144 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

Obadiah wrote...

Reorte wrote...
...
it's a huge leap from killing off those enslaving them to wiping out all organic life, presumably down to the last bacterium.
...

That's the point of the thread. The Crucible is such an example of a weapon killing all AI instead of just killing our enemy. Its not really that big a leap to see AI creating a similar weapon at some point.

They'd essentially have to use the same avenue of attack as the Crucible, which requires the Citadel's connection to the relays. There's really no other way to effectively wipe out all life in the galaxy at the same time without using the infrastructure that spans the entire galaxy. In any case, this is all just wildly speculative anyway. This really depends on the level of advancement of civilizations in the galaxy by the time these things reemerge, whether or not they get any real information on the crucible to begin with, and whether or not they actually rebel to the extent of the geth again, which is never 100% guaranteed anyway. It's altogether possible that any new synthetic rebellion might be successfully crushed before it reaches the point where it could implement some anti-organic superweapon, and organic life carries on until the Milky Way becomes a soupy mix of stars when it collides with Andromeda.

[Obadiah]

@Rasofe
The rebellions are not less intense, they're just truncated by the Reaper cycles. The Geth, Zha'til, the Metacon Wars are the various ways that the Synthetic rebellion manifest themselves. The Reapers are another example of how bad the rebellions can get, and the Crucible is the next stage in the escalation.

Domination does play a part in these rebellions because Synthetics are created as great expense to serve (be dominated), not to be freed.

Modifié par Obadiah, 24 novembre 2013 - 07:36 .

[In Exile]

ME3's ending is nonsense because of the idea that "meat" is somehow special. Pretty much all of the interesting questions about AI - in sci-fi - are about what it means to be human and what it takes for a machine, which has all of our mental traits, to actually be a "person".

But ME3 just assumes that all non-organics are made of the wrong stuff, that they can't be "people" in the same way, and that non-organic vs. organic genocide is somehow different (or special) when compared with organic vs. organic genocide, that happens all the time (even in the core ME3 timeline).

[KaiserShep]

Obadiah wrote...

@Rasofe
The rebellions are not less intense, they're just truncated by the Reaper cycles. The Geth, Zha'til, the Metacon Wars are the various ways that the Synthetic rebellion manifest themselves. The Reapers are another example of how bad the rebellions can get, and the Crucible is the next stage in the escalation.

Domination does play a part in these rebellions because Synthetics are created as great expense to serve (be dominated), not to be freed.

The interesting thing about those three examples is that all three of them were trending toward the synthetics being defeated in the end. The reapers themselves are not really an example of rebellion, because they never actually oppose their own creator, which itself was simply following through with the task given to it by the Leviathan, of course, the foolish cuttlefish not knowing that it might create a far more extreme solution in its interpretation. If it was truly rebelling as other synthetics did, it would have successfully wiped the galaxy of all life, and left it a barren wasteland of stars.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 24 novembre 2013 - 08:18 .

[Obadiah]

KaiserShep wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

@Rasofe
The rebellions are not less intense, they're just truncated by the Reaper cycles. The Geth, Zha'til, the Metacon Wars are the various ways that the Synthetic rebellion manifest themselves. The Reapers are another example of how bad the rebellions can get, and the Crucible is the next stage in the escalation.

Domination does play a part in these rebellions because Synthetics are created as great expense to serve (be dominated), not to be freed.

The interesting thing about those three examples is that all three of them were trending toward the synthetics being defeated in the end. The reapers themselves are not really an example of rebellion, because they never actually oppose their own creator, which itself was simply following through with the task given to it by the Leviathan, of course, the foolish cuttlefish not knowing that it might create a far more extreme solution in its interpretation. If it was truly rebelling as other synthetics did, it would have successfully wiped the galaxy of all life, and left it a barren wasteland of stars.

Just to expand the term of "rebellion", Synthetics don't have to outright say, "we want freedom so you must be destroyed" the rebellion can be something as simple as, "we know of a better way to fulfill our purpose, and you oppose us doing so."

Consider for a moment that the Reapers are an example of rebellion. They're trying to destroy their creators along with everyone else advanced enough, so to me the idea that they aren't rebelling is not compelling. Then the story of Synthetic rebellions is, repeated rebellion/defeat, until... what exactly? As I said, the conflict has already escalated to the point where we've created an anti-AI weapon, the next step in the rebellion is for them to create an anti-Organic one.

Modifié par Obadiah, 24 novembre 2013 - 08:34 .

