197 réponses à ce sujet

[ImaginaryMatter]

Why are we applying outside physics to Mass Effect? With our physics the mass effect would never work, for example, reducing a ships mass to near 0 will never result in FTL travel. The Mass Effect universe operates under a different set of physical laws. For all we know Newtonian mechanics work differently.

Modifié par ImaginaryMatter, 23 novembre 2013 - 08:30 .

[Erez Kristal]

Jinx1720 wrote...

Your argument does not make a lot of sense evidencewise. You claim that the fact that Shepard's armor parts survived proves his/her speed was low enough so they don't melt.

This is only correct if the writers got the physics right. The whole debate whether Shepard's armor could resist entering the atmosphere is based on the assumption that the authors didn't get the physics right. So what you are saying is basically that they got the physics right because the armor wouldn't exist if they didn't. This appears circular to me.


the math has already been done here. Which by the way was posted in the other thread.

http://social.biowar...31/blog/240451/

Final speed is about 250 km/h. I am too tired to calculate exactly at what height this will be, but for the rest look here

http://www.faa.gov/o... from Space.pdf

That's for the heating rate.
The formula is
heating rate: p
velocity: v=83 m/s
air density: rho=1 kg/m^3
radius of the nose, llet's assume shepard puts one square meter at risk, furthermore that he is approximately round, so that is: r=0.56 m.

Now we enter into the formula:

p=1.83e-4*v^3*sqrt(rho/r)

And we get a heating rate of 140 W/m^2.

Let's say Shepard's fall lasts 30 minutes. That's 1800 seconds. Human skin is 2 m^2.

So the thermal energy that has to be dissipated is 140 W/m^2*2m^2*1800 s=504 kJ.

Shepard's body weighs probably 100 kg with armor. Let's assume it has the same heat capacity as water, since that's what man largely consists of.

The increase in temperature is given by the following formula:

E=m*c*Delta T <=> Delta T =E/(m*c)
Delta T= 504 kJ/(100 kg *4kJ)*kg*K
=1.1 K

Hmm, that doesn't seem right. Anyway. If I didn't make a mistake, Shepard's body would heat up by 1.1 K. Which means you would be right.

Still the fact remains if you hit solid ground at 250 km/h, you are going to be a piece of garbage. Or rather a lot of pieces. And getting spaced is not healthy for the brain. Neither is methane.

thanks for participating. check out my explanations  for impact above.

Nerevar-as wrote...



Obviously the brain was intact enough so that memories stayed. They should build ships with whatever the helmet was made of.

It is possibile shepard went legs first, it is also important to note that the armor shepard is using uses are similar technique to ships entering the athmosphre. 

When the armor is hit by directed energy weapons, the plates boil away or ablate rather than burning the wearer.

it is likely seeing as what conditon shepard body was found that parts of the armor were boiled away on entry. and that the tears were sealed by the third body armor part: The last level of protection is provided by the suit's microframe computers, whose input detectors are woven throughout the fabric. These manage the self-healing system, which finds rents in the fabric and, assuming any such tear would wound the flesh underneath, seals the area off with sterile, non-conductive medi-gel. This stanches minor wounds and plugs holes in the suit that could prove fatal in vacuum or toxic environments. Soldiers are not always fond of the "squish skin" that oozes gel on them at a moment's notice, but fatalities have dropped sharply since the system was implemented.

Thus preventing the potential damage of the planet toxic atmosphere.

Cause of death could have been due to: trauma, lack of oxygen, cold inuries,

Modifié par erezike, 23 novembre 2013 - 08:52 .

[Erez Kristal]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

iakus wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

By the look of it, if you thought you were going to get an intelligent debate out of the OP then it wouldn't be with you. 

I have had intelligent debates with him in teh past.

Unfortunately in this thread (and the last) some folk seem determined to derail it.

It stopped being intelligent debate around the time he started declaring headcanon as objective fact, declaring that in-game events were not real (the Normandy Crash Site as being a fake for example), and making an indirect slight on me being an Officer in the military. 

 You never even bothered trying to explain why you think shepard was falling into the planet at super high velocity. all you attempted and still trying on this thread. is to derail the subject instead of confronting it with a decent answer. 

There was a time you were a practical user here on the bsn. now all you are doing is spreading gifs and hostility. whats so hard about presenting some facts and numbers to support you claims. or is your hate of the beginning of mass effect 2 is worth that much to you, that you are willing to go that far to become hostile towards other people and threads?

You pick on me stating a common officers behaviour. while you ignoring your own behaviour. which lead to that point and followed it. 

it doesnt need to be that way. you can simply try to participate and contribue to a discussion or avoid it all together.

Modifié par erezike, 23 novembre 2013 - 09:27 .

