144 réponses à ce sujet

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Well I've got to agree. There is no necessity for sapient synthetic life (AIs). An independent AI isn't in theory going to be any more intelligent than the person who built and programmed the thing. The problem is that it will perform those calculations faster. It won't be any wiser or any more creative so what's the point? Just stick with a VI or high powered computer.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

essarr71 wrote...

Maybe organics and synthetics knowing each could destroy the other actually encourages diplomacy. Dont see a lot of nukes going off these days, do we?

Mainly because AI doesn't exist.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 27 novembre 2013 - 01:45 .

[Obadiah]

Deathsaurer wrote...
...
Unfortunately there is precedent of a single race taking over and running a cycle, the Protheans. We're forced to ask ourselves if the Leviathan/Prothean model is the norm. This cycle may have been well and truely unique and even then you can still see the undercurrent of racism in every major society. And then again maybe humans would have become the Protheans of this cycle in a few centuries.

Gonna just spitball some ideas just to work this notion of domination being the norm, and why it could be changing with the Reaper cycles further down.

Rasofe wrote...
...
Anyway, the trend toward liberations of synthetics becoming less like rebellions is pretty self-evident in the
history of MEU. If you want to see an exactly opposite escalation so badly, I guess there's nothing I can say to change your mind.

You're right, I don't think it is self-evident given the examples we have, but here is how something like that could happen.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

The rise of each race does not start at the beginning of each Reaper cycle, it starts with the evolution of the race on some planet millions and billions of years in the past. If it is true that aggressive species become advanced and dominant faster in the galaxy, then within a 50,000 year span their civilizations would rise in the earlier cycles, and  they would be the ones wiped out by the Reapers sooner, leaving the less aggressive, more cooperative species to continue to grow and develop on other planets and rise over time.

If Organics create Synthetics in their own image, so to speak, then within successive cycles this may lead to the Organics creating Synthetics which would be more cooperative, and less likely to try to wipe all Organics out. It may be as Shepard said to Leviathan, "This cycle is different."

This plays into the idea that the Reapers are in fact part of the "solution" to prevent the inevitable destruction of Organics, and that they are also part of their own demise as cooperative cycles are simply more robust (true/false? Individuals support their institutions without being forced to, etc...), and become even more powerful given the tools left by the previous more aggressive/domination-prone cycles.

This would be another reason why Refuse leads to the destruction of the Reapers in the next cycle.

Modifié par Obadiah, 27 novembre 2013 - 03:16 .

[Rasofe]

IF it is true that aggresive species become advanced faster. In MEU, the Salarians and Asari were the first. The Asari were uplifted at least partially, and the Salarians are a little like mosquitos. The most aggressive Council race are the humans, who joined the party what, 3 years before the Reaper invasion?
There are more cofounding factors in play. The best we can do is make observations, reducing it to an overly simple model will work about as well as with morphology studies.
Observations:
While the Metacon War necessitated the Protheans to unite all organic life in the galaxy to "turn the tide" as Javik put it, the Geth were almost completely defeated by the Quarians alone 300 years after their rebellion. Additionally, the Geth allowed the Quarians to live and go into exile, while the Zha'til used their creators as parasites, similar to Collectors.
1. Modern AI is less ruthless than previous cycle AI. This is also based on the Catalyst. All that is required is an interpolation curve between the three.
2. Modern Organics are much better at destroying Synthetics than in the previous cycles.
3. Modern Species are also much more capable of cooperation. But the Protheans too considered unity important, certainly much more so than Leviathans who enthralled their servants completely.

Conclusion: Both the ability for dominance and cooperation have evolved. It is in fact possible that dominance has become so refined across multiple species of the galaxy that peace became deemed more desirable, rather than armed conflict. Similar to our current social circumstance. While the Protheans were by far the strongest race of their time, and the Leviathans outsurpassed the others of their time as gods, modern species would never succeed an intergalactic war with each other without taking exorbitant losses from the conflict.

Given what the Catalysts says, this is not the intended side-effect. The Catalyst wants Synthesis. And while Refusal will lead to the victory of the next cycle, it is possible to achieve victory now, and the problem stated by the Catalyst becomes defunct either way. The AI's will never escalate as strong as the original, most terrifying machines the galaxy has ever seen, since they have only become weaker and weaker since (with respect to their contemporary Organics). Organics have beaten the Reapers and know how to beat the synths by force. And finally, it is no longer a fact of life that there will be an armed conflict between the two, since they have learned to cooperate, and have an equated aptitude to beat each other.

The solution the Catalyst wanted was to preserve organic life through Synthesis. The solution evolution has given us is to forget the problem even exists and neutralise the Reapers.
In the words of Stanley Kubrick:
Dr T'Soni, or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Crucible.

Modifié par Rasofe, 27 novembre 2013 - 05:50 .

[Obadiah]

I do not find an interpolation curve between the Catalyst rebellion over 37million years in the past, one (or two?) events during the Prothean cycle 50000 years ago, and one 300 years ago, while ignoring the rebellions that took place leading up to the Catalyst rebellion terribly useful.

