144 réponses à ce sujet

[Obadiah]

Reorte wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

Mass Effect is fiction, with fictional patterns. I think there is plenty of evidence ot support the pattern aside from the information dump from the 37 million year old AI, and I think the creation of the Crucible is a really cool obvious one that has been overlooked, so I pointed it out.

I'm afraid "it's fiction" is never a good reply. If that's what you have to boil down to to justify a position then you've got bad fiction. In particular any issues that in theory could happen in the real world fail badly with the "it's fiction" argument; it usually sounds like trying to defend Wile E Coyote physics.

It's ficton. It's consistent fiction. It's good fiction that projects real world ideas into a science fiction realm in unexpected, interesting, and thought provoking ways.

Seems like a good enough answer to me.

Its better than not liking the story and constantly complaining about it as "fail badly" and "Wile E Coyote physics" to players that do.

KaiserShep wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...
...
The
anti-organic weapon is anything but inevitable. It's either possible that synthetics never develop a viable concept for such a device, or if they do develop any concept at all, that it may not be possible for such a thing to exist. Of course, this is aside from the possibility that synthetics simply never succeed in building it, because they keep losing over and over again.
...

Synthetics only have to succeed in doing it once, maybe in desperation, as we just have at the climax of ME3.

While true, this doesn't really address whether or not the creation of the  weapon is possible, let alone inevitable. It could be possible that the only way to deal with organics on a particularly lage scale would be to wipe out the entire star system by destroying its relay, but then the same can be done to it by other organics if it resorts to such tactics. In the end, this is all still wildly speculatory. 

So... yeah... escalation. It doesn't have to be a weapon (as it is with the Crucible), just a plan to destroy every organic and the will to move forward with it. Same way the Reapers spend decades or centuries harvesting.

KaiserShep wrote...
...
These future AI have no motives or knowledge of past events other than what we expect to have.

We uncovered the cycles of destruction, when we weren't supposed to. Each cycle helped the next when it wasn't supposed to. Leviathan managed to survive from the first cycle and told us how it all began.

Why would freed AI looking at history not uncover the cycle of violence to them?

Modifié par Obadiah, 29 novembre 2013 - 10:00 .

[KaiserShep]

Consistency is not one of ME's strongest points, if you look at the entire series arc.

Obadiah wrote...
I like the idea that we are slaves to
patterns, be they as nebulous as being in a constant battle between
Order and Chaos, or, as tangible as always building successfull major ports cities in geographically protected coastal locations convenient totrade routes. It does not trouble me that some dispassionate entity has observed our kind and found a pattern of behavior that would lead to our annihalation. The reaction on this forum to such a revelation is... well... (in hindsight) what I would expect.

Thing is, this has more of the tone of religious doctrine than anything, so it's not surprising that a lot of people would reject it. This is fiction, sure, but in an interactive story in which ambiguity leaves the player to apply their own personal beliefs or knowledge, people are not always going to accept everything characters say, especially when it's trying to predict the future. For me, there's nothing any dispassionate being could say that would sway me when it comes to it predicting the future, short of actually showing me some kind of magic mirror displaying future events unfolding.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 29 novembre 2013 - 09:50 .

[Obadiah]

KaiserShep wrote...

Consistency is not one of ME's strongest points, if you look at the entire series arc.

Obadiah wrote...
I like the idea that we are slaves to
patterns, be they as nebulous as being in a constant battle between
Order and Chaos, or, as tangible as always building successfull major ports cities in geographically protected coastal locations convenient totrade routes. It does not trouble me that some dispassionate entity has observed our kind and found a pattern of behavior that would lead to our annihalation. The reaction on this forum to such a revelation is... well... (in hindsight) what I would expect.

Thing is, this has more of the tone of religious doctrine than anything, so it's not surprising that a lot of people would reject it.

I don't see much of a religious doctrine in the Catalyst's statement. It's an AI that has tried to make peace in the past and failed, and came to a conclusion based on the way Organics and Synthetics behaved. I see that players just don't believe it based on their experiences in game. But religious? Look, I've brought this up before, if we had time to debate the Catalyst on its conclusions, do you think it would just point to some conclusion written somewhere which would be invalidated by the peace between Quarians and Geth, or would it pull up millions of years of data and trend charts, and heretofore unknown theories of Organic and Synthetic behavior from the past 700+ cycles with detailed proofs?

