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Please dont give us another meradith or orsino type thing!


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#51
TreeHuggerHannah

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x-aizen-x wrote...

And I literally kissed meradith's ass...

There was an option for that? :blink:

;)

I thought Meredith's ending was actually set up pretty well. There had been increasing hints for the past two acts that she was starting to lose it, and that even her own templars were questioning her orders. The lyrium idol had been brought into the plot early on too, so it didn't come out of left field even if it was slightly facile as an explanation. Meredith's extreme paranoia made it seem in-character that she might turn on a templar supporter in the end. I could buy her story.

Orsino if you supported mages... not so much. Even if he was operating on the assumption that we were losing (which we clearly weren't,) it makes no sense to transform into a creature that would kill completely indiscriminately and attempt to wipe out the people who had come to fight on your behalf as well as your enemies. 

When my Hawke got to that point, I was thinking, "Okay, Orsino, if you must... but we're going to talk about this later..." and pulled my party back to try to avoid aggroing him, thinking we might be able to fight side by side. He turned hostile on the party anyway. So that helped mages how, exactly?

I could buy Orsino just being crazy as an explanation - except that unlike Meredith's slip into madness, it wasn't set up at all. He seemed sane and reasonable up to the point he went omnicidal, so it just seemed like a random change of character.

I hope this was a learning experience for the team, and that Inquisition will do a better job of supporting the endgame plot points so they don't come out of nowhere like Orsino as a boss fight did in DA2.

#52
KC_Prototype

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Yeah, that's where DA2's impact of choice took a spell. It was like no matter what side you chose, you basically got the same outcome. It should of been which side you chose, their leader didn't die and it changed Kirkwall, like if you sided with the Templars, you rule Kirkwall with most mages either dead or fled the city and then Hawke mysteriously disappears later and it affects how your companions differently. As for siding with the mages, you and Orsino kill Meredith and you free all the mages and then leave the city.

#53
Jigglypuff

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orsino and meredith had so much ust, they should've just gotten over with it and it would have spared the city of kirkwall.

I hope the next antagonists will be at least interesting.

#54
aerisblight

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a harbinger kind of antagonist would be fun x3 as long as it doesnt fly off thou....

#55
Nattfare

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x-aizen-x wrote...

What exactly did the staff violate?Image IPB


Player agency. Obviously.

#56
Nalia_dArnise

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I liked Orsino. So pity we can't save him. And so pity that the scene was presented badly, so we can't understand why the first enchanter did such thing. That moment he seems gone crazy, and it's not clear from where so much corpses of mages appear. I understand that he coudln't stand death of his follower any more, but the death wasn't showed clear, and it isn't clear what was use of transforming into an abomination.

Meredith. Hate her. I respected Loghain in DAO; but Meredith I didn't respect at all. But when her madness became clear, it was impressive and scary scene, so I started to like Meredith... A bit.

#57
Giga Drill BREAKER

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tbf Orsino was partly responsible for the string of murders that, that guy who killed Hawke's mother commited.

#58
Usergnome

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Akernis wrote...

I think that Maredith was somewhat justified in the fact that the red lyrium idol was literally poisoning her mind, and she was more insane than anything at this point.
But even so it still felt a bit akward.

Orsino's made no sense what so ever. If you side againt him I can kind of see why he would be driven to such desperate extremes. But if you side with him it felt really forced and unnecessary, suddenly out of the blue he just goes nuts and create a horrific blood magic ritual which ends up with him killing everyone he can indiscreminantly, templars, mages and allies alike. 

Hey whoa now, Meredith was NOT insane before she got the idol! As you say at the end, all her cruel vigilance was justified; the first enchanter himself and SO MANY circle mages were blood mages. At the end, yeah she went crazy though.

He didn't just go nuts; he knows Blood Magic and when he was backed into a corner he gave in. If he did it in the middle of a fight, then he might have killed Templars. But he just killed mages... Stupid, eh? If you listen to him, he admits he knew blood magic and he must know of the blood mages in his circle. He wants to make mages seem less threatening so the Templars will be less strict, which I understand, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

That said, I also disliked having to kill both of them. I would have preferred if atleast one of them survived. Meredith, because I absolutely love her Voice Actor since I remember her from Age of Mythology sooo many years ago.

