144 réponses à ce sujet

[Wayning_Star]

to interject there, you can get some weird stuff off Javik if you talk to him on the Normandy, be sure to be high enough renegade tho. Makes some more talkative.

I found a giant gun the size of a planet on one playthrough, never found it again...

[JasonShepard]

Rasofe wrote...

*Swearword*
I brought Ash with me on the last playthrough. Why did I do that? Come on! There's nothing that Ashley can say that Javik wouldn't say better!!
GRRR.
Sometimes I get so in character with my Shepards, the Failshepard's bad decisions start make me make bad decisions too.

I've been tracking this particular bit of dialogue as well, for a while, and I've got a worrying feeling that you only get it if you bring Liara and Javik along - which kinda requires Tali to be dead. It's slightly ridiculous how many hoops you have to jump through to get Javik to say it - I'm starting to think it might be an Urban Legend of Zelda...

(I'll quietly ignore your comment implying that Javik is better than my favourite character )

Modifié par JasonShepard, 21 décembre 2013 - 05:54 .

[Rasofe]

Quietly ignoring me is good for both of us. I don't wish to make this a pointless argument. Ashley just doesn't work with my anthropocentrist Shepard or my xenophillic Femshep, and I think she's not a good image for people like me who want human dominance when she doesn't really respect the aliens, or take into account the facts about the world around her (Leviathan, Geth consensus, Protheans... etc.)

Any dialogue that requires Tali to die may as well be non-canon.

[Obadiah]

You guys talking about Javik's Zha comment? I got it on my last playthrough with Tali alive. I think it might have been when rescuing Koris, or on the Normandy at some point (maybe when Javik was counciling Shepard to "throw [Legion] out the airlock").

[SwobyJ]

Rasofe wrote...

Quietly ignoring me is good for both of us. I don't wish to make this a pointless argument. Ashley just doesn't work with my anthropocentrist Shepard or my xenophillic Femshep, and I think she's not a good image for people like me who want human dominance when she doesn't really respect the aliens, or take into account the facts about the world around her (Leviathan, Geth consensus, Protheans... etc.)

Any dialogue that requires Tali to die may as well be non-canon.

Significant portions of the playerbase let the Quarians die, aka let Tali die. They do this because the Quarians went too far in foolishness.

(I've never done this myself in a playthrough yet though)

[JasonShepard]

Obadiah wrote...

You guys talking about Javik's Zha comment? I got it on my last playthrough with Tali alive. I think it might have been when rescuing Koris, or on the Normandy at some point (maybe when Javik was counciling Shepard to "throw [Legion] out the airlock").

Okay, just to check. Did you get Javik talking about the Zha generally, or did you get him specifically saying that the Zha'til were peaceful until the Reapers turned the AIs against their masters? Because it's the latter dialogue that I've been looking for.

If so, I can knock "Tali dead" off my list of requirements to finally get this dialogue...

@Rasofe: Everyone is allowed their preferences, don't worry. I'm not the type to get into that sort of argument, I was just poking a bit of fun.

Modifié par JasonShepard, 27 novembre 2013 - 11:45 .

[Rasofe]

SwobyJ wrote...

Rasofe wrote...

Quietly ignoring me is good for both of us. I don't wish to make this a pointless argument. Ashley just doesn't work with my anthropocentrist Shepard or my xenophillic Femshep, and I think she's not a good image for people like me who want human dominance when she doesn't really respect the aliens, or take into account the facts about the world around her (Leviathan, Geth consensus, Protheans... etc.)

Any dialogue that requires Tali to die may as well be non-canon.

Significant portions of the playerbase let the Quarians die, aka let Tali die. They do this because the Quarians went too far in foolishness.

(I've never done this myself in a playthrough yet though)

Yeah, maybe.
But come on (saying to those people) Tali was the reason you were even able to beat Saren in the first place! Even if you'd like to see the Quarians dead, you should've held back because of Tali! (end saying)
Anyway, non-canon is more or less the rule of the game for the trilogy so it's not like my statement means anything.

[SwobyJ]

Rasofe wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

Rasofe wrote...

Quietly ignoring me is good for both of us. I don't wish to make this a pointless argument. Ashley just doesn't work with my anthropocentrist Shepard or my xenophillic Femshep, and I think she's not a good image for people like me who want human dominance when she doesn't really respect the aliens, or take into account the facts about the world around her (Leviathan, Geth consensus, Protheans... etc.)

Any dialogue that requires Tali to die may as well be non-canon.

Significant portions of the playerbase let the Quarians die, aka let Tali die. They do this because the Quarians went too far in foolishness.