KaiserShep wrote...
This is fiction, sure, but in an interactive story in which ambiguity leaves the player to apply their own personal beliefs or knowledge, people are not always going to accept everything characters say, especially when it's trying to predict the future. For me, there's nothing any dispassionate being could say that would sway me when it comes to it predicting the future, short of actually showing me some kind of magic mirror displaying future events unfolding.

To me that makes the ending bascially what happens when two irreconcilable views collide. I can see why you don't like it.

Modifié par Obadiah, 29 novembre 2013 - 10:18 .

[TheMyron]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

 

Did the Reapers wipe out all life in the galaxy? No, they did the exact opposite - culling only technologically advanced species to make sure that more primitive species get to develop. 

They still came down to Earth and Zapped a caveman...

[Reorte]

Obadiah wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

Mass Effect is fiction, with fictional patterns. I think there is plenty of evidence ot support the pattern aside from the information dump from the 37 million year old AI, and I think the creation of the Crucible is a really cool obvious one that has been overlooked, so I pointed it out.

I'm afraid "it's fiction" is never a good reply. If that's what you have to boil down to to justify a position then you've got bad fiction. In particular any issues that in theory could happen in the real world fail badly with the "it's fiction" argument; it usually sounds like trying to defend Wile E Coyote physics.

It's ficton. It's consistent fiction. It's good fiction that projects real world ideas into a science fiction realm in unexpected, interesting, and thought provoking ways.

Seems like a good enough answer to me.

It's not consistent and by having to resort to implausible in-universe defences it fails to "project real world ideas into a science fiction environment." If it's projecting real-world ideas then it can't fall back on the tired old "Well, it works in this universe." There is interesting stuff buried in there but the rubbish should be ignored, not used to bolster questionable arguments.

Its better than not liking the story and constantly complaining about it as "fail badly" and "Wile E Coyote physics" to players that do.

Ignoring the faults and whinging about people who don't doesn't make your point any stronger.

[KaiserShep]

Obadiah wrote...

I don't see much of a religious doctrine in the Catalyst's statement. It's an AI that has tried to make peace in the past and failed, and came to a conclusion based on the way Organics and Synthetics behaved. I see that players just don't believe it based on their experiences in game. But religious? Look, I've brought this up before, if we had time to debate the Catalyst on its conclusions, do you think it would just point to some conclusion written somewhere which would be invalidated by the peace between Quarians and Geth, or would it pull up millions of years of data and trend charts, and heretofore unknown theories of Organic and Synthetic behavior from the past 700+ cycles with detailed proofs?

The reason I say that this parallels with religious doctrine is because religious doctrine typically deals in absolutes with no proof, especially when it comes to matters of the future (which cannot be proven or disproven), which is precisely what the catalyst is doing. As I see it, its constant interference makes whatever pattern it's observed questionable, and ultimately irrelevant for me, and would not reduce the significance of the geth/quarian alliance from my perspective. (can you imagine it just breaking out its powerpoint app and some kind of graph to try to prove itself?)

KaiserShep wrote...
This is fiction, sure, but in an interactive story in which ambiguity leaves the player to apply their own personal beliefs or knowledge, people are not always going to accept everything characters say, especially when it's trying to predict the future. For me, there's nothing any dispassionate being could say that would sway me when it comes to it predicting the future, short of actually showing me some kind of magic mirror displaying future events unfolding.

To me that makes the ending bascially what happens when two irreconcilable views collide. I can see why you don't like it.

No what I truly don't like is the catalyst's "beliefs", but I do like that the ending itself leaves this more to my own interpretation of the reality of the game than pushing that what it says is absolutely a demand from the author(s). I nitpick and criticize the heck out of the ending (which I often do with stories I love), but I find it acceptable with the extended cut.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 29 novembre 2013 - 10:46 .

[KaiserShep]

TheMyron wrote...

