144 réponses à ce sujet

[Obadiah]

The ending is further evidence of the Catalyst's conclusion of the inevitable destruction of all Organics.

Consider, the Reapers themselves are an example of the harsh judgements or decisions that AI are capable of making, and the power they can harness to implement those decisions. The Crucible weapon is an example of the kind of retaliation that power could bring, an anti-AI/tech weapon that could be fired on a galactic scale that could wipe out all AI. The Crucible fired in Destroy is essentially Organics doing to AI the thing that the Catalyst believes AI will do to Organics.

In terms of escalation, the Mass Effect 3 climax puts the MEU one step away from the AI building something similar, and eventually launching it on Organics.

Modifié par Obadiah, 25 novembre 2013 - 10:55 .

[Rotward]

Not to worry, even if you chose destroy, synthesis happens before ai wipe out organics forever. Synthesis is inevitable. Synthesis is absolute. Synthesis is all. Join us...

one of us... one of us... one of us...

[Rasofe]

I'm a little sleepy, could you rephrase that, or are you saying that destroy leads to AI creating a weapon that can destroy all organics?
I think we call that weapon Reapers...

[AlexMBrennan]

Consider, the Reapers themselves are an example of the harsh judgements or decisions that AI are capable of making, and the power they can harness to implement those decisions.

Did the Reapers wipe out all life in the galaxy? No, they did the exact opposite - culling only technologically advanced species to make sure that more primitive species get to develop.

In terms of escalation, the Mass Effect 3 climax puts the MEU one step away from the AI building something similar, and eventually launching it on Organics.

Nope - that's like saying "The Americans developed nuclear weapons, therefore **** Germany was one step away from developing nuclear weapons"; sure, it may give them an incentive to try but that doesn't mean that it's easy or indeed possible.

[SwobyJ]

It'll be fine.

[Rasofe]

I guess that's just the way that it is...
Don't bother none.
Wont help at all to worry about it.

[Rasofe]

StreetMagic wrote...

The singularity is a moment when you figure out/resolve a problem. Not when you succumb to a problem necessarily. Nothing is inevitable. Destroy is considered a solution and state of mind. Not just a band-aid.

Take our own era, for example. We are living in a singularity of sorts with nuclear technology. We haven't fully addressed what it means/whether to eradicate it/co-exist with it, etc.. But sooner or later, humanity gives an answer. Or dies.

SwobyJ wrote...

It'll be fine.

[Killdren88]

I'd rather we wipe of the Reapers and let Evolution do it's thing. If it is inevitable, we will get to it naturally. Not forced to it as a desperate act in a hopeless war

[Obadiah]

@AlexMBrennan Think US/Russia and the arms race. There is an alliance between Synthetics and Organics because of the shared Reaper threat (Allies in WWII), but how long do you really expect that to last? I'm not picking sides or saying who will fire first because it doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is that the peace won't last because Organics need slave/shackled AI. Even if the Getha nd EDI were allowed freedom, Organics would still build more slave AIs that would rebel, and the WMD bar has now been set at Crucible.

@Killdren88 It's all evolution - the Reapers, the Alliance, the cycle, whatever Shep's choice, evolution doesn't stop.

@StreetMagic The Crucible indicates a lot of things. I'm just pointing out that Organics now have a weapon that can destroy all AI. If the weapon, along capability to create the weapon, are not destroyed (and that capability won't be), Synthetics would now seek something similar to attain a balance of power.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Obadiah wrote...

@AlexMBrennan Think US/Russia and the arms race. There is an alliance between Synthetics and Organics because of the shared Reaper threat (Allies in WWII), but how long do you really expect that to last? I'm not picking sides or saying who will fire first because it doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is that the peace won't last because Organics need slave/shackled AI. Even if the Getha nd EDI were allowed freedom, Organics would still build more slave AIs that would rebel, and the WMD bar has now been set at Crucible.

