small development teams.

Sure. I didn't suggest that all games required heroic stories--you can indeed fit stories within games that do some very non-traditional things. It does not follow, however, that just because something qualifies as a "story" that it would work within a game--which is where the conversation here seemed to be heading. Even the games you mention still had stories that required the player to be able to do something. The Stanley Parable, in particular, is the best example of that as its entire story is about game stories and agency.

Talking about what makes for a commercial story and what has more mass appeal--that's a different topic, if you ask me. The heroic tale has broader appeal, just as the fantasy genre does (something that has proven true time and time again, even if some jaded folks prioritize novelty and despair at the familiar), but if that's the sole reason to do it that would be pretty soulless. Currently, this story is what it is because that's what we wanted to write since DAO ended. If someone prefers to believe otherwise, they probably want DA to be a series about something it's not actually about.

[Plaintiff]

Clearly the only solution is to make their next Dragon Age game a kafkaesque narrative where players try to navigate the increasingly bizarre bureaucracy of Orlais in order to file a request for a travel permit.

[David7204]

I'm pleased to see heroism acknowledged in a manner befitting it.

[Afro_Explosion]

Plaintiff wrote...

Clearly the only solution is to make their next Dragon Age game a kafkaesque narrative where players try to navigate the increasingly bizarre bureaucracy of Orlais in order to file a request for a travel permit.

Then you as an old man you die just as you get to the front of the line

Modifié par mx_keep13, 28 novembre 2013 - 05:12 .

[HiroVoid]

mx_keep13 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Clearly the only solution is to make their next Dragon Age game a kafkaesque narrative where players try to navigate the increasingly bizarre bureaucracy of Orlais in order to file a request for a travel permit.

Then you as an old man you die just as you get to the front of the line

So kinda like Harvest Moon except replace all that with farming?

[AresKeith]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Sort of an aside here...

Now that I think about it, DA2 was a great coming of age story about a commoner who becomes wealthy. It's actually pretty good when you think about it. Props to the DA team. They are more versatile than people give 'em credit for.

I liked the idea behind Hawke's story regardless of how I felt about the game

[Dave of Canada]

Dragon Age 2 had so much potential, it could've been so much more. It's a tad bit disappointing that everyone blames the story / framed narrative for the game/implementation. I think I mentioned in this thread that it was too ambitious for the resources and time allocated to it, it bears repeating.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I'm alright with saving the world, but why do I have to be a 'hero' when I'm doing it?

I don't believe in heroism in the traditional sense. I want to play a 'hero' who's an ****, a legitimate jerk, a sociopath, a guy who's pretty much a bad guy in everything but name.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 28 novembre 2013 - 05:37 .

[AresKeith]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Dragon Age 2 had so much potential, it could've been so much more. It's a tad bit disappointing that everyone blames the story / framed narrative for the game/implementation. I think I mentioned in this thread that it was too ambitious for the resources and time allocated to it, it bears repeating.

Tbh, the time skips could've been done better too

It was kinda immersion-breaking when npcs talked you liked they was friends

[David7204]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I'm alright with saving the world, but why do I have to be a 'hero' when I'm doing it?

I don't believe in heroism in the traditional sense. I want to play a 'hero' who's an ****, a legitimate jerk, a sociopath, a guy who's pretty much a bad guy in everything but name.

Then perhaps you should avoid fiction that goes out of it's way to use heroic themes and imagery? You don't 'have' to do anything. If I don't enjoy a certain type of story, I don't devote time to such stories.

Modifié par David7204, 28 novembre 2013 - 05:45 .

[Br3admax]

David7204 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I'm alright with saving the world, but why do I have to be a 'hero' when I'm doing it?

I don't believe in heroism in the traditional sense. I want to play a 'hero' who's an ****, a legitimate jerk, a sociopath, a guy who's pretty much a bad guy in everything but name.

Then perhaps you should avoid fiction that goes out of it's way to use heroic themes and imagery? You don't 'have' to do anything. If I don't enjoy a certain type of story, I don't devote time ot them.