They still came down to Earth and Zapped a caveman...

It was my impression that the sphere on Elatania shows the protheans studying cro-magnon man.

[TheMyron]

KaiserShep wrote...

TheMyron wrote...

They still came down to Earth and Zapped a caveman...

It was my impression that the sphere on Elatania shows the protheans studying cro-magnon man.

Indeed, it first says:


Leaning on your bone-tipped spear for support, you rise to your feet. A sound draws your attention upwards, where a strange creature hovers high above you. It is unlike the birds you hunt by the lake's edge – it has no head and no wings yet somehow it flies. It is a beast of shining silver; hanging motionless in the sky like a cloud. You sense it is watching you, studying you.
Raising a hairy fist, you shake your spear at it in anger and the creature rises up quickly until it disappears from view. With a satisfied grunt you make your way back to your caves and the rest of the tribe.

It then says:

It is on one of these long hunts that the strange bird returns. You hear it before you see it, its call a deafening roar as it descends from above, swooping down on you. A single great eye opens on the underbelly, a glowing red orb. You try to run, but a finger of red light extends from the eye and engulfs you, and all goes black again.

[Obadiah]

Reorte wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

Mass Effect is fiction, with fictional patterns. I think there is plenty of evidence ot support the pattern aside from the information dump from the 37 million year old AI, and I think the creation of the Crucible is a really cool obvious one that has been overlooked, so I pointed it out.

I'm afraid "it's fiction" is never a good reply. If that's what you have to boil down to to justify a position then you've got bad fiction. In particular any issues that in theory could happen in the real world fail badly with the "it's fiction" argument; it usually sounds like trying to defend Wile E Coyote physics.

It's ficton. It's consistent fiction. It's good fiction that projects real world ideas into a science fiction realm in unexpected, interesting, and thought provoking ways.

Seems like a good enough answer to me.

It's not consistent and by having to resort to implausible in-universe defences it fails to "project real world ideas into a science fiction environment." If it's projecting real-world ideas then it can't fall back on the tired old "Well, it works in this universe." There is interesting stuff buried in there but the rubbish should be ignored, not used to bolster questionable arguments.

Its better than not liking the story and constantly complaining about it as "fail badly" and "Wile E Coyote physics" to players that do.

Ignoring the faults and whinging about people who don't doesn't make your point any stronger.

Who's ignoring faults? If you're going to share your criticism of the game in general terms, expect a response in kind. The thread is about one piece of evidence I noticed which was new to me. If you want to complain about the faults (again) go make a thread. Seems like there are enough posters to agree with you.

Modifié par Obadiah, 30 novembre 2013 - 02:46 .

[Obadiah]

@KaiserShep
The Catalyst is a Synthetic. Has it occurred to you it simply ran a simulation of the recurring conflict on itself, and determined that if it was part of the conflict and wasn't trying to stop the inevitable destruction of Organics, it would have tried to wipe out all organics itself? Don't you think that maybe it just saved some Synthetics from the Organic/Synthetic wars and asked them what they'd do to survive?

Maybe it just understands its own kind better than we do.

[Rotward]

Obadiah wrote...

@KaiserShep
The Catalyst is a Synthetic. Has it occurred to you it simply ran a simulation of the recurring conflict on itself, and determined that if it was part of the conflict and wasn't trying to stop the inevitable destruction of Organics, it would have tried to wipe out all organics itself? Don't you think that maybe it just saved some Synthetics from the Organic/Synthetic wars and asked them what they'd do to survive?

Maybe it just understands its own kind better than we do.

That's as rediculous as saying that every form of sentient organic life behaves the same way. Just because it's synthetic doesn't mean it understands all forms of synthetic life.

The catalyst might THINK it understands all synthetic life, though. 

[Obadiah]

Rotward wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

@KaiserShep
The Catalyst is a Synthetic. Has it occurred to you it simply ran a simulation of the recurring conflict on itself, and determined that if it was part of the conflict and wasn't trying to stop the inevitable destruction of Organics, it would have tried to wipe out all organics itself? Don't you think that maybe it just saved some Synthetics from the Organic/Synthetic wars and asked them what they'd do to survive?