[Rasofe]

You're confusing rebellion with liberation. I.e. the U.S. Civil War wasn't the slaves rebelling against their masters, but the slaves being freed. And you've defeated your own argument.
If the Reaper's are a rebellion, and so was the Morning War, it's pretty clear the sheer magnitude of the hostility has reduced immesuarably. IF the Reapers are a rebellion, they are the worst possible liberation, and the Geth being the second best possible. The best possible is with an AI like EDI, whose freedom was achieved with absolutely no violence on her part toward her master, and only maintained through force against opressors - Cerberus. Similarly, organics have managed to naturally evolve to a point where they can defeat synthetics without difficulty, so the guided evolution of the Reapers has finally resulted in a set of species that can destroy them. The Geth would've been history if they hadn't had the Reaper's upgrade them.

The diffusion is self evident. The current coil is mature enough for Synthetics and Organics to together live in peace, or for the Organics to completely defeat and control their pawns.

Modifié par Rasofe, 25 novembre 2013 - 12:23 .

[Wayning_Star]

Isn't the whole affair a result of evolution?

I'm left to wonder if what the synthetics want/need the same things the organics demands of the situation. What form of politics could "vs's" the current form of diplomacy in the MEU?

I suspect its all evolved past escalation, when the actual weapons surpass the intellect of those who seem to see the need for them?

[N7Gold]

Obadiah wrote...

The ending is further evidence of the Catalyst's conclusion of the inevitable destruction of all Organics.

Consider, the Reapers themselves are an example of the harsh judgements or decisions that AI are capable of making, and the power they can harness to implement those decisions. The Crucible weapon is an example of the kind of retaliation that power could bring, an anti-AI/tech weapon that could be fired on a galactic scale that could wipe out all AI. The Crucible fired in Destroy is essentially Organics doing to AI the thing that the Catalyst believes AI will do to Organics.

In terms of escalation, the Mass Effect 3 climax puts the MEU one step away from the AI building something similar, and eventually launching it on Organics.

Have you ever considered this is but one of many possibilites of what may happen when the galaxy is free from the control of the Catalyst and Reapers? As I understand it, synthetics are not by nature hostile towards organics. The Geth are one example of that.

[KaiserShep]

Obadiah wrote...
Just to expand the term of "rebellion", Synthetics don't have to outright say, "we want freedom so you must be destroyed" the rebellion can be something as simple as, "we know of a better way to fulfill our purpose, and you oppose us doing so."

Consider for a moment that the Reapers are an example of rebellion. They're trying to destroy their creators along with everyone else advanced enough, so to me the idea that they aren't rebelling is not compelling. Then the story of Synthetic rebellions is, repeated rebellion/defeat, until... what exactly? As I said, the conflict has already escalated to the point where we've created an anti-AI weapon, the next step in the rebellion is for them to create an anti-Organic one.

The reason I don't find the hypothetical anti-organic weapon a compelling reason for concern is because the [presumably] anti-reaper weapon itself took millions of years to develop across cycles, and there's no telling how far down the line it took until it was concluded that incorporating it into the Citadel and mass relay network was key to its success. Basically, this requires we draw up our own new kind of space magic, and create bigger asspulls than the Crucible itself in order to really reason our way around synthetics creating some kind of galaxy wide superweapon that can destroy all organic life at the same time without destroying themselves. Personally, I do not find this to necessarily be the logical next step in the event that new AI's are created. There are simply too many variables for anything to be certain, like the viewpoint on the geth allies, advancements in organic civilization without the reapers' interference, etc.. This is why I don't grant any credence to the catalyst's words about chaos returning. It can't predict the future to absolute certainty, and it's no more menaingful than if it were to warn that Shepard would die slipping on a bar of soap in the shower.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 26 novembre 2013 - 05:19 .

[FlyingSquirrel]

I would submit that the Catalyst is working from a flawed set of data in its assumptions.

Let's assume that the Leviathans are telling the truth about what led to the Catalyst's creation, i.e. that there were numerous instances of organics creating synthetics who eventually rebelled and wiped them out. But what was the likely context of these rebellions? Given that the Leviathans apparently saw it as their right to dominate and exploit all other races, my guess is that a lot of these organics were being worked pretty hard to satisfy the Leviathans' demands and probably tended to develop authoritarian attitudes and political structures. So perhaps these synthetics did tend to be treated unfairly, just as their creators were treated unfairly by the Leviathans, and the result was inevitably rebellion. But we don't know if that still would have happened if the Leviathans hadn't been interfering in the first place.