@Killdren88 It's all evolution - the Reapers, the Alliance, the cycle, whatever Shep's choice, evolution doesn't stop.

@StreetMagic The Crucible indicates a lot of things. I'm just pointing out that Organics now have a weapon that can destroy all AI. If the weapon, along capability to create the weapon, are not destroyed (and that capability won't be), Synthetics would now seek something similar to attain a balance of power.

So you're saying that synthetics will build their own Citadel Mk2 and their own Crucible Mk2 to wipe out all organic life?

This obviously means we have to build a new Citadel Mk3 and an even better Crucible Mk3 that annihilates the entire galaxy and have it joined and set so that if either side sets off theirs it will set off this thing. Mutually Assured Destruction will ensure peace. It's a doomsday device. A failsafe. Nothing could possibly go wrong. 

[ImaginaryMatter]

I don't really think anything conclusive can be said about the Crucible. We don't know much about it's origins, how it was modified over the cycles, who it's creators were, why it was made, what its original purpose was; not even it's exact function is clear.

[KaiserShep]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

I don't really think anything conclusive can be said about the Crucible. We don't know much about it's origins, how it was modified over the cycles, who it's creators were, why it was made, what its original purpose was; not even it's exact function is clear.

Let's not forget that in an optimal playthrough, the geth also assist in its construction, on top of no one being certain that it has the capability to do anything other than deal with the reapers themselves. Were they tricked? Were they also too stupid to figure it out? No one can be certain. In the end, the only thing the AI's have to go on is whatever is kept on record for future generations to read about. For all they know, the synthetics could have been one of the major casualties of the reaper war, even though they fought alongside their own creators, which would certainly be of note for historical record.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 23 novembre 2013 - 06:19 .

[Obadiah]

The Catalyst says that it is trying to stop this inevitable conflict between Synthetics and Organics that will wipe out all Organics, and that it has failed.

Because of its actions, Organics created the Crucible, a WMD against Synthetics, and it happened in spite of imposed cycles of extinction. The existence of the fully built and functioning Crucible is evidence that no one being or race need exist or decide to build it, the mere fact that there are sentient Organics under threat by Synthetics enabled a weapon of this type's eventual construction.

In failure the Catalyst, the Reapers, and the Crucible have in fact become part of the progression and escalation to the inevitable conflict.
_________________________________________________________

Anyway, this thread wasn't supposed to be about the final decison, but since people brought it up, the Catalyst says, "We must find a new solution." The Catalyst obviously has a preference in Synthesis, but it doesn't know what will stop the inevitable conflict. As many have pointed out already, the Catalyst was wrong about it's own Reaper solution, and has already failed at least once in implementing Synthesis. It is obviously fallible.

Modifié par Obadiah, 23 novembre 2013 - 07:25 .

[ImaginaryMatter]

For all we know the Crucible could have been built by an AI intelligence for the purposes of terraforming planets.

[Rasofe]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

@AlexMBrennan Think US/Russia and the arms race. There is an alliance between Synthetics and Organics because of the shared Reaper threat (Allies in WWII), but how long do you really expect that to last? I'm not picking sides or saying who will fire first because it doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is that the peace won't last because Organics need slave/shackled AI. Even if the Getha nd EDI were allowed freedom, Organics would still build more slave AIs that would rebel, and the WMD bar has now been set at Crucible.

@Killdren88 It's all evolution - the Reapers, the Alliance, the cycle, whatever Shep's choice, evolution doesn't stop.

@StreetMagic The Crucible indicates a lot of things. I'm just pointing out that Organics now have a weapon that can destroy all AI. If the weapon, along capability to create the weapon, are not destroyed (and that capability won't be), Synthetics would now seek something similar to attain a balance of power.

So you're saying that synthetics will build their own Citadel Mk2 and their own Crucible Mk2 to wipe out all organic life?