Maybe it just understands its own kind better than we do.

That's as rediculous as saying that every form of sentient organic life behaves the same way. Just because it's synthetic doesn't mean it understands all forms of synthetic life.

The catalyst might THINK it understands all synthetic life, though. 

They don't have to behave the same way. That's why I said that maybe the Catalyst just asked some other Synthetics from the wars.

[Sir DeLoria]

What are you trying to say with this thread? Are you further trying to prove that AIs are a dangerous menace and need to be wiped out or even better, never created?

Although a magical weapon that wipes out all organics makes no sense whatsoever. Not like the Crucible makes sense, but at least there is a fairly valid explanation as to how it destroys Synthetics(Reaper code).

[JasonShepard]

Necanor wrote...

What are you trying to say with this thread? Are you further trying to prove that AIs are a dangerous menace and need to be wiped out or even better, never created?

Although a magical weapon that wipes out all organics makes no sense whatsoever. Not like the Crucible makes sense, but at least there is a fairly valid explanation as to how it destroys Synthetics(Reaper code).

I'm sorry, but an energy wave that destroys synthetics based on what software they are carrying never really made sense to me. I prefer the EMP explanation for Destroy. (Which would pretty much wipe out any software anywhere, hence why all synthetics are affected - not just those with Reaper code.)

As for a weapon that wipes out all organics - how about a galaxy-wide radiation blast, deployed by something similar to the Crucible? To paraphrase TIM's speech on the Collector Base: "A massive radiation pulse would kill all of the Organics, but leave their machinery and technology intact!"

EDIT:

Obadiah is free to correct me here, but I think his point is this:

Assume some Synthetics develop in a post-Destroy galaxy. They will be among Organic cultures that have shown they are willing to sacrifice all Synthetics to save themselves.
If those Synthetics feel threatened by Organics, using a weapon that would wipe out all Organics is somewhat justifiable since Organics have already used such a weapon against Synthetics.

Modifié par JasonShepard, 30 novembre 2013 - 06:16 .

[Obadiah]

@JasonShepard

That is part of it, but also that the Crucible's mere existence puts a weapon of its kind, or an implementation of its effect, on the table. It's sort of the new high water-mark for a solution to conflict, which because of the way capabilities escalate, is one more piece of evidence that the other side (Synthetics) will duplicate or surpass it.

A weapon isn't a threat unless you're willing to use it. Synthetics now know the anti-AI weapon was built.

Modifié par Obadiah, 30 novembre 2013 - 06:45 .

[SwobyJ]

I love how a massive *radiation* pulse is somehow illustrated by a blue blast.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

SwobyJ wrote...

I love how a massive *radiation* pulse is somehow illustrated by a blue blast.

Simple... organics are teh evulz to bioware

[SwobyJ]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

I love how a massive *radiation* pulse is somehow illustrated by a blue blast.

Simple... organics are teh evulz to bioware

You mean chaos?


Organics are teh good in ME1, teh evulz in ME2, but maybe there's some agreement to be made in ME3. Or not. Your choice, especially when it seems to invalidate free will to get that agreement made (at that final point of ME3; future games might be better for it, hehe).

Modifié par SwobyJ, 30 novembre 2013 - 07:49 .

[Obadiah]

SwobyJ wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

I love how a massive *radiation* pulse is somehow illustrated by a blue blast.

Simple... organics are teh evulz to bioware

You mean chaos?


Organics are teh good in ME1, teh evulz in ME2, but maybe there's some agreement to be made in ME3. Or not. Your choice, especially when it seems to invalidate free will to get that agreement made (at that final point of ME3; future games might be better for it, hehe).

It does sort of invalidate free will.

Shepard struggles to break free the of the artifical pattern of the Reaper cycles, and when he does he finds the Catalyst is trying to stop yet another pattern imposed by nature, one leading to the destruction of all Organics. As powerful as the Catalyst was, it still just became part of the pattern.

[KaiserShep]

Obadiah wrote...