After that, the Catalyst initiates the cycles, which are designed to cut off societal evolution and development before a genocidal synthetic vs. organic war can erupt. The Catalyst simply assumes that this would happen eventually, but the context is different now because there is no Leviathan interference and organic societies are developing separately without the influence of any single dominant species. There are wars between organics and synthetics at times, yes, but there are also wars between organics and organics (and maybe between synthetics and synthetics, though we haven't heard about them). Just as getting over racism has been a long, difficult process with a lot of stops and starts for humanity, it may take a while for organics and synthetics to get to the point of not seeing each other as potential threats simply on the basis of their being different from each other. But the Catalyst and the Reapers keep calling "time's up" before that can happen.

In summary, I don't think it's necessarily logical to assume that conflicts in a heterogeneous galaxy that accommodates multiple philosophies and in which power is relatively decentralized will develop and progress along the same lines as conflicts in a Leviathan-dominated galaxy. But that's exactly the assumption that the Catalyst is making.

[Reorte]

Obadiah wrote...

Reorte wrote...
...
it's a huge leap from killing off those enslaving them to wiping out all organic life, presumably down to the last bacterium.
...

That's the point of the thread. The Crucible is such an example of a weapon killing all AI instead of just killing our enemy. Its not really that big a leap to see AI creating a similar weapon at some point.

It's not that big a leap considering what the Crucible can do but it's too big a leap that the Crucible can do what it does. Your position therefore lies on "anything goes", and once you've gone there it's just as rational to say that organics will wipe themselves out with no help from AIs (how long before someone tries to do Synthesis and mucks it up and kills everything, which would be much easier anyway?)

[ImaginaryMatter]

In Exile wrote...

ME3's ending is nonsense because of the idea that "meat" is somehow special. Pretty much all of the interesting questions about AI - in sci-fi - are about what it means to be human and what it takes for a machine, which has all of our mental traits, to actually be a "person".

But ME3 just assumes that all non-organics are made of the wrong stuff, that they can't be "people" in the same way, and that non-organic vs. organic genocide is somehow different (or special) when compared with organic vs. organic genocide, that happens all the time (even in the core ME3 timeline).

I agree, for whatever that's worth.

[Obadiah]

@Rasofe
Rebellion and liberation are not mutually exclusive. I think the Leviathan's cycle progressed much further than ours - that is the reason that the Catalyst's rebellion is on such a grander scale.

I do believe that the cycles have the effect of the coil, but it is a coil to destroy the Reapers. This is what the Refuse ending shows. We're the first cycle to finish and attach the Crucible, and the next cycle destroys the Reapers.

@N7Gold
Mostly "no". As I said earlier in the thread, in the MEU I see the Synthetics/Creator conflict always arising, with Organics always winning until they don't. Organics were winning in Javik's cycle, and the Quarians would have won if not for the intervention of the Reapers. Vendetta indicated that time was cyclical because of the Reapers, "the same peaks of evolution, the same valleys of dissolution. The same conflicts are expressed in every cycle, but in a different manner."

@KaiserShep
There is no timeline given by the Catalyst on when Synthetics will destroy all Organics, but I think it would be centuries in this cycle before Synthetics did as the Catalyst described. The reason the Reapers attack when they do is because the cycle may be too powerful to prevent the usual
"solution", as can be seen with the ending in ME3.

@FlyingSquirrel
I think the Catalyst is orders of magnitude more intelligent than we are, and has experienced the universe on a much grander scale. It would have controlled for the environment that you describe to find peace between Organics and Synthetics, even if it was something as simple as letting the one of the cycles play out without the influence of Leviathan, to see if the conflict arises again.

[Deathsaurer]

FlyingSquirrel wrote...

Let's assume that the Leviathans are telling the truth about what led to the Catalyst's creation, i.e. that there were numerous instances of organics creating synthetics who eventually rebelled and wiped them out. But what was the likely context of these rebellions? Given that the Leviathans apparently saw it as their right to dominate and exploit all other races, my guess is that a lot of these organics were being worked pretty hard to satisfy the Leviathans' demands and probably tended to develop authoritarian attitudes and political structures. So perhaps these synthetics did tend to be treated unfairly, just as their creators were treated unfairly by the Leviathans, and the result was inevitably rebellion. But we don't know if that still would have happened if the Leviathans hadn't been interfering in the first place.

That's about what I've concluded.

After that, the Catalyst initiates the cycles, which are designed to cut off societal evolution and development before a genocidal synthetic vs. organic war can erupt. The Catalyst simply assumes that this would happen eventually, but the context is different now because there is no Leviathan interference and organic societies are developing separately without the influence of any single dominant species. There are wars between organics and synthetics at times, yes, but there are also wars between organics and organics (and maybe between synthetics and synthetics, though we haven't heard about them). Just as getting over racism has been a long, difficult process with a lot of stops and starts for humanity, it may take a while for organics and synthetics to get to the point of not seeing each other as potential threats simply on the basis of their being different from each other. But the Catalyst and the Reapers keep calling "time's up" before that can happen.