#59
Giga Drill BREAKER

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Merdith's behaviour wasn't justified before the idol, granted she wasn't insane but she was cruel and vindictive, it is understandable that mages reacted the way they did, they were basically slaves/prisoners, don't get me wrong I don't agree with how they responded but there actions was definitely understandable.

#60
Laughing_Man

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Karsciyin wrote...

In most circumstances, I would agree with you. (I'm typically a mage-supporter after all.) One should not bow to one's enemy for his convenience. However, one is not 'entrapping' you into doing anything, your choices are always your own. Sinking to base levels is how wars start.

However, I believe the reasons blood magic are forbidden is what they involve: the use of an innocents blood, the mind-control of others, the summoning of spirits. Not all mages do this, but enough do. Not all nuclear missles have been fired, but it is still a cause for concern when countries start building them.
What makes mages the most dangerous is demonic possession - and the abomination slaughtering or enslaving mortals for power, amusement, avarice... before the templars can put them down. Though templars have become corrupt and power-hungry, treating mages like convicted criminals, their original pupose is protect mages for each other, and themselves, as well as protected townsfolk from mage gone awry.
DAO's posessed!Conor murdered all his castle staff, then resurrected them, and sent this undead army to murder his townsfolk too. Original Conor is HIGHLY unlikely to have done that. Intentions are irrelevant - once the demon is there, it has control.
Dealing with demons for blood magic IS exposing yourself to demonic influence. This is why it makes the templars nervous. Consider this: why would demons make deals with people they didn't think they could control? Why should they exert effort to give someone who treats them with disdain something for nothing? All blood mages seen thus are either power-hungry (eg: Uldred) or foolish (eg: Jowan). And then there are those that think they are smart enough to prevent it. Consider Merrill - without the keeper stopping it, the entirity of Thedas would have been at the mercy of a mighty corporeal demon! Yet Merrill was adamant she was in control the entire time, she knew what she was doing, her blood magic was harmless.

To bring back to topic (before this turns into another templar-vs-mage), Orsino is a very poor example of this. In the mage ending, he performs this ritual unneccessarily, for the sake of extra power the mages are winning. In the templar ending, he has killed the other students to fuel this power, thus 'saving lives' isn't exactly his goal - it's revenge. It's violence.
And if he wins? What then? Does he write his memoirs with his half-dozen hands and start an orchestral band? Or does he begat more voilence by stamping on anything or anyone who opposing him, innocents (like citizens) and mage-sympathisers (like Thrask or, more indirectly, Isabela) caught in the crosshairs of massive upheaval?

Orsino also has been an intellectual correspondent with Quentin (who zombie'd your mother), trading information regarding this ritual. Thus, even before extreme duress, Orsino has been participating in blood magic. Provable in an indirect fashion, his transformation showing likely in a direct fashion also.


Though the ending still looks foolish with Orsino suddenly turning upon Hawke, with this information I wouldn't be surprised that this were an inevitability, even without Meredith's involvement. Something would eventually push him to consider this an acceptable act. Mages like this are why the real men and women in the circle, that just want to live normally, are still kept under lock and key. (Guys stop making everyone else look bad!)


A few things:

A. Regarding connor: he never used blood-magic.
The Connor situation came about because he was not educated about the temptations of demons and about how to resist them. Jowan, despite the fact that I have some sympathy for him, was probably not qualified to teach anyone. Essentialy, what the Chantry is saying is "you are going to do it our way, or not at all, and Damn the consequences ". And so a misguided mother was left with Jowan as the only option for a teacher for her son.

B. Regarding blood-magic in general.
Blood-Magic users are easy to villify, because since age zero we are taught that "heroes" or "super-heroes" look in a certain way, and have certain powers, while "villains" or "super-villains" have their own seperate look and arsenal of powers. Naturally, blood-magic, is a villain's weapon because it's rather disgusting and disturbing for most people, and because of the lack of white lights and heavenly choirs...
In some ways it is similar to the "good-knight-versus-evil-witch" trope which was invented probably in order to make early religious atrocities easier to swallow.

C. "Blood-Magic" Vs. "Death-magic", and mind-control.
Canon DA makes no real distinction between the use of the caster's own blood for magic, to the slaughter of countless of innocents to fuel magic, or the domination of minds for nefarious purposes.
It simply hand-waves it all into a neat pile called "blood-magic", with the use of scary words like "evil", "demons", "corruption", etc.

