166 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Aaleel wrote...
This is an assumption.

Yes, but a very safe one. Reallistically speaking, Hawke's companions plus Orsino can't stand up to an army.

First you can't use something Orsino did in an alternate ending under completely different circumstances to say what he would have done in this ending.

That is a complex issue but I disagree. If a character does something, then I believe that we should consider than character capable of doing that should certain conditions meet.

Second, what templars are on the way?  Once you deal with Orsino you have to go outside and confront Meredith, I don't recall running into any templars on my way out.  There were nothing but allies in the room. 

First, there were these ones that Orsino can see coming for him


And then, as you try to leave, there are also these fellas. Plus, reinforcements during the actual fights, of course. 



The mages were just hopelessly outnumbered

f the goal was to punish Meredith and templars who he obviously hates more than anything he would have gone out to make sure he got her.

There was no chance of him ever making it to her without the Harvester's power. And it's not like he could have just dragged the corpses.
Plus, Harvesters are insanely powerful. Hadn't Hawke stopped it, it would have torn through the Templars until it reached Meredith and, if they didn't stop it, it would have fallen upon the city which would have fulfilled Orsino's revenge.

[MisterJB]

TheRedVipress wrote...
First, as I understand it, his quote is directed against those responsible for the various brutal acts we saw in DA2, and also regarding the general policy of the Chantry. I don't see any proof here that he looked down on non-mages in general.

Perhaps but it seems to me that he is speaking in very general terms and adressing everyone who sleeps better because the mages are locked away.
Even if we follow your conclusion, it wouldn't change the possiblity of him throwing everything away just to kill Meredith. All it would change is that he would no longer be targeting the city specifically.

Second, regarding that necromancer (Quentin?), It was never really clear to me from in game info what was the extent of Orsino's knowledge regarding those experiments. Was the discussion theoretical? Was he aware of actual crimes? Did he choose to feign ignorance? Was he a psychopathic killer himself? What exactly was he hoping to do with this knowledge, to kill, or to heal?
I am not really sure.

If Orsino feared Meredith coming down hard on the mages because of Quentin, it stands to reason that he knew what he was doing would cause an outrage. Also, he describes his experiments as "too evil, too dangerous" which leads me to believe Orsino was very much aware of everything Quentin was doing.
And, despite all this, he still didn't care enough about non-mage lives to do something about it.
Which brings us back to the previous quote and how it might apply to all those bereft of magic.

Third, regarding the tactical situation in the battle.
Yes, we see dead mages, that was to be expected, but the fact is that somehow Hawke and Co. (and maybe other surviving mages) managed to survive the attack, outlive Orsino's madness, and then take down something more powerful than any mage or abomination we encountered thus far.

In the cutscene, I didn't see Templars "letting" Hawke go, I saw Templars stepping back because they didn't think that they had a chance against a group that managed to survive this unprecedented carnage.

The Templars were, obviously, intimidated but, realistically speaking, Orsino had Hawke&Co while Meredith had an army. It's no wonder he thought they were all doomed.
Which, honestly, they were.

[Boycott Bioware]

Hawke investigating Ninette going missing, then lead to the factory and attacked by demons and shades, then found sack of human bones and limbs...by that clearly it is not normal murder case

But Templar refuse investigation and "Tai Chi" it to the City Guard, the City Guard "Tai Chi" it back to the Templar for 3 years, and that lead to Hawke again investigating

Funnily, Leandra zombie is found in the same building 3 years ago

How come? How Quentin can get pass all the Templars in the city for 3 years? Templars surely hunting down Fenriyel up to Sundermount, but how come they can't found Quentin in the city in 3 years?

It's a bad writing

Modifié par Qistina, 23 novembre 2013 - 06:34 .

[Ravensword]

Qistina wrote...

Many blame Orsino for Quentin case, but Quentin case shows that Templars are just incompetent and useless...it is a Templar city but yet there is a serial Blood Mage crazy killer doing his things in 3 years for the lulz

What the Templar doing in 3 years?

Didn't a certain user put forth the idea of exterminating all mages right down to the very young?

[Aaleel]

All I remember fighting on the way out were a bunch of demons, blood mages, abominations, skeletons. But now that I remember all that was going on it really makes no sense. The templars couldn't even focus their full attention on Orsino, Hawke and the others.

There was really no need to view the situation as completely dire and lost. There were many other options.

[Magehand2278]

I disagree a lot of his comments are good and creative this thread and the next one about the good and the bad, I went through some of his threads he wrote and while I am very new here the last 3 I have seen they were insightful 

Knight of Dane wrote...

x-aizen-x wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

x-aizen-x wrote...

mx_keep13 wrote...

x-aizen-x wrote...

mx_keep13 wrote...