Have you met the Murder Knife, David? Please tell me what is so heroic about it? Also, DA is not a heroic themed story, so I'm not sure that I get the point to what you are saying. 

[AresKeith]

David7204 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I'm alright with saving the world, but why do I have to be a 'hero' when I'm doing it?

I don't believe in heroism in the traditional sense. I want to play a 'hero' who's an ****, a legitimate jerk, a sociopath, a guy who's pretty much a bad guy in everything but name.

Then perhaps you should avoid fiction that goes out of it's way to use heroic themes and imagery? You don't 'have' to do anything. If I don't enjoy a certain type of story, I don't devote time to such stories.

David you have been told many times, even by a Bioware to don't make claims like this with a game you have no knowledge of

[Medhia Nox]

I enjoyed DA2 - until I reviled the game. No, I'm not talking in hyperbole - it is the worst game story I've ever experienced - for me, not for everyone.

But - it was only two parts (one major, one minor) that made me feel that way.

- Anders (the major)
- Hawke's mother (the minor)

My hatred of the DA2 storyline has nothing to do with the simpler story - nor the framed narrative.

If DA2 had been how a young refugee from Ferelden made a home for himself in a new city that culminated in him becoming a notable "X" within the confines of Kirkwall without magic blasts, and snarling mega-saurus Templar Super Saiyans - I'd have been fine.

If DA2 had ended with the main character heading to his modest home with a large pig slung over his shoulder for a holiday feast with family and friends he spent X amount of hours making, keeping and growing with in the confines of the game I'd have thought that was (potentially) great.

And sure - maybe with the hint/promise of encouraging your children to, someday, take on the role of heroes.

A story about how heroes are made.

I would have been perfectly happy without a single shred of "awesome amazo!"

My complaints about DA2 are absolutely NOT about it's simpler aspirations.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 28 novembre 2013 - 05:52 .

[Dave of Canada]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I'm alright with saving the world, but why do I have to be a 'hero' when I'm doing it?

I don't believe in heroism in the traditional sense. I want to play a 'hero' who's an ****, a legitimate jerk, a sociopath, a guy who's pretty much a bad guy in everything but name.

I'd love to see where we can take the Inquisition considering we're supposedly in charge of it, maybe we can turn it into something similar to real-world Inquisitors and burn all heretics or those suspected of heresy against the Maker and his betrothed.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 28 novembre 2013 - 05:51 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Dave of Canada: I agree, even if mine wouldn't become that.

Mine is going to be more like the Knight's Hospitaller in theme (if I can).

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 28 novembre 2013 - 05:53 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I'm alright with saving the world, but why do I have to be a 'hero' when I'm doing it?

I don't believe in heroism in the traditional sense. I want to play a 'hero' who's an ****, a legitimate jerk, a sociopath, a guy who's pretty much a bad guy in everything but name.

Then perhaps you should avoid fiction that goes out of it's way to use heroic themes and imagery? You don't 'have' to do anything. If I don't enjoy a certain type of story, I don't devote time to such stories.

So only a heroic hero of heroicness can save the world in your mind? No one who's less than your idea of the paragon of justice and meaningfullness is allowed to have a positive impact?

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 28 novembre 2013 - 05:56 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Dave of Canada wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I'm alright with saving the world, but why do I have to be a 'hero' when I'm doing it?

I don't believe in heroism in the traditional sense. I want to play a 'hero' who's an ****, a legitimate jerk, a sociopath, a guy who's pretty much a bad guy in everything but name.

I'd love to see where we can take the Inquisition considering we're supposedly in charge of it, maybe we can turn it into something similar to real-world Inquisitors and burn all heretics or those suspected of heresy against the Maker and his betrothed.

I'm going to slaughter the mages. And the Chantry. And the Elves.

[David7204]

In my mind, you have no justification for being surprised or upset at encountering heroism in a game with overwhelmingly obvious heroic themes and tones.