@KaiserShep
The Catalyst is a Synthetic. Has it occurred to you it simply ran a simulation of the recurring conflict on itself, and determined that if it was part of the conflict and wasn't trying to stop the inevitable destruction of Organics, it would have tried to wipe out all organics itself? Don't you think that maybe it just saved some Synthetics from the Organic/Synthetic wars and asked them what they'd do to survive?

Maybe it just understands its own kind better than we do.

What it might have done doesn't matter, and simulations don't really mean much to me. They're based on a limited set of rules that it knows or assumes, but don't necessarily account for all of the variables, which would continually change as new organisms and synthetics replace the old ones. What it may have asked synthetics of the past does not apply a universal rule to synthetics of the future. In the end, we don't know what it did, how it gathered its data, or how tainted its data might be on account of its very widespread influence (indoctrination, hacking, relays/accelerating technological development galaxy-wide and wiping out trillions may all cause massive ripple effects in the nature of the galaxy that it has no way to anticipate). 

Synthetics wouldn't transcend our ability to comprehend, so understanding them should be no greater a feat than the Catalyst's understanding of them, but I suspect that the Catalyst doesn't quite get organics as much as it would like.

[Obadiah]

@KaiserShep
So, bascially you don't believe the Catalyst by personal absolute declaration, and you think it's conclusions based on multi-million year existence, no matter what the basis of it, is more religion than science.

Got it.

Modifié par Obadiah, 01 décembre 2013 - 01:18 .

[SwobyJ]

Obadiah wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

I love how a massive *radiation* pulse is somehow illustrated by a blue blast.

Simple... organics are teh evulz to bioware

You mean chaos?


Organics are teh good in ME1, teh evulz in ME2, but maybe there's some agreement to be made in ME3. Or not. Your choice, especially when it seems to invalidate free will to get that agreement made (at that final point of ME3; future games might be better for it, hehe).

It does sort of invalidate free will.

Shepard struggles to break free the of the artifical pattern of the Reaper cycles, and when he does he finds the Catalyst is trying to stop yet another pattern imposed by nature, one leading to the destruction of all Organics. As powerful as the Catalyst was, it still just became part of the pattern.

We all be stuck in a moral vaccum.

Symbolizm.

[Obadiah]

SwobyJ wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

I love how a massive *radiation* pulse is somehow illustrated by a blue blast.

Simple... organics are teh evulz to bioware

You mean chaos?


Organics are teh good in ME1, teh evulz in ME2, but maybe there's some agreement to be made in ME3. Or not. Your choice, especially when it seems to invalidate free will to get that agreement made (at that final point of ME3; future games might be better for it, hehe).

It does sort of invalidate free will.

Shepard struggles to break free the of the artifical pattern of the Reaper cycles, and when he does he finds the Catalyst is trying to stop yet another pattern imposed by nature, one leading to the destruction of all Organics. As powerful as the Catalyst was, it still just became part of the pattern.

We all be stuck in a moral vaccum.

Symbolizm.

Are we? Isn't the ending about how we chose to break the pattern?

[SwobyJ]

We find a new solution... yes... in a moral vaccum.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 01 décembre 2013 - 01:32 .

[Rotward]

Obadiah wrote...

Rotward wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

@KaiserShep
The Catalyst is a Synthetic. Has it occurred to you it simply ran a simulation of the recurring conflict on itself, and determined that if it was part of the conflict and wasn't trying to stop the inevitable destruction of Organics, it would have tried to wipe out all organics itself? Don't you think that maybe it just saved some Synthetics from the Organic/Synthetic wars and asked them what they'd do to survive?

Maybe it just understands its own kind better than we do.

That's as rediculous as saying that every form of sentient organic life behaves the same way. Just because it's synthetic doesn't mean it understands all forms of synthetic life.

The catalyst might THINK it understands all synthetic life, though. 

They don't have to behave the same way. That's why I said that maybe the Catalyst just asked some other Synthetics from the wars.

No matter how many humans I survey, I can't know how other sapients might behave. The catalyst can survey all the synthetics he wants, he won't know how the next generation of synthetics will act. Especially considering the next generation is built by totally different life forms.

Modifié par Rotward, 02 décembre 2013 - 01:06 .