Do you get paid for all these threads

OOOOO LMFAO. we were so close SO close to just having a normal thread were the OP was simply the main discussion. But by GOD I was right. In every thread there just has to be that one guy.

well every couple hours you just post about things you dont like

Did not know there was something wrong with that. And other people do it to. Im just a big DA fan sorry.

Posting a thread every hour about stuff you dislike does not invite intellectual debate but flame wars. Half the time you bash people who are opposed to you.

Not especially endearing.
But now that's going further off topic. Baj

That's not my fault. if you ever read my old threads you will se that I tried. I tried to make a thread were people can go and post ideas about new enemy type's for DAI. People called me all kind of names, and acted like I was ****ing adolf hitler. So guess what happens It gets closed. The problem seems to be that people on here have a addiction to arguments.

My suggestion would be to write fewer, more thought out threads.

I try not to judge people based on a post, but the way you write is often with all caps words, and a lot smileys which comes off as either childish, sarcastic or obnoxious.

Try to reread your topics before you post and make sure you actually have an argument that invite for debate and not just random flaming and watch the structure of your paragraphs.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Yeah hawke was doomed because templars that he killed anyway without mages help and fighting with orisno as well damn thats is logical that they were doomed.

Orsino-psycho mode was pull pulled out of the a** for boss fight even devs said that...

[teh DRUMPf!!]

MisterJB wrote...

Personally; and I admit my views may be colored due to my Pro-Templar mentality; I thought Orsino's breakdown made absolute sense.
First, we would have to take into account Orsino's personality.
“You deny us our freedom so that you may sleep better at night, but I say it is a restless and undeserved slumber.”

That is a quote from his codex entry and it paints him as resentful of the non-mage population.

It sounds more like resentment towards general mage paranoia than any groups of people.

Then, there is the fact he was good friends with a man whose hobby involved cutting and sewing together middle aged women; not only that, Orsino took great interest in his blood magic and necromantic research. Plus, he was willing to conceal his crimes which suggests he had little to no compassion towards his victims which is in line with his previous characterization as someone who is resentful of non-mages.

I have yet to see evidence that proves Orsino knew of Quentin's murders and mutilations before he was caught.

All I've seen is a note that proves he gave him books on necromancy and such.

And he was right to research those things, I'd say, considering the ticking time-bomb was Meredith.

Now, consider the situation. Pro-mage players usually claim that they were winning but I don't believe the facts lead to this conclusion.
Certainly, you are playing well and you are surviving but we are told very early on how Kirkwall is the center of Templar power in the East and how Meredith holds the true power within the city. All of this suggests there is a great, great number of Templars in Kirkwall and its surroundings that she can call upon; too many even for Hawke to defeat. Remember, Hawke never defeats the Templars, they just let him/her go.
The corpses of mages that are always present; regardless of how skilled of a player you are; indicate that the situation was far from hopeful for the mages.

Therefore, Orsino; who always resented non-mages for taking away the freedom of mages in order to feel safe; finds himself in a situation where the person he hates the most in the world will kill him and then go sleep like a newborn child. That's when he snaps and decides to cast a spell not to save mages or win the battle but simply to punish Meredith and the city as a whole.

It was desperate, sure, but it's not like those lowly Circle mages were going to win the battle anyway.

He lost all his apprentices fighting the Qunari. Why didn't that get to him?

It's pretty clearly a gameplay contrivance (needz boss fight) on the story, like Meredith turning on non-mage Hawke.

This makes sense when you think about how, in the Templar ending, Orsino will do just that. Kill mages for no reason other than to punish Meredith and the city. He even says that he is well past caring when Hawke accuses him of proving Meredith right. At that point, both in the Mage and Templar endings, Orsino doesn't want to save mages, he doesn't want to win the battle, he doesn't want freedom. He just wants to kill those he hates.

Well, that's because he has pretty clearly already lost.

It actually makes sense in the pro-Templar path.

But in the pro-Mage path... not so much.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 23 novembre 2013 - 08:27 .

[BaronFonAphedron]

I actually thought a lot about Orsino, and made a conclusion that he was affected or even possessed by Despair Demon, who was sent by the Main Bad Guy of Inquisition. Thus, the mysterious villain corrupted both sides of the conflict and began the war, which divided and weakened humanity's strongest forces, and made Thedas extremely vulnerable to invasion.

Modifié par BaronFonAphedron, 23 novembre 2013 - 09:00 .

[SgtSteel91]

Does anyone support the Mages over the Templars because they don't want their sister to be killed in the Right of Annulment (assuming Bethany was kept alive and in the Circle)? Because that was my reasoning.