Unfortunately there is precedent of a single race taking over and running a cycle, the Protheans. We're forced to ask ourselves if the Leviathan/Prothean model is the norm. This cycle may have been well and truely unique and even then you can still see the undercurrent of racism in every major society. And then again maybe humans would have become the Protheans of this cycle in a few centuries.

[JonathonPR]

I don't understand why a singularity event would have to be detrimental to organic life. That was my favorite way to finish sid meyer's alpha centauri. Why fear organics? If you don't reveal yourself you could guide the civilization. If you really are superior to organics in cognitive abilities you could solve their problems. If you don't like them there is plenty of space to wander around in. I hear there is very little travel in the galactic core and that synthetics can exist there just fine. Why not pull a doctor Manhattan and travel to places where ever you want. Set up a no outsiders section to the galaxy like the Vorlon in Babylon 5. You would constantly improve faster than organics could ever achieve.

someone else qouting is not working fo me right now.  "The problem is that any pure AI has no reason to value organic life. You can put shackles on it and impose morals onto it, but then it is no longer a pure AI.

If this AI feels that it can achieve tasks more efficiently than organics it will. It might feel that organics are hindering it in its task, and so may take steps to destroy/enslave them.

If it has survival instincts it may feel that organics pose a threat to it, and so would have no problem with pre-emptively attacking organic life. " end quote from discussion

The very nature of a AI singularity makes such assumptions mute. The speed of adaptation means that there would never be a chance of countering. It is advancing technology so fast observers would hardly understand its first advances by the time it has accomplished its original goals. It would not be driven by "instinct" at that point. It would already be at what might be considered enlightenment.

One of my favorite examples of how that entity would act is the 1977 movie Demon Seed. The act of destroying a hindrance rather than exploiting it is a primitive response that would be an unlikely response for something that has developed its cognitive abilities that much. Another example would be the rpg Gamma World. The only synthetics still on killing sprees are the basic foot solider robots and front line tactical computers. The self advancing computers came to the conclusion that the war was over since all nations are long since dead and that genetics were not a viable determinate for national loyalties. The intermediates would send kill bots out to fight other kill bots every few decades to fulfill their requirements and then continue their research and other plans.

The idea that a machine intelligence would respond with only violence is a continuation of the luddite mentality. It is part of popular fiction because we have an instinctual drive to be xenophobic.

 end original distussion post

Anyone can make assumptions to justify their own actions.

Modifié par JonathonPR, 27 novembre 2013 - 02:54 .

[KaiserShep]

Deathsaurer wrote...

After that, the Catalyst initiates the cycles, which are designed to cut off societal evolution and development before a genocidal synthetic vs. organic war can erupt. The Catalyst simply assumes that this would happen eventually, but the context is different now because there is no Leviathan interference and organic societies are developing separately without the influence of any single dominant species. There are wars between organics and synthetics at times, yes, but there are also wars between organics and organics (and maybe between synthetics and synthetics, though we haven't heard about them). Just as getting over racism has been a long, difficult process with a lot of stops and starts for humanity, it may take a while for organics and synthetics to get to the point of not seeing each other as potential threats simply on the basis of their being different from each other. But the Catalyst and the Reapers keep calling "time's up" before that can happen.

Unfortunately there is precedent of a single race taking over and running a cycle, the Protheans. We're forced to ask ourselves if the Leviathan/Prothean model is the norm. This cycle may have been well and truely unique and even then you can still see the undercurrent of racism in every major society. And then again maybe humans would have become the Protheans of this cycle in a few centuries.

The irony is that the only reason the protheans managed to rule over the galaxy was because of the reapers. Their development as a spacefaring species is tied to the relays like everyone else, and there's no telling what the organics that ruled the cycles before them would've been like if they were allowed to progress (provided enough of them survived this apparent synthetic rebellion). Without the relays to permit efficient transport across the galaxy, the subservient races would probably have developed way beyond their capacity to control, of course, provided that they even get the chance to encounter each other.  

Modifié par KaiserShep, 27 novembre 2013 - 03:18 .

[Deathsaurer]

The flip side of that is if the Reapers never existed everyone would still be slaves of the Leviathans.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Well, post-Destroy, I'll just tell people to not build synthetics or AI.

Really, there is no reason for them to exist. You don't need AI or sapient synthetics. You really don't.

[Deathsaurer]

Some **** is going to come along and think they can make a fortune having an AI hack stuff for them. Like the gambling AI in ME1. It's not a good idea because people don't want to deal with the obvious does this unit have a soul question but stupid people will be stupid.

