62 réponses à ce sujet

[Rotward]

The reapers did enter a completely unprepared galaxy devoid of the genophage, and the geth were all turned to the reapers side. Some Shepards then developed the cure and freed the geth, but others sabotage the cure and kill the geth.

Actually, now that I think about it, Liara would still be stuck in that bubble without shepard.
That said, without Liara the crucible plans are never found, nor is there a capsule, so I suppose shepard was necessary. The most important thing he or she did was recruit the new shadowbroker, though.

[Rasofe]

Right. "Completely" unprepared.
If it were up to me playing badly (not securing the alliance at all as well as failing to recruit both sides in Quarian-Geth conflict, trusting the Rachni breeder) would just result in the crucible not working and refuse being defaulted, but it wasn't up to me, was it.
Anyway, it's not a deus ex machina. It's a McGuffin - a device no one knows how it will work and is never explained but somehow contrivedly is used by the main protagonist to solve the central conflict.
It's seriously enough for Shepard to be necessary to flick the switch for it not to be a deus ex machina.

[Rotward]

Rasofe wrote...

Right. "Completely" unprepared.
If it were up to me playing badly (not securing the alliance at all as well as failing to recruit both sides in Quarian-Geth conflict, trusting the Rachni breeder) would just result in the crucible not working and refuse being defaulted, but it wasn't up to me, was it.
Anyway, it's not a deus ex machina. It's a McGuffin - a device no one knows how it will work and is never explained but somehow contrivedly is used by the main protagonist to solve the central conflict.
It's seriously enough for Shepard to be necessary to flick the switch for it not to be a deus ex machina.

That's just inaccurate.

Absolutely no preperations were made between the start of me1 and the start of me3 to prepare for the reapers. The only people who even believed they were coming were cerberus, who weakened the resistance, and shepards crew.

Modifié par Rotward, 30 novembre 2013 - 08:31 .

[SwobyJ]

STG. They just didn't have the time to expand their prep.

[Rasofe]

It's not inaccurate. "Absolutely unprepared" is.
Hyperbole's do not a good discussion make, my friend.

Modifié par Rasofe, 30 novembre 2013 - 08:51 .

[Rotward]

Rasofe wrote...

It's not inaccurate. "Absolutely unprepared" is.

What preparations are you refering to. The army they didn't mobalize? The addition communication centers they didn't build? Perhaps the general warnings they didn't provide? Maybe the studies on reaper tech they failed to conduct. The resources they never stockpiled. 

Right, totally prepared. 

[Rasofe]

Look, don't pretend you didn't play the same game as me. I get that you're pissed, but this isn't working.
The Alliance contacted Liara to search through the Prothen Archives to find the Crucible. They had regrouped their fleets to protect Earth before the invasion, even though it was a defeat. Shepard had delayed the takeover of the Citadel which would've left the galaxy in immediate turmoil. They had initiated the Leviathan project. Shepard even gave them an additional 6 months with the destruction of the Alpha Relay. If none of this was done, the cycle would have gone the way of the Protheans, or even worse.

Absolutely unprepared doesn't mean insufficiently prepared. Absolutely means absolutely absolutely. Given that Shepard's cycle managed to build the Crucible at all - it didn't just pop out of the archives finished - and retained a formidable fleet to deliver it to Earth, the preparations weren't a complete failure.

[Rotward]

Rasofe wrote...

Look, don't pretend you didn't play the same game as me. I get that you're pissed, but this isn't working.
The Alliance contacted Liara to search through the Prothen Archives to find the Crucible. They had regrouped their fleets to protect Earth before the invasion, even though it was a defeat. Shepard had delayed the takeover of the Citadel which would've left the galaxy in immediate turmoil. They had initiated the Leviathan project. Shepard even gave them an additional 6 months with the destruction of the Alpha Relay. If none of this was done, the cycle would have gone the way of the Protheans, or even worse.