Some people are going to use blood-magic in those ways - I agree. But pretending that most sane people will inevitably fall from using their own blood to slaughtering slaves, is as one-dimensional as it is outrageous.

D. I got the feeling, that Orsino's crimes and his rather surprising... transformation at the end *no matter what you chose*, were ham-fistedly inserted into the plot, because otherwise people would have had an harder time justifying and identifying with the templars, what's with their atitude of "kill them all and let the maker sort them out".

This is in contrast to Meredith's insanity, which was simply a complication and not the the only or worse case of Templar abuse and cruelty in DA2.

Modifié par TheRedVipress, 23 novembre 2013 - 02:21 .


#61
TreeHuggerHannah

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Phoenixalex wrote...

orsino and meredith had so much ust, they should've just gotten over with it and it would have spared the city of kirkwall.

I feel strangely validated that I wasn't the only person who had that thought! I seem to recall muttering "Get a room" under my breath during a couple of their arguments. :P

#62
MisterJB

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Personally; and I admit my views may be colored due to my Pro-Templar mentality; I thought Orsino's breakdown made absolute sense.
First, we would have to take into account Orsino's personality.
“You deny us our freedom so that you may sleep better at night, but I say it is a restless and undeserved slumber.”

That is a quote from his codex entry and it paints him as resentful of the non-mage population. Then, there is the fact he was good friends with a man whose hobby involved cutting and sewing together middle aged women; not only that, Orsino took great interest in his blood magic and necromantic research. Plus, he was willing to conceal his crimes which suggests he had little to no compassion towards his victims which is in line with his previous characterization as someone who is resentful of non-mages.

Now, consider the situation. Pro-mage players usually claim that they were winning but I don't believe the facts lead to this conclusion.
Certainly, you are playing well and you are surviving but we are told very early on how Kirkwall is the center of Templar power in the East and how Meredith holds the true power within the city. All of this suggests there is a great, great number of Templars in Kirkwall and its surroundings that she can call upon; too many even for Hawke to defeat. Remember, Hawke never defeats the Templars, they just let him/her go.
The corpses of mages that are always present; regardless of how skilled of a player you are; indicate that the situation was far from hopeful for the mages.

Therefore, Orsino; who always resented non-mages for taking away the freedom of mages in order to feel safe; finds himself in a situation where the person he hates the most in the world will kill him and then go sleep like a newborn child. That's when he snaps and decides to cast a spell not to save mages or win the battle but simply to punish Meredith and the city as a whole.
This makes sense when you think about how, in the Templar ending, Orsino will do just that. Kill mages for no reason other than to punish Meredith and the city. He even says that he is well past caring when Hawke accuses him of proving Meredith right. At that point, both in the Mage and Templar endings, Orsino doesn't want to save mages, he doesn't want to win the battle, he doesn't want freedom. He just wants to kill those he hates.

That's my view, anyway.

Modifié par MisterJB, 23 novembre 2013 - 05:28 .


#63
Hellion Rex

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MisterJB wrote...

Personally; and I admit my views may be colored due to my Pro-Templar mentality; I tought Orsino's breakdown made absolute sense.
First, we would have to take into account Orsino's personality.
“You deny us our freedom so that you may sleep better at night, but I say it is a restless and undeserved slumber.”

That is a quote from his codex entry and it paints him as resentful of the non-mage population. Then, there is the fact he was good friends with a man whose hobby involved cutting and sewing together middle aged women; not only that, Orsino took great interest in his blood magic and necromantic research. Plus, he was willing to conceal his crimes which suggests he had little to no compassion towards his victims which is in line with his previous characterization as someone who is resentful of non-mages.

Now, consider the situation. Pro-mage players usually claim that they were winning but I don't believe the facts lead to this conclusion.
Certainly, you are playing well and you are surviving but we are told very early on how Kirkwall is the center of Templar power in the East and how Meredith holds the true power within the city. All of this suggests there is a great, great number of Templars in Kirkwall and its surroundings that she can call upon; too many even for Hawke to defeat. Remember, Hawke never defeats the Templars, they just let him/her go.
The corpses of mages that are always present; regardless of how skilled of a player you are; indicate that the situation was far from hopeful for the mages.