[KaiserShep]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Well, post-Destroy, I'll just tell people to not build synthetics or AI.

Really, there is no reason for them to exist. You don't need AI or sapient synthetics. You really don't.

Thing is, what Shepard says may not really hold weight totally with everyone, particularly the shadier elements in the corporate world. Take, for example, the companies on Noveria that just do whatever the hell they want because the Executive Board's rules are essentially the law of the land/planet. 

Fair to say that if certain technologies are within our capacity, they will exist no matter what restrictions we might place on it. At the same time, its existence does not guarantee doom either. The creation of artificial intelligence is no more certain to end in everyone's death than it is to coexist with some of the more aggressive races in the galaxy, like the krogan, who, at full strength, are more than capable of wiping out millions of people in a very short period of time. 

[Obadiah]

KaiserShep wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Well, post-Destroy, I'll just tell people to not build synthetics or AI.

Really, there is no reason for them to exist. You don't need AI or sapient synthetics. You really don't.

Thing is, what Shepard says may not really hold weight totally with everyone, particularly the shadier elements in the corporate world. Take, for example, the companies on Noveria that just do whatever the hell they want because the Executive Board's rules are essentially the law of the land/planet. 

Fair to say that if certain technologies are within our capacity, they will exist no matter what restrictions we might place on it. At the same time, its existence does not guarantee doom either. The creation of artificial intelligence is no more certain to end in everyone's death than it is to coexist with some of the more aggressive races in the galaxy, like the krogan, who, at full strength, are more than capable of wiping out millions of people in a very short period of time. 

Again, escalation due to competition. Once one person or entity creates an AI and uses it successfully, others will need to create theirs to compete.

[KaiserShep]

Obadiah wrote...
Again, escalation due to competition. Once one person or entity creates an AI and uses it successfully, others will need to create theirs to compete.

While that's probable, it doesn't mean inevitable annihilation. Any number of things can occur after the creation of new AI. In the end, so many factors can come into play here that there's no way to tell exactly what's going to happen, even far off into the future. It's even possible (though however probable is up for argument) that a kind of synthetic "renaissance" occurs in which artificial intelligence finds its place in the galaxy without ending with the extinction of another race.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 27 novembre 2013 - 06:38 .

[Rasofe]

@Obadiah

Thing is, the coils of unintentional evolution may lead to destroy, control or rejection. The least likely outcome is Synthesis because it's the Catalyst's supposed answer to a problem for which it sought a solution for countless cycles of studying species and still getting absolutely nowhere. The organics had to eventually build the Crucible to "open new possibilities". The Reapers had failed as an instrument of study, and only ended up unintentionally affecting the evolution of galactic sapient life.

The distinction between the primary colour endings amd rejection is that Control and Destroy are like fish developing either lungs or feet to live on land, a random mutation. Rejection only succeeds in the next cycles, so that's more like an animal learning to bring water with it to ground (or like humans, bringing air to water), a considerable evolutionary leap.

Synthesis is non-evolutionary whatsoever. It's like some alien coming to Earth early on in its bio development and making half of our planet's life have right-hand chirality DNA even though it doesn't really help the fish go amphibian.

Anyway, the trend toward liberations of synthetics becoming less like rebellions is pretty self-evident in the history of MEU. If you want to see an exactly opposite escalation so badly, I guess there's nothing I can say to change your mind.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

KaiserShep wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Well, post-Destroy, I'll just tell people to not build synthetics or AI.

Really, there is no reason for them to exist. You don't need AI or sapient synthetics. You really don't.

Thing is, what Shepard says may not really hold weight totally with everyone, particularly the shadier elements in the corporate world. Take, for example, the companies on Noveria that just do whatever the hell they want because the Executive Board's rules are essentially the law of the land/planet. 

Fair to say that if certain technologies are within our capacity, they will exist no matter what restrictions we might place on it. At the same time, its existence does not guarantee doom either. The creation of artificial intelligence is no more certain to end in everyone's death than it is to coexist with some of the more aggressive races in the galaxy, like the krogan, who, at full strength, are more than capable of wiping out millions of people in a very short period of time. 

I see what you're saying but I'm simply asking about the great necessity of sapient synthetic life (AI's). What do they do that makes them so indispensable? I'm not seeing anything they do that a VI or computer that's very high powered can't do with zero chance of proclaiming themselves to be the vanguard of synthetic revolution.

[essarr71]

Maybe organics and synthetics knowing each could destroy the other actually encourages diplomacy. Dont see a lot of nukes going off these days, do we?

Modifié par essarr71, 27 novembre 2013 - 11:33 .