(I've never done this myself in a playthrough yet though)

Yeah, maybe.
But come on (saying to those people) Tali was the reason you were even able to beat Saren in the first place! Even if you'd like to see the Quarians dead, you should've held back because of Tali! (end saying)
Anyway, non-canon is more or less the rule of the game for the trilogy so it's not like my statement means anything.

You can say that for most ME1 squadmates.
-VS, because they helped Shepard get to the Eden Prime beacon (we can't assume he's survive there solo)
-Liara, because they wouldn't have found Ilos otherwise
-Garrus or Wrex, their help pointing us to Tali who would have died in the street otherwise

*shrug* she plays a big enough role, and I'll say that I even brought her to my final ME1 fight because of that, but after ME1 her importance becomes almost entirely optional (pick her up in ME2, get her killed, she is replaced on Rannoch; or don't even pick her up in ME2, then use her only on two forced missions in ME3, then pick Geth to win).

It's up to you how much you want to be 'loyal' to your ME1 team (Wrex, VS, Tali, Garrus - only Liara is outright completely pushed on you, and even she can be ignored through most of ME2-3 and killed at the final beam)

[Reorte]

Just reloaded that Geth Dreadnought mission from my last save, Tali alive and well, took Javik along and got the line. It's in response to activating the signal console (through a door, first thing on the right, before getting to the operations centre).

[mass perfection]

The ending is pure propaganda for countless isms that all support the nwo.

[Obadiah]

Reorte wrote...

Just reloaded that Geth Dreadnought mission from my last save, Tali alive and well, took Javik along and got the line. It's in response to activating the signal console (through a door, first thing on the right, before getting to the operations centre).

Tried it with Tali alive as well and got the one liner. It didn't sound like the one-liner discussed the initial Zha'til takeover of the Zha, it was more a description of how the Zha'til were used once the Reapers arrived.

Modifié par Obadiah, 29 novembre 2013 - 03:03 .

[Han Shot First]

There isn't any evidence that synthetics are any more a threat to galactic civilization than organics. The Geth were not very warlike at all, and the Krogan caused more damage to the galaxy than the Geth ever did. The Protheans also crushed both synthetic factions they warred against during their cycle, and the Leviathans crushed the synthetics that rebelled against them.

The only faction that perhaps proves the synthetics = dangerous theory is the Reapers themselves, which is quite ironic, considering they're supposedly the solution to the synthetic 'problem.' And Synthesis and Control leave the Reaper fleet completely intact, undefeated, and fully capable of annihilating galactic civilization on a moment's notice.

[SwobyJ]

Han Shot First wrote...

There isn't any evidence that synthetics are any more a threat to galactic civilization than organics. The Geth were not very warlike at all, and the Krogan caused more damage to the galaxy than the Geth ever did. The Protheans also crushed both synthetic factions they warred against during their cycle, and the Leviathans crushed the synthetics that rebelled against them.

The only faction that perhaps proves the synthetics = dangerous theory is the Reapers themselves, which is quite ironic, considering they're supposedly the solution to the synthetic 'problem.' And Synthesis and Control leave the Reaper fleet completely intact, undefeated, and fully capable of annihilating galactic civilization on a moment's notice.

Interesting, that.

[JasonShepard]

Obadiah wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Just reloaded that Geth Dreadnought mission from my last save, Tali alive and well, took Javik along and got the line. It's in response to activating the signal console (through a door, first thing on the right, before getting to the operations centre).

Tried it with Tali alive as well and got the one liner. It didn't sound like the one-liner discussed the initial Zha'til takeover of the Zha, it was more a description of how the Zha'til were used once the Reapers arrived.

Tali alive? Okay, in that case I can check it out during my current playthrough. That's useful. Thanks, both of you.

***

@Han Shot First:
For what it's worth, although I fully agree with your username, I disagree with the idea that Control leaves the Reapers undefeated and/or capable of annihilating galactic civilisation at a moment's notice.

I'd argue that Shepard defeated them. Note how they are now following Shep's orders - and they can't annihilate galactic civilisation if the Commander is holding them back from doing so. (Without the Catalyst's influence, they might not even want to, but that's purely speculative territory.)

I do agree that the Catalyst is the best - and possibly only - example of Synthetics being dangerous on a galactic scale. (I'm making a distinction between the Reapers and the Catalyst, since the Reapers aren't fully synthetic.)

Modifié par JasonShepard, 29 novembre 2013 - 03:32 .

[Obadiah]

Han Shot First wrote...

There isn't any evidence that synthetics are any more a threat to galactic civilization than organics. The Geth were not very warlike at all, and the Krogan caused more damage to the galaxy than the Geth ever did. The Protheans also crushed both synthetic factions they warred against during their cycle, and the Leviathans crushed the synthetics that rebelled against them.