[Rasofe]

So I think what erezike is saying is essentially that because of the lack of definitive variables, any headcanon goes.
I swear though, anyone who actually goes off to put up the definitive variables just to prove him wrong... really, shouldn't you be cooking a meal or going to the museum or something instead?
This is all just going to end in a string of ad hominims.

[Eryri]

How much speed would Shepard have picked up before entering Alchera's atmosphere? If he was essentially dropped into the planet's gravity well from a great height, rather than being technically in orbit, then wouldn't the planet's gravity have accelerated him to quite a high speed? With no air resistance, might this speed have exceeded the terminal velocity in the atmosphere? If so, would the braking effect of the atmosphere be enough to reduce his speed to something more "survivable" in the time it took for him to fall all the way to the surface?

I'm genuinely curious, physics is not my strong suit.

[Rasofe]

It'd have to be a thick atmosphere. More like soup than air.
Alchera's atmospheric pressure being almost like Earths, and the ratio between pressure and density being an autonomous differential equation, I would expect them to be the same.

[Eryri]

Rasofe wrote...

It'd have to be a thick atmosphere. More like soup than air.
Alchera's atmospheric pressure being almost like Earths, and the ratio between pressure and density being an autonomous differential equation, I would expect them to be the same.

Ah right. So there wouldn't be enough time for the relatively thin atmosphere to scrub off enough of Shepard's speed then?

Thanks for the answer.

[Erez Kristal]

Eryri wrote...

Rasofe wrote...

It'd have to be a thick atmosphere. More like soup than air.
Alchera's atmospheric pressure being almost like Earths, and the ratio between pressure and density being an autonomous differential equation, I would expect them to be the same.

Ah right. So there wouldn't be enough time for the relatively thin atmosphere to scrub off enough of Shepard's speed then?

Thanks for the answer.

It is important to note that the gravity at higher alitudes is weaker than the gravity at lower altiudes. meaning that by the time shepard gain speed he/she is also slowed down. at the higher alitudes the pressure is lower leading to less friction(less heat and less ability to stop the acceleration) at lower altidues the air would be more dense(leading to higher friction and better acceleration stopping) it also important to note the air on alchera is cooler than earth. which would reduce heat. 
also important to not ignore mass effect fields quite yet as they are part of the gameplay canon and lore. they they can change the mass of the users so he is abe to ignore biotics attacks. there is no reason to believe they cannot reduce the mass of the user, leading to a more gentle fall and planet entry.



Watch this cool video of a man nowdays freefalling from 23 miles http://newsfeed.time...all-space-jump/.

Modifié par erezike, 23 novembre 2013 - 11:54 .

[Yougotcarved1]

tickle267 wrote...

@erezike
Basic physics tells us that mass doesn't affect acceleration due to gravity, so if Shepard was "lighter" s/he'd still be travelling at the same speed when s/he started entering the atmosphere (so s/he will still start burning up)

thats only in a vacuum, once in atmosphere it would massively affect his speed

[Rusty Sandusky]

 

This again?

[Erez Kristal]

tickle267 wrote...

@yougot
I know, i said so....
Shep will be travelling at the same speed when s/he hits the atmosphere, so s/he'll still start burning up, though granted, s/he'll decelerate quicker.

In order for shepard to have any chance at all of being salvageable after the fall. shepard had to start falling within a reasonable parts of the planet atmosphere. which is why the weight would have influence.

the question of how fast shepard was going when he/she hit the planet more dense parts of the athmosphere still remains. this is influenced by height of fall, and propellion speed. seeingas how a man survived on a fall from 23 miles on earth affected gravity with 2012 gear. i wonder what would be shepard chances of not turning into mush from 40 miles on alchera with 2183 gear with mass effect fields.

Modifié par erezike, 23 novembre 2013 - 11:59 .

[Reorte]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

Why are we applying outside physics to Mass Effect? With our physics the mass effect would never work, for example, reducing a ships mass to near 0 will never result in FTL travel. The Mass Effect universe operates under a different set of physical laws. For all we know Newtonian mechanics work differently.

As a general rule any decent speculative work of fiction will establish its exceptions to the real world fairly early on and then live with those and real-world physics. Anything that doesn't, and just makes up crap when it feels like it, is bad fiction. If you follow your logic you may as well say that Shepard survived by flapping his arms and flying down - you're arguing for having a world with no rules.

[David7204]

So that makes every single popular science fiction story of any considerable length in existence 'bad fiction,' then? Since every single one qualifies under that definition?

[Reorte]

tickle267 wrote...

@erezike
You're assuming that Shepard fell from ~40 miles? That's well within the planets atmosphere, and considering how much of the planet we see, plus the fact that the Normandy was clearly in space it must be a much higher number, therefore allowing Shepard to accelerate enough to burn up when s/he hits the atmosphere.

