197 réponses à ce sujet

[Yougotcarved1]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I have a fairly good idea of how high he was: They were in orbit. Pieces of the ship, and the chairs in the CIC were freely in orbit around the Normandy. The images that I see such as here indicate to me that the Normandy is in a low orbit above the planet, anywhere from 300 to 2000 km above the planet:

Yeah after re-examining your picture and the facts I concede they would have had to be much further than 40km above Alchera and would have been in space so you're right he probably would have burnt up. My bad.

[Rasofe]

I have no expectations. That would bias my studies of the community here.

[Reorte]

Rasofe wrote...

I hear Clarkes third getting invoked a lot. Why not just say space magic if you feel that way?
Clarkes law applies equally to things like people using light switches without knowing how they work as it does with say, element zero in the nerves letting people move things with their mind. It's not a euphemism for space magic, it's just the way technology works even today.

IIRC Clarke used it as a criticism of bad science fiction. If Shakespeare had used a light switch in one of his plays it would've been fine to target that as a criticism, since he had no means of knowing it was possible. What I expect from science fiction is to stick firmly with what we know is possible, some extrapolation from that to allow for new technology (AIs and fusion power being commonplace get me there) and in the lighter side some firmly-established new rules for the universe (eezo and biotics slip in under that in Mass Effect).

Since it's supposed to be science fiction there needs to be some good reason to think that the writer isn't just using magic and claiming it's science because of the whole "indistinguishable from" thing, particularly if it happens at random just to pull the plot out of an awkward place. A lot of the satisfaction from a good piece of fiction comes from working out how characters can pull themselves out of a given situation, and if you start thinking that some brand new piece of magic will be created from nothing just to do that then you've killed a lot of the drama. The same happens with spectacle - look how dull action scenes can get no matter how visually impressive if it doesn't look like anyone is actually achieving anything. The lots of Smiths fight in whichever Matrix film it was was incredibly boring because of that.

For a light "science fiction" piece, or at any rate a space opera,  the issue should be largely avoided simply by making the science largely irrelevent to what's going on. If key parts of your story revolve around them then you have to get them right.

[Rasofe]

Clarke, the man who wrote 2001, used it as a criticism of bad sci fi? Really?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Yougotcarved1 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I have a fairly good idea of how high he was: They were in orbit. Pieces of the ship, and the chairs in the CIC were freely in orbit around the Normandy. The images that I see such as here indicate to me that the Normandy is in a low orbit above the planet, anywhere from 300 to 2000 km above the planet:

Yeah after re-examining your picture and the facts I concede they would have had to be much further than 40km above Alchera and would have been in space so you're right he probably would have burnt up. My bad.

Don't worry about it. 

The more you know! 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Rasofe wrote...

I have no expectations. That would bias my studies of the community here.

It's more of an expectation of a reponse.

You say something. You get a response.

Doesn't matter what it is. 

[Rasofe]

And you wanted the thread closed. See, everything is going fine.

[Rasofe]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Rasofe wrote...

I have no expectations. That would bias my studies of the community here.

It's more of an expectation of a reponse.

You say something. You get a response.

Doesn't matter what it is. 

Meanwhile the only thread I've made is dead. 

[AlanC9]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Being stubborn and stalwart and condescending? He posted his explanation (which is entirely his own headcanon, as well as completely inconsistent with modern physics) and, when presented with a counter argument, dismissed it without really giving any kind of counter-example why and changing goalposts. 

Wait a second.... how'd he get the physics wrong, again? Unless we throw in an unwaranted assumption that Normandy was moving at a high speed relative to Alchera, his numbers worked. IIRC, of course.

Modifié par AlanC9, 23 novembre 2013 - 06:16 .

[Rasofe]

And thus the coils continue...

[Ravensword]

So, is this the kind of passionate and intelligent debates that Jessica Merizan was talking about?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

AlanC9 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Being stubborn and stalwart and condescending? He posted his explanation (which is entirely his own headcanon, as well as completely inconsistent with modern physics) and, when presented with a counter argument, dismissed it without really giving any kind of counter-example why and changing goalposts. 

Wait a second.... how'd he get the physics wrong, again? Unless we throw in an unwaranted assumption that Normandy was moving at a high speed relative to Alchera, his numbers worked. IIRC, of course.

Where did his numbers work? I didn't see an equation.

[Iakus]

erezike wrote...
because of the limits of terminal velocity on planets with athmosphere shepard impact speed would limited to a speed unable to render shepard into human goo, it would be enough to break everybone on shepard body. but the body would still be salvageable. 

Every advance body armor planned for hazerdous planets battle has the ability to seal itself after a short while. it is very likely and expected that shepard suit sealed itself after begun escaping.  there could have been some exposure to vaccum just before shepard suite managed to seal itself. it is likely that none of the organs(like brain) were damaged enough to prevent lazarus resseruction. 

even without armor and special freefall safety measures. shepard should not turn into goo when hitting the ground at terminal velocity.  just look on real life cases.