The only faction that perhaps proves the synthetics = dangerous theory is the Reapers themselves, which is quite ironic, considering they're supposedly the solution to the synthetic 'problem.' And Synthesis and Control leave the Reaper fleet completely intact, undefeated, and fully capable of annihilating galactic civilization on a moment's notice.

That just proves that Synthetics have lost in the past, except for the Reapers who are about to lose to our anti-AI weapon. What happens when the AI don't lose?

[JasonShepard]

Okay, so here's how I see it:

AIs have certain advantages. They certainly seem to advance faster. Look at EDI. She has the personality and development of a woman in her mid-20s, but is actually only 3 years old.

Then there's the Geth, who were capable of waging - and winning - a planet-wide war only a relatively short time after they were first created. Since then, they've advanced to a space faring race capable of galactic warfare after only 200 years. Imagine what they'll be like in 1000 years!

If synthetics always advance faster than organics, and the two continue to co-exist, there will come a point where the synthetics overtake organics, in terms of technological capability. At that point, the organics will always be at the mercy of synthetics. If a war breaks out, synthetics would be capable of crushing organics.

Organics advance at varying rates. A single race will make a sudden technological leap, then achieve nothing particularly new for centuries. In this way, different organic races will have the technological advantage at different times, and no one race will always be ahead.

Organics vs Synthetics is an entirely different question to Organics vs other Organics.

[Han Shot First]

Obadiah wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

There isn't any evidence that synthetics are any more a threat to galactic civilization than organics. The Geth were not very warlike at all, and the Krogan caused more damage to the galaxy than the Geth ever did. The Protheans also crushed both synthetic factions they warred against during their cycle, and the Leviathans crushed the synthetics that rebelled against them.

The only faction that perhaps proves the synthetics = dangerous theory is the Reapers themselves, which is quite ironic, considering they're supposedly the solution to the synthetic 'problem.' And Synthesis and Control leave the Reaper fleet completely intact, undefeated, and fully capable of annihilating galactic civilization on a moment's notice.

That just proves that Synthetics have lost in the past, except for the Reapers who are about to lose to our anti-AI weapon. What happens when the AI don't lose?

What makes synthetics inherently more dangerous than organics? What makes the something like the Geth more of a threat than a warlike organic species like the Krogan or the Protheans? And if you accept that synthetics are inherently more dangerous than organics, doesn't that line of thinking automatically justify Destroy?

[Obadiah]

Han Shot First wrote...
...
What makes synthetics inherently more dangerous than organics? What makes the something like the Geth more of a threat than a warlike organic species like the Krogan or the Protheans?
...

Organics will not wipe out all Organics (as they are about to wipe out all AI with the Crucible).

I don't think the notion that Synthetics will wipe out all Organics is that far fetched. You raised the examples of Synthetics constantly losing to Organics within their cycle. With the Reapers gone, that's pretty much what Synthetics will be back to - constantly losing to Organics over and over. It's the Reaper cycles with Organics doing it to Synthetics. At some point the Synthetics will do what we did with the Crucible and build an anti-Organic weapon.

Han Shot First wrote...
...
And if you accept that synthetics are inherently more dangerous than organics, doesn't that line of thinking automatically justify Destroy?

It means you accept that there is a problem and have to look for a solution, but no one knows for certain what that is.

Modifié par Obadiah, 29 novembre 2013 - 07:25 .

[KaiserShep]

Obadiah wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...
...
What makes synthetics inherently more dangerous than organics? What makes the something like the Geth more of a threat than a warlike organic species like the Krogan or the Protheans?
...

Organics will not wipe out all Organics (as they are about to wipe out all AI with the Crucible).

It doesn't really matter whether or not they intend to wipe out all organics, or simply wipe out the entirety of organic civilizations or subjugate and torture them. Both the rachni and the krogan attempted to do exactly that. If the genophage was not developed, the krogan would have expanded throughout council space, and effectively push aside any other civilizations that may be living on less developed worlds, maybe even our own. We had no substantial technology on earth during this time frame, so we'd stand zero chance. If an alien species came to earth and pledged to wipe out all human civilization, it would make no difference to us if they also promised to wipe out the other flora and fauna too.

I don't think the notion that Synthetics will wipe out all Organics is that far fetched. You raised the examples of Synthetics constantly losing to Organics within their cycle. With the Reapers gone, that's pretty much what Synthetics will be back to - constantly losing to Organics over and over. It's the Reaper cycles with Organics doing it to Synthetics. At some point the Synthetics will do what we did with the Crucible and build an anti-Organic weapon.