Shep looks clearly like (s)he's well above the atmosphere. Also, unless the Normandy was stationary relative to the planet (very unlikely) there would be a significant lateral component of motion by the time the atmosphere is reached. If Shepard was very, very lucky I suppose that might be enough to offer enough aerobraking after a few orbits without frying him, leaving you with just whatever you'd get from hitting the ground at terminal velocity. I'd have thought that that would require very good armour (possible) and a very precise trajectory (unlikely).

[Reorte]

David7204 wrote...

So that makes every single popular science fiction story of any considerable length in existence 'bad fiction,' then? Since every single one qualifies under that definition?

A great deal of them do indeed fail badly under that definition, to their detriment, although generally not to a significant degree. Trek has its warp drive and transporters and so on, established early on. Most other really big exceptions to science that occur later give the impression of clueless writers and are crap stories (watch Voyager's Threshold for a prime example of that).

Alternatively you can take the view that absolutely anything can and should be allowed, so there's no need for writers to have to make any effort at all. Or perhaps you're taking a ridiculously black and white view, that there will always be some issues because no writer is perfect, and minor bits of dubious science are therefore no different from major ones.

Modifié par Reorte, 23 novembre 2013 - 12:17 .

[David7204]

Alternatively you can take the view that while mistakes and screw-ups definitely do happen, there's a lot more behind some things than 'writers are stupid and clueless and don't understand science like I do.'

Apparently, you consider warp drive and transporters deviations from science. How is that, exactly?

[Reorte]

David7204 wrote...

Alternatively you can take the view that while mistakes and screw-ups definitely do happen, there's a lot more behind some things than 'writers are stupid and clueless and don't understand science like I do.'

Sometimes it's genuine error, sometimes it's obvious screw-up from someone who doesn't care. The former is forgiveable (although if there's too much of it you've got a bad work), the latter isn't, any more than setting a story in Egypt would be and giving it an arctic climate because you don't know anything about Egypt and haven't bothered to find out.

Apparently, you consider warp drive and transporters deviations from science. How is that, exactly?

Tell me how they work then. Just having a few suggestions about how some parts of them might just about be achievable if some theories have merit isn't the same thing at all. It's not quite in the same category as element zero but neither is it like nuclear fusion (where the science is well understood, it's the engineering issues stopping it from becoming a commonplace reality).

[David7204]

And sometimes there's very solid reasoning behind it. Perhaps you should consider that more often.

Reorte wrote...

Tell me how they work then.

Oh no, no, no. I don't have to explain or prove anything. You're making the accusation, the burden of proof rests entirely on you. If you find something inplausible in fiction, you're the one who has to prove that it's unlikely or impossible to work.

[AlexMBrennan]

Alternatively you can take the view that while mistakes and screw-ups definitely do happen, there's a lot more behind some things than 'writers are stupid and clueless and don't understand science like I do.'

Bioware was to cheap to hire consultants for parts of the story which require expert knowledge which Bioware writers obviously lack? That's how we got "pure krogan", Elder Space Gods with less advanced security than your average bank and so on.

[Cobalt2113]

It's cool, my Shepard just did a series of vertical biotic charges on the way down to slow her momentum.

HEADCANON LEVEL MAX

[Rasofe]

David7204 wrote...

And sometimes there's very solid reasoning behind it. Perhaps you should consider that more often.

Reorte wrote...

Tell me how they work then.

Oh no, no, no. I don't have to explain or prove anything. You're making the accusation, the burden of proof rests entirely on you. If you find something inplausible in fiction, you're the one who has to prove that it's unlikely or impossible to work.

Personally I think that barring thematic pitfalls, anything inplausible in fiction can just as easily be overlooked. It's only self-destructive to worry too much about these thngs.
No one needs to prove anything. Besides, this is the internet: one does not prove things on the internet.

[Rasofe]

Eryri wrote...

Rasofe wrote...

It'd have to be a thick atmosphere. More like soup than air.
Alchera's atmospheric pressure being almost like Earths, and the ratio between pressure and density being an autonomous differential equation, I would expect them to be the same.

Ah right. So there wouldn't be enough time for the relatively thin atmosphere to scrub off enough of Shepard's speed then?

Thanks for the answer.

No problem. As I said before - first post on this subject too - I wouldn't care if Shepard was vaporised, and Miranda had to put him back together using a vacuum cleaner. It gave me an excellent opportunity to send two of my characters over the edge, with my Paragade Shepard turning into a Renegade and my Renegon Shepard turning into a Paragon.
They were already heading in that direction given how the Citadel played out in the final moments of ME1, but a Complete and Utter Death was a great way to make the final push.
We don't complain about the Joker surviving a fall in acid with only a red helmet as protection, right? For those that do... I got nothin'.