For a given value of "salvageable" Alchera's gravity and atmospheric pressure is only about 15% less than Earth's.  Shep would still be slamming full-tilt into a planet at a speed approximating a speeding car.

Velocity doesn't hurt you, it's trying to change it that does.  Or as the saying goes, "it's not the fall that kills you, it's the sudden stop at the end."

From Miranda's journal:

"Test subject has been recovered, but the damage is far worse than we initialy feared.  In addition to the expected burns and internal injuries from the explosion, subject has suffered significant cellular breakdown due to long-term exposure to vacuum and subzero temperatures"

Emphasis mine

[Darks1d3]

Rasofe wrote...

And you wanted the thread closed. See, everything is going fine.

This thread ran its course a long time ago. Now it's on life support, just pull the ****ing plug already. 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

iakus wrote...

erezike wrote...
because of the limits of terminal velocity on planets with athmosphere shepard impact speed would limited to a speed unable to render shepard into human goo, it would be enough to break everybone on shepard body. but the body would still be salvageable. 

Every advance body armor planned for hazerdous planets battle has the ability to seal itself after a short while. it is very likely and expected that shepard suit sealed itself after begun escaping.  there could have been some exposure to vaccum just before shepard suite managed to seal itself. it is likely that none of the organs(like brain) were damaged enough to prevent lazarus resseruction. 

even without armor and special freefall safety measures. shepard should not turn into goo when hitting the ground at terminal velocity.  just look on real life cases.

For a given value of "salvageable" Alchera's gravity and atmospheric pressure is only about 15% less than Earth's.  Shep would still be slamming full-tilt into a planet at a speed approximating a speeding car.

Velocity doesn't hurt you, it's trying to change it that does.  Or as the saying goes, "it's not the fall that kills you, it's the sudden stop at the end."

From Miranda's journal:

"Test subject has been recovered, but the damage is far worse than we initialy feared.  In addition to the expected burns and internal injuries from the explosion, subject has suffered significant cellular breakdown due to long-term exposure to vacuum and subzero temperatures"

Emphasis mine

You're also forgetting, and THEY (Bioware writers) forgot the initial handling by the meatheads of the Shadow Broker, then by Liara and Feron transporting Shepard to a safe spot to meet Cerberus Operatives. 

[Iakus]

Rasofe wrote...

Clarke, the man who wrote 2001, used it as a criticism of bad sci fi? Really?

It doesn't have to be bad science fiction to use the Third Law.  But it can, and often is, used badly.  Or as an excuse to justify bad scifi

Like in Mass Effect.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Darks1d3 wrote...

Rasofe wrote...

And you wanted the thread closed. See, everything is going fine.

This thread ran its course a long time ago. Now it's on life support, just pull the ****ing plug already. 

No, we can't. It may be residing outside of the body. 

[Erez Kristal]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...



I have a fairly good idea of how high he was: They were in orbit. Pieces of the ship, and the chairs in the CIC were freely in orbit around the Normandy. The images that I see such as here indicate to me that the Normandy is in a low orbit above the planet, anywhere from 300 to 2000 km above the planet:

This is a comparative image of the orbital altitudes of Earth.



Here is the higher resolution image of the above.

Your claim of it being 20 - 40 miles above the surface would mean that the pieces of the Normandy, as well as the Normandy itself once it has been attacked, would be in freefall immediately.

Also, Shepard's falling body clearly has a heat trail that is seen when objects fall through the atmosphere.

 I am glad to see that the argument shifted more towards discussing topic instead of falling into personal pointless attacks.

A man jumped from at least 37 km (23) in 2012. without any heatshields and lived perfectly fine afterwards.



Since we dont know at what height above alchera objects begin to burn when entering the planet athmosphere i will be using earth as an example for this debate.

for earth objects begin to burn when entering the athmisphere at 62 miles / 100 km.
a shimmer is seen around shepard pretty early after leaving the normandy due to the explosion.(27 seconds after the explosion) considering shepard would first need to accelerate before gaining that shimmer, we can assume that if this was earth  then shepard would have been free falling from 65 km to 105 km. 

It is not unlikely that the normandy started at orbit and then during the battle manuvered closer towards the planet.


The final issue of debate is the picture of sheppard falling into the planet. the planet is 50% larger than earth 



lets debate the distance issue.

27 seconds after the explosion shepard would enter the atmosphere. where his/her weight will start playing part in his/her decent into the planet. it will help decrease the speed of the decent and impact with the planet. 
weight changing armor upgrades are a strong part of the mass effect lore. add to all this shepard special armor which can stop rockets and there you have it.

Meat and tubes served for your liking.

iakus wrote...

erezike wrote...
because of the limits of terminal velocity on planets with athmosphere shepard impact speed would limited to a speed unable to render shepard into human goo, it would be enough to break everybone on shepard body. but the body would still be salvageable. 