Absolutely unprepared doesn't mean insufficiently prepared. Absolutely means absolutely absolutely. Given that Shepard's cycle managed to build the Crucible at all - it didn't just pop out of the archives finished - and retained a formidable fleet to deliver it to Earth, the preparations weren't a complete failure.

They regrouped their fleets? I thought they did that after the listening post was hit. Where else would the fleets even be, other than earth space?

Everything else was done by shepard and his or her crew, but if we're counting that, then yes they prepared; kind of like bringing a paper towel to a thunderstorm. I'm not counting shepard & co, otherwise the council's been preparing since me1. 

I'm not mad at you, by the way. 

Modifié par Rotward, 30 novembre 2013 - 10:02 .

[Rasofe]

Wait, that doesn't even make sense.
It's a story about Shepard and his crew. You can't just discount their contributions to the global conflict of the story, which is what turned the scales enough to even be able to unite the galaxy as well as build and deliver the Crucible. The main characters aren't just observers of the setting, you know.

[Rotward]

Rasofe wrote...

Wait, that doesn't even make sense.
It's a story about Shepard and his crew. You can't just discount their contributions to the global conflict of the story, which is what turned the scales enough to even be able to unite the galaxy as well as build and deliver the Crucible. The main characters aren't just observers of the setting, you know.

I'm just not attributing their preparations to the council or alliance. The council and the alliance (well, udina) both denounced and inhibited shepard. Normandy crew were prepared for the reapers.  

[Rasofe]

Well, no argument there, but how does that make the Crucible a deus ex machina?

[Rotward]

Rasofe wrote...

Well, no argument there, but how does that make the Crucible a deus ex machina?

It doesn't by itself, I was just looking for even ground on galactic preparedness. What I'm trying to say is that, at the end of me2, we really didn't have a defense against the reapers. The reason I see the crucible as a deus ex machina is because it's discovered after the final conflict begins. Not only that, but it's not our plan, it's directions handed down to us by the 'superior' species of last cycle. 

I've have significant exposure to the concept of deus ex machina, but not MacGuffin, so I went  and reviewed it. I can definitely see where you're coming from there, especially when viewing me3 by itself. 

I'm looking at the whole series though. The crucible would be more believable had it been introduced sooner. On Ilos, Vigil warned us about the reapers. It told us how the reapers defeated the protheans, and explain the prothean's sabotage. Yet  Vigil failed to mention a superweapon they'd been building? If Shepard failed to stop Saren, knowing about the Crucible would have been vital, but no such luck. In me2 we spend all our time fighting the collectors, so another game goes by without a plan of defense against the reapers. 

Then me3 hits, and we're already in confilct with reaper forces. So the writers threw in a solution from the protheans, who also turn out to be the source of Asari superiority. We then spend the whole game working on what should have been done in me2 - alliances. The crucible is finished in the background, away from us, away from Shepard. 

What really gets me, though, is the catalyst. We dock the crucible, and nothing happens. Shepard's bleeding out unconcious, Anderson and TIM are dead, the crucible failed. Then the closest thing we encounter to a god shines a light down on shepard, and literally hands him victory. Two of the endings are negative for the catalyst, but he allows shepard to make those choices. Furthermore, synthesis is a completly new option, that has no basis in the prior story. It's a solution that makes everyone, including the villians, happy with the exception of Shepard. 

I get the impression that protheans are a cure-all for the galaxy's woes, and the catalyst was only there to tie up the numerouse loose ends. 

Modifié par Rotward, 07 décembre 2013 - 12:18 .

[Podge 90]

Could you not interpret the Crucible as the McGuffin and the Catalyst as the deus ex machina?

'We're going to build this thing even though we have no idea what it is/does, then something is going to pop up and tell us how to solve everything'.

I can't be the only one wanting a "crap, a pop-up" option on the dialogue wheel when the Catalyst appears, like on Noveria to Mira. The Catalyst does, essentially, pop out of nowhere.

I've enjoyed reading this thread; many good points brought up on both sides.