The anti-organic weapon is anything but inevitable. It's either possible that synthetics never develop a viable concept for such a device, or if they do develop any concept at all, that it may not be possible for such a thing to exist. Of course, this is aside from the possibility that synthetics simply never succeed in building it, because they keep losing over and over again. I guess this really comes down to how much personal lore one wishes to insert into the story. The Crucible is probably the biggest piece of space magic in the entire series, and it can only target either all synthetics, or everything within blast range.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 29 novembre 2013 - 10:31 .

[Eryri]

I really dislike the notion that a particular group is "destined" to go on some sort of murderous rampage. It seems contrary to the spirit of the rest of the series - we learned that Krogan weren't the brutal thugs we initially thought them to be, and through Legion we learned the Geth weren't inherently evil either.
The Geth and Edi just seemed like another sort of people to me, metaphorical stand ins for those we view as different to ourselves. It may sound trite, but "Do unto others" was the plain and simple, common sense answer all along to hostilities with the Geth, and to a lesser extent with EDI / Luna. Shepard had the option to respect them as equals rather than treat them as slaves and earned their respect and loyalty in return. I don't see why this couldn't apply to any future, hypothetical AI in the ME universe.

[Obadiah]

KaiserShep wrote...
...
The anti-organic weapon is anything but inevitable. It's either possible that synthetics never develop a viable concept for such a device, or if they do develop any concept at all, that it may not be possible for such a thing to exist. Of course, this is aside from the possibility that synthetics simply never succeed in building it, because they keep losing over and over again.
...

Synthetics only have to succeed in doing it once, maybe in desperation, as we just have at the climax of ME3.

Modifié par Obadiah, 29 novembre 2013 - 08:05 .

[Rasofe]

If my predictions of the thematic meaning of the endings are correct, they won't.

[Obadiah]

Eryri wrote...

I really dislike the notion that a particular group is "destined" to go on some sort of murderous rampage. It seems contrary to the spirit of the rest of the series - we learned that Krogan weren't the brutal thugs we initially thought them to be, and through Legion we learned the Geth weren't inherently evil either.

The Geth and Edi just seemed like another sort of people to me, metaphorical stand ins for those we view as different to ourselves. It may sound trite, but "Do unto others" was the plain and simple, common sense answer all along to hostilities with the Geth, and to a lesser extent with EDI / Luna. Shepard had the option to respect them as equals rather than treat them as slaves and earned their respect and loyalty in return. I don't see why this couldn't apply to any future, hypothetical AI in the ME universe.

I like the idea that we are slaves to patterns, be they as nebulous as being in a constant battle between Order and Chaos, or, as tangible as always building successfull major ports cities in geographically protected coastal locations convenient to trade routes. It does not trouble me that some dispassionate entity has observed our kind and found a pattern of behavior that would lead to our annihalation. The reaction on this forum to such a revelation is... well... (in hindsight) what I would expect.

Mass Effect is fiction, with fictional patterns. I think there is plenty of evidence ot support the pattern aside from the information dump from the 37 million year old AI, and I think the creation of the Crucible is a really cool obvious one that has been overlooked, so I pointed it out.

Modifié par Obadiah, 29 novembre 2013 - 08:28 .

[Reorte]

Obadiah wrote...

Mass Effect is fiction, with fictional patterns. I think there is plenty of evidence ot support the pattern aside from the information dump from the 37 million year old AI, and I think the creation of the Crucible is a really cool obvious one that has been overlooked, so I pointed it out.

I'm afraid "it's fiction" is never a good reply. If that's what you have to boil down to to justify a position then you've got bad fiction. In particular any issues that in theory could happen in the real world fail badly with the "it's fiction" argument; it usually sounds like trying to defend Wile E Coyote physics.

[KaiserShep]

Obadiah wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...
...
The anti-organic weapon is anything but inevitable. It's either possible that synthetics never develop a viable concept for such a device, or if they do develop any concept at all, that it may not be possible for such a thing to exist. Of course, this is aside from the possibility that synthetics simply never succeed in building it, because they keep losing over and over again.
...

Synthetics only have to succeed in doing it once, maybe in desperation, as we just have at the climax of ME3.

While true, this doesn't really address whether or not the creation of the weapon is possible, let alone inevitable. It could be possible that the only way to deal with organics on a particularly lage scale would be to wipe out the entire star system by destroying its relay, but then the same can be done to it by other organics if it resorts to such tactics. In the end, this is all still wildly speculatory. These future AI have no motives or knowledge of past events other than what we expect to have.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 29 novembre 2013 - 09:24 .