Every advance body armor planned for hazerdous planets battle has the ability to seal itself after a short while. it is very likely and expected that shepard suit sealed itself after begun escaping.  there could have been some exposure to vaccum just before shepard suite managed to seal itself. it is likely that none of the organs(like brain) were damaged enough to prevent lazarus resseruction. 

even without armor and special freefall safety measures. shepard should not turn into goo when hitting the ground at terminal velocity.  just look on real life cases.

For a given value of "salvageable" Alchera's gravity and atmospheric pressure is only about 15% less than Earth's.  Shep would still be slamming full-tilt into a planet at a speed approximating a speeding car.

Velocity doesn't hurt you, it's trying to change it that does.  Or as the saying goes, "it's not the fall that kills you, it's the sudden stop at the end."

From Miranda's journal:

"Test subject has been recovered, but the damage is far worse than we initialy feared.  In addition to the expected burns and internal injuries from the explosion, subject has suffered significant cellular breakdown due to long-term exposure to vacuum and subzero temperatures"

Emphasis mine

This is where terminal velocity, armor and element zero comes into play. they all serve to reduce the impact hit and lead to meat and tubes. people who free falled with terminal velocity didnt turn into mush(most of the time)


- subzero temperatures is a no brainer. but as we can see in the opening movie. long term exposure to vaccum is attribued to the 27 seconds until shepard hit the more dense layers of the planet atmosphere and the suit repair itself. miranda didnt mention exposure to toxics. it is my assumption that the 27 seconds exposure is considered long term exposure for vaccum as it is very leathel. exposure to subzero temperatures was the condition shepard was in until they salvaged his/her corpse.

Modifié par erezike, 23 novembre 2013 - 07:41 .

[Rasofe]

Um... how does weight change the velocity at which he impacts the planet, again?
If he's heavier, the atmosphere will have more trouble slowing him down, not less.

Modifié par Rasofe, 23 novembre 2013 - 07:40 .

[Erez Kristal]

Rasofe wrote...

Um... how does weight change the velocity at which he impacts the planet, again?
If he's heavier, the atmosphere will have more trouble slowing him down, not less.

i was talking about element zero lowering shepard weight. in the mass effect universe using the element zero can help and object gain or reduce weight. it was refering to using the element zero power cores in shepard suit to help him/her lose weight and slow down once entering the planet athmosphere.

[Yougotcarved1]

erezike, he would burn up since the picture looks a lot higher than 37km. In fact if you look at a picture taken from the ISS (400km from Earth) it looks similar to the distance from Alchera in the cutscene. If you take into account Alcheras 50% additional mass (thus giving a much larger acceleration than even Earth) Shepard would be burnt to a crisp

[Rasofe]

It looks to me like he suffocated unconscious, Erezike. He's falling motionlessly and silently towards the planet.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Rasofe wrote...

Um... how does weight change the velocity at which he impacts the planet, again?
If he's heavier, the atmosphere will have more trouble slowing him down, not less.

Futuristic lightweight self-sealing composites. Duh! This stuff can stop rockets, and the weight is negligable. Didn't you learn anything playing the game?

Shepard weighs less wearing armor than without.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 23 novembre 2013 - 07:54 .

[Erez Kristal]

Yougotcarved1 wrote...

erezike, he would burn up since the picture looks a lot higher than 37km. In fact if you look at a picture taken from the ISS (400km from Earth) it looks similar to the distance from Alchera in the cutscene. If you take into account Alcheras 50% additional mass (thus giving a much larger acceleration than even Earth) Shepard would be burnt to a crisp

Alchera case s rather for my common sense, but i dont work for nasa so i dont really have break my head with it. 

alchera has 76%  more mass than earth but has 15% less gravity.
which would mean less pull and smaller acceleration that earth.

Lower planet athmosphere pressue would mean less friction.

the shimmer glow 27 seconds from explosion means shepard hit the atmosphere at a reasonable speed 27 after the explosion. it means shepard distance is 27 seconds away at max from the atmosphere. once in the atmosphere shepard would be able to slow down, in suit mass effect field generator could greatly help shepard to slow down to reasonable speeds.



the radius of alchera is almost 50% more of earth. but we dont see any picture of it compareable to the one posted by massively earlier. its hard to determine the distance using the picture.  
37 km is the distance jumped by the free fall athlethe. i gave an estimation of 66-105. the planet would look much farther away than the 37 km picture.

[Rasofe]

I'd appreciate less snark, shotgun. My learning from the game was mostly concerned with keeping eye contact with the people I converse with.

OT: Unless the suit automatically lowers his weight, he wouldn't activate it, being unconscious. If he did, he wouldn't die landing at all considering that he could dive in like the mako.

Modifié par Rasofe, 23 novembre 2013 - 08:00 .