Therefore, Orsino; who always resented non-mages for taking away the freedom of mages in order to feel safe; finds himself in a situation where the person he hates the most in the world will kill him and then go sleep like a newborn child. That's when he snaps and decides to cast a spell not to save mages or win the battle but simply to punish Meredith and the city as a whole.
This makes sense when you think about how, in the Templar ending, Orsino will do just that. Kill mages for no reason other than to punish Meredith and the city. He even says that he is well past caring when Hawke accuses him of proving Meredith right. At that point, both in the Mage and Templar endings, Orsino doesn't want to save mages, he doesn't want to win the battle, he doesn't want freedom. He just wants to kill those he hates.

That's my view, anyway.

I'll be d*mned. I actually agree with the majority of this post;), except for the last paragraph.

Modifié par eluvianix, 23 novembre 2013 - 05:18 .


#64
MisterJB

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The last paragraph?

#65
Aaleel

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MisterJB wrote...

Personally; and I admit my views may be colored due to my Pro-Templar mentality; I tought Orsino's breakdown made absolute sense.
First, we would have to take into account Orsino's personality.
“You deny us our freedom so that you may sleep better at night, but I say it is a restless and undeserved slumber.”

That is a quote from his codex entry and it paints him as resentful of the non-mage population. Then, there is the fact he was good friends with a man whose hobby involved cutting and sewing together middle aged women; not only that, Orsino took great interest in his blood magic and necromantic research. Plus, he was willing to conceal his crimes which suggests he had little to no compassion towards his victims which is in line with his previous characterization as someone who is resentful of non-mages.

Now, consider the situation. Pro-mage players usually claim that they were winning but I don't believe the facts lead to this conclusion.
Certainly, you are playing well and you are surviving but we are told very early on how Kirkwall is the center of Templar power in the East and how Meredith holds the true power within the city. All of this suggests there is a great, great number of Templars in Kirkwall and its surroundings that she can call upon; too many even for Hawke to defeat. Remember, Hawke never defeats the Templars, they just let him/her go.
The corpses of mages that are always present; regardless of how skilled of a player you are; indicate that the situation was far from hopeful for the mages.

Therefore, Orsino; who always resented non-mages for taking away the freedom of mages in order to feel safe; finds himself in a situation where the person he hates the most in the world will kill him and then go sleep like a newborn child. That's when he snaps and decides to cast a spell not to save mages or win the battle but simply to punish Meredith and the city as a whole.
This makes sense when you think about how, in the Templar ending, Orsino will do just that. Kill mages for no reason other than to punish Meredith and the city. He even says that he is well past caring when Hawke accuses him of proving Meredith right. At that point, both in the Mage and Templar endings, Orsino doesn't want to save mages, he doesn't want to win the battle, he doesn't want freedom. He just wants to kill those he hates.

That's my view, anyway.


I don't really agree with that.  Orsino says on that things seem hopeless but with the Champion with them they may have a chance.  After pushing back the fisrt wave Orsino would be more likely to have a "maybe we can do this attitude" rather than a "this is hopeless attitude". 

Also if his goal was to punish Meredith and the city as a whole step outside say a few words, use blood magic and have at it.  Using blood magic and attacking your allies doesn't make sense any way you look at it.

Go outside and create a diversion that allows the remaining mages to slip away, some obviously slipped away when Hawke went out and confronted Meredith. 

What Orsino did and how he did it makes no logical sense whatsoever.

#66
TreeHuggerHannah

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Aaleel wrote...

Also if his goal was to punish Meredith and the city as a whole step outside say a few words, use blood magic and have at it.  Using blood magic and attacking your allies doesn't make sense any way you look at it.

Yeah, that's the part that doesn't make sense to me either - how does transforming at that particular moment punish anyone but himself and his supporters (and Hawke's party if you lose)?

If he'd done the same thing in, say, a crowded market or the chantry during mass, I would absolutely buy the explanation that he just wanted to strike a blow at the city to punish the complacent.


With the timing and location he chose, no one who isn't present will even have to know it happened (particularly if you take the view that the mages were certain to be overwhelmed by templars shortly,) so I don't see how it makes much of a statement or represents any sort of revenge.

Modifié par TreeHuggerHannah, 23 novembre 2013 - 05:41 .