[Rasofe]

I'm not ignoring anything that we simply don't have. The pre-reaper rebellions are complete unknowns.
It's a scientists job to work with the data available. When EDI is included, the curve is a clear decrease.
Reapers/Catalyst
.
.
.
Zhatil
Geth
The Citadel Thief AI (killed by Shepard).
EDI.
That's all the data we have. How does it look like a conflict escalation?

[Obadiah]

There have been at least 740 cycles since the Reapers started. Probably at least 2 major rebellions per cycle, and who knows how many instances of cooperation and rebellion at the level of EDI and the ME1 Citadel AI. An interpolation curve based on the limited information we have is just not that compelling to me.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Rasofe wrote...

I'm not ignoring anything that we simply don't have. The pre-reaper rebellions are complete unknowns.
It's a scientists job to work with the data available. When EDI is included, the curve is a clear decrease.
Reapers/Catalyst
.
.
.
Zhatil
Geth
The Citadel Thief AI (killed by Shepard).
EDI.
That's all the data we have. How does it look like a conflict escalation?

Did you know that Sovereign deliberately and directly incited conflict between Organics and Synthetics when it recruited the heretics to begin its crusade against the galaxy?

[Rasofe]

Obadiah wrote...

There have been at least 740 cycles since the Reapers started. Probably at least 2 major rebellions per cycle, and who knows how many instances of cooperation and rebellion at the level of EDI and the ME1 Citadel AI. An interpolation curve based on the limited information we have is just not that compelling to me.

Yeah, but what are we basing your escalation theory on? Besides real-life nuclear arms race, that is.

[Wayning_Star]

Must keep in mind that all reaperships do what they do because of the catalyst and it's ideal about preserving organics in other forms. They actually insist that their way is better and really based in good intention, no matter who's highway is being paved in essence... so they cannot escalate no matter what they do. The kicker is that they simply don't know. Weird...

[essarr71]

Obadiah wrote...

There have been at least 740 cycles since the Reapers started. Probably at least 2 major rebellions per cycle, and who knows how many instances of cooperation and rebellion at the level of EDI and the ME1 Citadel AI. An interpolation curve based on the limited information we have is just not that compelling to me.

Amazing.  So I guess no evidence is better than some evidence?

Why stop at 2 rebellions?  Why not 20?  You have just as much information to support both of these conclusions and 20 sounds so much more convincing.

[Obadiah]

Rasofe wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

There have been at least 740 cycles since the Reapers started. Probably at least 2 major rebellions per cycle, and who knows how many instances of cooperation and rebellion at the level of EDI and the ME1 Citadel AI. An interpolation curve based on the limited information we have is just not that compelling to me.

Yeah, but what are we basing your escalation theory on? Besides real-life nuclear arms race, that is.

Just the general behaviour of people and groups in competition.

[The Night Mammoth]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Rasofe wrote...

I'm not ignoring anything that we simply don't have. The pre-reaper rebellions are complete unknowns.
It's a scientists job to work with the data available. When EDI is included, the curve is a clear decrease.
Reapers/Catalyst
.
.
.
Zhatil
Geth
The Citadel Thief AI (killed by Shepard).
EDI.
That's all the data we have. How does it look like a conflict escalation?

Did you know that Sovereign deliberately and directly incited conflict between Organics and Synthetics when it recruited the heretics to begin its crusade against the galaxy?

Did you also know that Sovereign's cooercion of the geth is not the first time the we know the Reapers have done something like this? They did it in the prothean cycle at least once with the Zha'til, and also helped the synthetics the protheans fought in the metacon war. 

[Rasofe]

Don't get cheeky. He's right that the data is scarce.
But when you consider - and I know this can be a little tricky given the endings - that this is how the writers thought this through, Bioware can at least admit that the rebellions in previous cycles were also along or around the interpolation curve I'm suggesting. It would make the primary colour endings mean something for the motif of the central theme and Shepard's character development.

I mean, Indoctrination Theory was thought as so damn clever, people thought that Bioware would be stupid not to make it canon. And they didn't. These days very few people remain who go out of their way to still lecture IT.

P.S. I know it may be possible, but is there canonical evidence the Reapers were behind the Zhatil?

Modifié par Rasofe, 27 novembre 2013 - 07:38 .

[Wayning_Star]

the reaperships harvested all those they use for harvest. There is NO war, only the harvest...

(i.e. , no competition.)

[The Night Mammoth]

Rasofe wrote...

P.S. I know it may be possible, but is there canonical evidence the Reapers were behind the Zhatil?

Javik is the only source. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Rasofe wrote...

I'm not ignoring anything that we simply don't have. The pre-reaper rebellions are complete unknowns.
It's a scientists job to work with the data available. When EDI is included, the curve is a clear decrease.
Reapers/Catalyst
.
.
.
Zhatil
Geth
The Citadel Thief AI (killed by Shepard).
EDI.
That's all the data we have. How does it look like a conflict escalation?