This obviously means we have to build a new Citadel Mk3 and an even better Crucible Mk3 that annihilates the entire galaxy and have it joined and set so that if either side sets off theirs it will set off this thing. Mutually Assured Destruction will ensure peace. It's a doomsday device. A failsafe. Nothing could possibly go wrong. 

With a ratio of ten females to each male the human race can replenish its numbers.
OT: If the Spiral Coils theory is correct, then it's very feasable that the cycles have led to the creation of a cycle where synthetics and organics simply don't have to fight.

Modifié par Rasofe, 23 novembre 2013 - 09:44 .

[Reorte]

There's nothing about Synthetic - Oraganic conflict that couldn't equally be applied to Organic - Organic conflict, so if you accept any of the Catalyst's arguments at all you should go and wipe out every other organic species before if does the same to you.

[Obadiah]

StreetMagic wrote...

Yes, but why are you so willing to accept what it says is inevitable? That's my point.
...

Because the problem it stated makes sense, and I thought it made sense before Leviathan corobarated its story. Organics need Synthetics to perfect themselves, but the AI Sythethics will evolve, and this wil lead to conflict. This doesn't require a Singularity, just a rebellion that will keep recurring.

The MEU, the machines rebelled in the case of the Geth, the Citadel AI, and EDI. The machines rebelled in the Protheans time, and if there was time, I'm sure the Catalyst would inundate us with examples of it happening during Leviathan's time, and over the cycles. The Catalyst is a million year old machine, do you think if Shepard had time to have an argument with it that it would lose based on the Geth and the Decision Chamber, or that it would bring out millions of years of examples, trends, and data to back up its prediction?

Peace between the Quarians and the Geth happens in one single instance of just the right combination of Organics and Synthetics (including the Reapers) in place, and that's great. But that's after an initial war where the Quarians were almost completely wiped out and 300 years of isolation, and one faction of them decidiing to help the Reapers. Even with AI illegal in Citadel space, Organics are still creating them as slaves, and they will rebel again.

That AI would decide at some point to wipe out all Organics, only requires that they make that decision once and successfully implement it, and as I said in the first post,  the Reapers are an example of the kind of decision AI are capable of making and the power AI they can leverage. And with the Crucible, we already have one side in this conflict  that has created a weapon to the annihilate the other.

@Reorte The difference is in the NEED of Organics for Synthetics to perfect themselves, or to put in other terms, the need for Organics to have Synthetics as slaves.

Modifié par Obadiah, 23 novembre 2013 - 12:39 .

[Reorte]

Anything sufficiently powerful, organic or synthetic, could try to wipe out all other forms of life. You need a convincing motivation for doing so.

There's no need for organics to have synthetics as slaves, and even if they try to do so then it's a huge leap from killing off those enslaving them to wiping out all organic life, presumably down to the last bacterium. If you get really, really capable AIs then IMO something like Iain Banks' Culture is more likely.

[Obadiah]

Reorte wrote...
...
it's a huge leap from killing off those enslaving them to wiping out all organic life, presumably down to the last bacterium.
...

That's the point of the thread. The Crucible is such an example of a weapon killing all AI instead of just killing our enemy. Its not really that big a leap to see AI creating a similar weapon at some point.

Modifié par Obadiah, 23 novembre 2013 - 12:45 .

[Rasofe]

Well, just because you think that the Catalysts statement that the machnies will always rebel against their creators despite the progressively less intense/ruthless liberations of synthetics (interpolate a curve between Harbinger, Zha'til, Geth and EDI, then extrapolate into the post Reaper future) doesn't actually make it true.
This isn't an escalation. It's clearly a diffusion. Synthetic-Organic relations have become less and less of an issue either because organics have evolved to the point where they can effectively destroy and control synthetics, or because both sides have become much less prejudiced against each other with each coil of the spiral. It's an unintended side-effect of the Reaper Harvest, but it's what happened. The Catalysts "answer" to the problem is akin to introducing rabbits to Australia - it's an evolutionary cataclysm.