[Nightdragon8]

Akernis wrote...

I think that Maredith was somewhat justified in the fact that the red lyrium idol was literally poisoning her mind, and she was more insane than anything at this point.
But even so it still felt a bit akward.

Orsino's made no sense what so ever. If you side againt him I can kind of see why he would be driven to such desperate extremes. But if you side with him it felt really forced and unnecessary, suddenly out of the blue he just goes nuts and create a horrific blood magic ritual which ends up with him killing everyone he can indiscreminantly, templars, mages and allies alike. 

I really hope you don't mean "Justified" 

She can be "Forgiven" for her choices because of the red lyrium poisoning her mind. But she was not justified.

Basicly saying that it was justified that a druck killed a family in a car wreck, cause there is no one would would say that.

[Dave of Canada]

I don't get why people think the handful of mages in the Gallows can somehow kill every single Templar and Guard in Kirkwall, Orsino snapped because there was no hope of surviving. The only reason Hawke didn't end up dead is because of game mechanics and Cullen allows you to leave.

Don't get either why people seem to think it's perfectly justified that Meredith be given the crazy treatment but Orsino cannot.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 23 novembre 2013 - 11:08 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Varric's epilogue does say that many innocents were saved so many mages managed to escape. Again, I think the problem was that the gameplay made it seem like the mages were winning even if they weren't. They should have included more templars waves and more mage casualties so Orisino's descent into despair felt like it would have been more obvious. He already felt like the Champion and co were the only hope he had of surviving. If we saw some of his charges perish anyway, I think his abandoning of that hope would have felt less abrupt.

[Hazegurl]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

Does anyone support the Mages over the Templars because they don't want their sister to be killed in the Right of Annulment (assuming Bethany was kept alive and in the Circle)? Because that was my reasoning.

I side with the Templars even while Bethany is in the Circle. but I always save her.

[The Qun & the Damned]

Reaverwind wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

Maybe Orsino was just an insane a**hole the whole time?

Well, he was running around in that atrocious dress. 

How can you hate on dat dress? I thought it had a tasty vampire chique to say the least.

[Hellion Rex]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

Does anyone support the Mages over the Templars because they don't want their sister to be killed in the Right of Annulment (assuming Bethany was kept alive and in the Circle)? Because that was my reasoning.

I support the mages because I personally can sympathize with their lot in Thedas.

Modifié par eluvianix, 24 novembre 2013 - 12:00 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I sided with the mages because I figured it was wrong that for them to punished for somebody's else's terrorism. Even though most or many of the named mage npcs characters were villains or blood mages, I imagined logically there had to be a lot of innocent mages still in the Cirlce, but in truth Bethany was the only one I really cared about. Without Bethany, I have little to no emotional investment with the fate of mages in Kirkwall or the rest of Thedas for that matter. Even in the Last Straw I didn't feel a whole lot of emotion wrapped up in the choice aside from saving Bethany.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

I didn't really pick a side I was forced to choose the lesser of two evils and what both sides where doing no matter the reason was pretty evil. (I chose the mages)

[Dave of Canada]

Hazegurl wrote...

SgtSteel91 wrote...

Does anyone support the Mages over the Templars because they don't want their sister to be killed in the Right of Annulment (assuming Bethany was kept alive and in the Circle)? Because that was my reasoning.

I side with the Templars even while Bethany is in the Circle. but I always save her.

I have her executed, I'd like to think I'm sparing her the fate of being made tranquil.

[SgtSteel91]

eluvianix wrote...

SgtSteel91 wrote...

Does anyone support the Mages over the Templars because they don't want their sister to be killed in the Right of Annulment (assuming Bethany was kept alive and in the Circle)? Because that was my reasoning.

I support the mages because I personally can sympathize with their lot in Thedas.

I guess that's a secondary reason as well. To me, the Right of Annulment was called in retaliation to Anders blowing up the Chantry. The mages in the Gallows had nothing to do with Anders' stunt and they were all going to be wrongfully executed for crimes they didn't commit. Hell, I would have let the Templars parade around Anders' body so that everyone in Kirkwall would curse it, vent their anger out on it, whatever if it meant sparing Bethany and the Gallows Mages.

[Laughing_Man]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I don't get why people think the handful of mages in the Gallows can somehow kill every single Templar and Guard in Kirkwall, Orsino snapped because there was no hope of surviving. The only reason Hawke didn't end up dead is because of game mechanics and Cullen allows you to leave.

Don't get either why people seem to think it's perfectly justified that Meredith be given the crazy treatment but Orsino cannot.

Also @ Mister JB, regarding the tactical situation.

The mages lost mainly because they were handed the idiot ball by the writers.