Did you know that Sovereign deliberately and directly incited conflict between Organics and Synthetics when it recruited the heretics to begin its crusade against the galaxy?

Did you also know that Sovereign's cooercion of the geth is not the first time the we know the Reapers have done something like this? They did it in the prothean cycle at least once with the Zha'til, and also helped the synthetics the protheans fought in the metacon war. 

I don't doubt it. Telling me that the Catalyst is a bloody hypocrite, in a logical manner.

[Rasofe]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Rasofe wrote...

P.S. I know it may be possible, but is there canonical evidence the Reapers were behind the Zhatil?

Javik is the only source. 

Javik talked about the Zhatil as a general example of synthetics. He never said they were evil because of Reapers - he had his own explanation for why all synthetics are evil.
On the other hand, by making AI's more and more similar to us, organics made synthetics without clear purpose, like EDI. Organic chaos became a significant influence when an AI is made "just because you can", and that's what makes synthetics and organics so similar in moden MEU.

[Wayning_Star]

Rasofe wrote...

Don't get cheeky. He's right that the data is scarce.
But when you consider - and I know this can be a little tricky given the endings - that this is how the writers thought this through, Bioware can at least admit that the rebellions in previous cycles were also along or around the interpolation curve I'm suggesting.

I mean, Indoctrination Theory was thought as so damn clever, people thought that Bioware would be stupid not to make it canon. And they didn't. These days very few people remain who go out of their way to still lecture IT.

I've come to blam the IT on miscommunication "in story" to the description of the "link" between races, even the high tech catalyst.  Maybe even especially with the catalyst, via prothean relics. Shep seems adept at 'tuning into' those without damage. The cypher seemed to get along with Shepard as well. Put the Levi in the mix, Shep is a beacon as well, apparently.  Javik memory chit is another example, probably others, where Shep doesn't succumb.

I think that the AI wiping out organics was on a much smaller scale, but interfered with Leviathan slave trade, so it had to be controlled. Trusting it to the catalyst/AI wasn't the best avenue. Yet the AI didn't actually wipe out organics, so much as 'altered' them to some sort of co existence. Who knows, maybe the synthetics are the ones who designed the crucible. Seems logical really..

[Rasofe]

Don't know about logic. My experience with it involves mostly bool rules, tertium no datur, ex falso quodiblet and the empty set. I really like the empty set.
Whatever first designed the crucible must've already had mass effect technology. That's about all I can assume. Even then synthetics being its original designers doesn't contribute much thematically. Not that the crucible contributes much except as a macguffin anyway.

[Wayning_Star]

oop's, human logic...lol

[The Night Mammoth]

Rasofe wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Rasofe wrote...

P.S. I know it may be possible, but is there canonical evidence the Reapers were behind the Zhatil?

Javik is the only source. 

Javik talked about the Zhatil as a general example of synthetics. He never said they were evil because of Reapers - he had his own explanation for why all synthetics are evil.

He said they were subjugated by the Reapers like the geth and turned against the Zha.

[Rasofe]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Rasofe wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Rasofe wrote...

P.S. I know it may be possible, but is there canonical evidence the Reapers were behind the Zhatil?

Javik is the only source. 

Javik talked about the Zhatil as a general example of synthetics. He never said they were evil because of Reapers - he had his own explanation for why all synthetics are evil.

He said they were subjugated by the Reapers like the geth and turned against the Zha.

I just played the game 3 times - done right up until Cronos with all playthroughs now - and I haven't heard him say that yet! Did I miss something? Please, if you can find a link to it post it, I want to hear it since I must've missed it.

[The Night Mammoth]

Rasofe wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Rasofe wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Rasofe wrote...

P.S. I know it may be possible, but is there canonical evidence the Reapers were behind the Zhatil?

Javik is the only source. 

Javik talked about the Zhatil as a general example of synthetics. He never said they were evil because of Reapers - he had his own explanation for why all synthetics are evil.

He said they were subjugated by the Reapers like the geth and turned against the Zha.

I just played the game 3 times - done right up until Cronos with all playthroughs now - and I haven't heard him say that yet! Did I miss something? Please, if you can find a link to it post it, I want to hear it since I must've missed it.

I've been looking for a link myself but I haven't found one. He says it during the geth dreadnought mission though. The Zha'til were apparently synthetic symbiotes of the Zha, who were organics. The Reapers arrived and subjugated the AI's and forced them to attack, taking control of the Zha in the progress, until the protheans destroyed them. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 27 novembre 2013 - 08:21 .

[Rasofe]

*Swearword*
I brought Ash with me on the last playthrough. Why did I do that? Come on! There's nothing that Ashley can say that Javik wouldn't say better!!
GRRR.
Sometimes I get so in character with my Shepards, the Failshepard's bad decisions start make me make bad decisions too.

Modifié par Rasofe, 27 novembre 2013 - 08:09 .