#67
Vit246

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AGAIN. DA2 was rushed and the developers demanded a boss fight.

#68
MisterJB

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Aaleel wrote...
I don't really agree with that.  Orsino says on that things seem hopeless but with the Champion with them they may have a chance.  After pushing back the fisrt wave Orsino would be more likely to have a "maybe we can do this attitude" rather than a "this is hopeless attitude". 

There is such a thing as a pyrrhic victory. Sure, Hawke's aid leads to the Circle defeating the first wave but all the mages; other than Orsino; who were figthing there are dead while Meredith has many more Templars to send. The second wave would have finished them off.

Also if his goal was to punish Meredith and the city as a whole step outside say a few words, use blood magic and have at it.  Using blood magic and attacking your allies doesn't make sense any way you look at it.

Go outside and create a diversion that allows the remaining mages to slip away, some obviously slipped away when Hawke went out and confronted Meredith. 

You are assuming that Orsino cares about his allies to the point where he would be unwilling to kill them along with the Templars that are already on the way which is not, necessarely, true.
And, again, the fact that Orsino kills mages in the Templar ending proves that he is more interested in killing Meredith than in saving mages. Altough, I don't see how his transformation hinders any escape attempts that may have already been underway.

#69
Aaleel

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Vit246 wrote...

AGAIN. DA2 was rushed and the developers demanded a boss fight.


You had one.  Was there a quota of two?  The problem most people have is being forced to fight your ally and your enemy regardless of which side you chose.

#70
Laughing_Man

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MisterJB wrote...

Personally; and I admit my views may be colored due to my Pro-Templar mentality; I thought Orsino's breakdown made absolute sense.
First, we would have to take into account Orsino's personality.
“You deny us our freedom so that you may sleep better at night, but I say it is a restless and undeserved slumber.”

That is a quote from his codex entry and it paints him as resentful of the non-mage population. Then, there is the fact he was good friends with a man whose hobby involved cutting and sewing together middle aged women; not only that, Orsino took great interest in his blood magic and necromantic research. Plus, he was willing to conceal his crimes which suggests he had little to no compassion towards his victims which is in line with his previous characterization as someone who is resentful of non-mages.

Now, consider the situation. Pro-mage players usually claim that they were winning but I don't believe the facts lead to this conclusion.
Certainly, you are playing well and you are surviving but we are told very early on how Kirkwall is the center of Templar power in the East and how Meredith holds the true power within the city. All of this suggests there is a great, great number of Templars in Kirkwall and its surroundings that she can call upon; too many even for Hawke to defeat. Remember, Hawke never defeats the Templars, they just let him/her go.
The corpses of mages that are always present; regardless of how skilled of a player you are; indicate that the situation was far from hopeful for the mages.

Therefore, Orsino; who always resented non-mages for taking away the freedom of mages in order to feel safe; finds himself in a situation where the person he hates the most in the world will kill him and then go sleep like a newborn child. That's when he snaps and decides to cast a spell not to save mages or win the battle but simply to punish Meredith and the city as a whole.
This makes sense when you think about how, in the Templar ending, Orsino will do just that. Kill mages for no reason other than to punish Meredith and the city. He even says that he is well past caring when Hawke accuses him of proving Meredith right. At that point, both in the Mage and Templar endings, Orsino doesn't want to save mages, he doesn't want to win the battle, he doesn't want freedom. He just wants to kill those he hates.

That's my view, anyway.


I can see where you are coming from, and this is a somewhat logical explanation, but this isn't exactly what I saw in game.

First, as I understand it, his quote is directed against those responsible for the various brutal acts we saw in DA2, and also regarding the general policy of the Chantry. I don't see any proof here that he looked down on non-mages in general.

Second, regarding that necromancer (Quentin?), It was never really clear to me from in game info what was the extent of Orsino's knowledge regarding those experiments. Was the discussion theoretical? Was he aware of actual crimes? Did he choose to feign ignorance? Was he a psychopathic killer himself? What exactly was he hoping to do with this knowledge, to kill, or to heal?
I am not really sure.

Third, regarding the tactical situation in the battle.
Yes, we see dead mages, that was to be expected, but the fact is that somehow Hawke and Co. (and maybe other surviving mages) managed to survive the attack, outlive Orsino's madness, and then take down something more powerful than any mage or abomination we encountered thus far.