If you have a fortified position in a high ground and superior firepower, you don't wait until your enemies close to melee range to wave your staff helplessly or throw a spirit bolt, but rather you block every enterance, take positions on a higher ground, and rain fireballs on your enemy.

And if somehow the Templars will manage to nullify a rain of fire balls, there is no need to become a reaper to stop them, you simply order every mage to use some of their own blood to attack the templars directly.

The Mages lost because the story as Mr. Gaider wrote it required that they lose.
Not because it was inevitable, far from it.

But the truth is, that the story as it was written, pulls the rug from under the chantry's justifications for it's magic policy. Because if despite all the blood-magic and reaperised abominations canon claims that the mages are fighting a losing battle, then maybe magic is not as dangerous as it was portrayed.

You can't have it both ways.

Regarding Meredith's insanity - I wasn't very thrilled by it, and in any case I never thought of it as a proof for Templars being evil. Orsino's madness however, was inserted with the rather obvious purpose of casting more shadow and suspicion on mages.

Modifié par TheRedVipress, 24 novembre 2013 - 07:20 .

[Hellion Rex]

TheRedVipress wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

I don't get why people think the handful of mages in the Gallows can somehow kill every single Templar and Guard in Kirkwall, Orsino snapped because there was no hope of surviving. The only reason Hawke didn't end up dead is because of game mechanics and Cullen allows you to leave.

Don't get either why people seem to think it's perfectly justified that Meredith be given the crazy treatment but Orsino cannot.

Also @ Mister JB, regarding the tactical situation.

The mages lost mainly because they were handed the idiot ball by the writers.

If you have a fortified position in a high ground and superior firepower, you don't wait until your enemies close to melee range to wave your staff helplessly or throw a spirit bolt, but rather you block every enterance, take positions on a higher ground, and rain fireballs on your enemy.

And if somehow the Templars will manage to nullify a rain of fire balls, there is no need to become a reaper to stop them, you simply order every mage to use some of their own blood to attack the templars directly.

The Mages lost because the story as Mr. Gaider wrote it required that they lose.
Not because it was inevitable, far from it.

But the truth is, that the story as it was written, pulls the rug from under the chantry's justifications for it's magic policy. Because if despite all the blood-magic and reaperised abominations canon claims that the mages are fighting a losing battle, then maybe magic is not as dangerous as it was portrayed.

You can't have it both ways.

Regarding Meredith's insanity - I wasn't very thrilled by it, and in any case I never thought of it as a proof for Templars being evil. Orsino's madness however, was inserted with the rather obvious purpose of casting more shadow and suspicion on mages.

I agree with the majority of this, except for the tactics portion that is bolded. The mages were barely given any warning it would seem to Meredith's proclamation of Annulment. Orsino would probably have barely enough time to warn everyone what was going on, never mind have time to set up defenses or have them strategically defend the Circle. Add in the fact that most were probably scared to death and/or in disbelief, and that might better explain why any other possible contingency plans went to hell.

Modifié par eluvianix, 24 novembre 2013 - 07:24 .

[Wulfram]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I don't get why people think the handful of mages in the Gallows can somehow kill every single Templar and Guard in Kirkwall, Orsino snapped because there was no hope of surviving. The only reason Hawke didn't end up dead is because of game mechanics and Cullen allows you to leave.

Because the PC always wins is the default assumptions.  And because the fight before Orsino's transformation is ludicrously easy.  Though I broadly agree with your assessment of the actual situation.

Maybe they should have had the fight before the transformation be an endless series of escalating waves which ends when the party loses.

Don't get either why people seem to think it's perfectly justified that Meredith be given the crazy treatment but Orsino cannot.

Her craziness was established earlier in the game, at least somewhat - potentially quite strongly if you give her support at the start of act 3.  Orsino's basically comes out of nowhere.

[Hellion Rex]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

SgtSteel91 wrote...

Does anyone support the Mages over the Templars because they don't want their sister to be killed in the Right of Annulment (assuming Bethany was kept alive and in the Circle)? Because that was my reasoning.

I support the mages because I personally can sympathize with their lot in Thedas.

I guess that's a secondary reason as well. To me, the Right of Annulment was called in retaliation to Anders blowing up the Chantry. The mages in the Gallows had nothing to do with Anders' stunt and they were all going to be wrongfully executed for crimes they didn't commit. Hell, I would have let the Templars parade around Anders' body so that everyone in Kirkwall would curse it, vent their anger out on it, whatever if it meant sparing Bethany and the Gallows Mages.

I can certainly agree with that idea. However, I kept Anders alive only in response to what Meredith planned to do. If she was going to raze the Circle to the ground, I would be d*mned if Anders was not going to help try to save the Circle mages he had condemned.