In the cutscene, I didn't see Templars "letting" Hawke go, I saw Templars stepping back because they didn't think that they had a chance against a group that managed to survive this unprecedented carnage.

Modifié par TheRedVipress, 23 novembre 2013 - 05:54 .


#71
Aaleel

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MisterJB wrote...

There is such a thing as a pyrrhic victory. Sure, Hawke's aid leads to the Circle defeating the first wave but all the mages; other than Orsino; who were figthing there are dead while Meredith has many more Templars to send. The second wave would have finished them off.


This is an assumption.

MisterJB wrote...
You are assuming that Orsino cares about his allies to the point where he would be unwilling to kill them along with the Templars that are already on the way which is not, necessarely, true.
And, again, the fact that Orsino kills mages in the Templar ending proves that he is more interested in killing Meredith than in saving mages. Altough, I don't see how his transformation hinders any escape attempts that may have already been underway.


First you can't use something Orsino did in an alternate ending under completely different circumstances to say what he would have done in this ending.

Second, what templars are on the way?  Once you deal with Orsino you have to go outside and confront Meredith, I don't recall running into any templars on my way out.  There were nothing but allies in the room.  If the goal was to punish Meredith and templars who he obviously hates more than anything he would have gone out to make sure he got her.

#72
Hazegurl

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MisterJB wrote...

Personally; and I admit my views may be colored due to my Pro-Templar mentality; I thought Orsino's breakdown made absolute sense.
First, we would have to take into account Orsino's personality.
“You deny us our freedom so that you may sleep better at night, but I say it is a restless and undeserved slumber.”

That is a quote from his codex entry and it paints him as resentful of the non-mage population. Then, there is the fact he was good friends with a man whose hobby involved cutting and sewing together middle aged women; not only that, Orsino took great interest in his blood magic and necromantic research. Plus, he was willing to conceal his crimes which suggests he had little to no compassion towards his victims which is in line with his previous characterization as someone who is resentful of non-mages.

Now, consider the situation. Pro-mage players usually claim that they were winning but I don't believe the facts lead to this conclusion.
Certainly, you are playing well and you are surviving but we are told very early on how Kirkwall is the center of Templar power in the East and how Meredith holds the true power within the city. All of this suggests there is a great, great number of Templars in Kirkwall and its surroundings that she can call upon; too many even for Hawke to defeat. Remember, Hawke never defeats the Templars, they just let him/her go.
The corpses of mages that are always present; regardless of how skilled of a player you are; indicate that the situation was far from hopeful for the mages.

Therefore, Orsino; who always resented non-mages for taking away the freedom of mages in order to feel safe; finds himself in a situation where the person he hates the most in the world will kill him and then go sleep like a newborn child. That's when he snaps and decides to cast a spell not to save mages or win the battle but simply to punish Meredith and the city as a whole.
This makes sense when you think about how, in the Templar ending, Orsino will do just that. Kill mages for no reason other than to punish Meredith and the city. He even says that he is well past caring when Hawke accuses him of proving Meredith right. At that point, both in the Mage and Templar endings, Orsino doesn't want to save mages, he doesn't want to win the battle, he doesn't want freedom. He just wants to kill those he hates.

That's my view, anyway.



I agree completely. Orsino doesn't even save mages in the end, he kills them to fuel his own magic and if Bethany is there he becomes just as much a danger to her as Meredith.

#73
TreeHuggerHannah

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Vit246 wrote...

AGAIN. DA2 was rushed and the developers demanded a boss fight.

While that's true, it doesn't really address the issue here. They didn't simply throw in a random boss-level demon, for example - they made the conscious choice to use Orsino as that boss. I think that whether that fit and, if not, what lessons could be learned for Inquisition are very much valid discussion subjects regardless of the motivations for adding a second boss fight to the final mission.  :)

#74
Mr.House

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I had no problem killing Orsino and Meredith on the Templar ending, got rid of both crazies and I'm in power now, ohhhhhhh ya.

#75
Boycott Bioware

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Many blame Orsino for Quentin case, but Quentin case shows that Templars are just incompetent and useless...it is a Templar city but yet there is a serial Blood Mage crazy killer doing his things in 3 years for the lulz

What the Templar doing in 3 years?

Modifié par Qistina, 23 novembre 2013 - 06:16 .