144 réponses à ce sujet

[Rasofe]

The catalyst is an idiot anyway. Did you guys hear how it pitched Synthesis?
"Organics seek perfection through technology". Nope. We seek a lot of things through technology, but in general organics don't chase perfection at all. Even perfectionists are such because of a more pressing necessity.
"Synthetics will have the full understanding of organics." Right. Because we've got all the understanding and answers just in our pockets, ready to give them to anyone who wants. Understanding is one of life's greatest challenges, to imply that we have it intrinsically because we're made out of blood is... silly.
It's literally wrong about both parties. Facts disprove its conjectures. This isn't because of the limitations of organic reasoning - computers use the same kind of reasoning, the same boolean rules. They just do it much faster. It is simply wrong.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Also couldn't the Crucible lead to escalation between different Organics. The device seems to have enough energy or power or whatever to kill anything specific if it's refined enough. Couldn't the other Organics races fear that another Organic race is building their own Crucible as some sort of deterrent or war machine?

[Rasofe]

But Kurzwell wasn't on the ending. It was written by Walters and Hudson, no?
You're saying they got suckered in by his ideas enough to cite "artistic integrity"?
I really feel they could've improved control and destroy if they weren't trying to justify synthesis so badly.

Modifié par Rasofe, 02 décembre 2013 - 12:32 .

[Rasofe]

Dunno, I've never met a physical chemist, theoretical physicist, biochemist, ecologist or medical doctor who believes that technology will result in perfection. Those are all technical sciences, by the way.
And these guys are writers, not robotics engineers.

It's not much different from the transcendence ending in Alpha Centauri. That wasn't so much technology as joining consciousness with a whole eco-system. This isn't as much a religious ideal as just a non-anthropocentric one. It's still basically wrong though, and the only way anyone can convince you it's right is by preaching, guilt-tripping and other forms of manipulation.

[Obadiah]

I took the line, "Organics seek perfection through technology," as a way of saying Organics use technology as tools to give themselves capabilities they wouldn't normally have. In the MEU genetic manipulation is already common to improve the performance of soldiers, and of course we can't forget biotic brain implants.

Modifié par Obadiah, 02 décembre 2013 - 01:26 .

[Darks1d3]

StreetMagic wrote...

Rasofe wrote...

Dunno, I've never met a physical chemist, theoretical physicist, biochemist, ecologist or medical doctor who believes that technology will result in perfection. Those are all technical sciences, by the way.
And these guys are writers, not robotics engineers.

It's not much different from the transcendence ending in Alpha Centauri. That wasn't so much technology as joining consciousness with a whole eco-system. This isn't as much a religious ideal as just a non-anthropocentric one. It's still basically wrong though, and the only way anyone can convince you it's right is by preaching, guilt-tripping and other forms of manipulation.

It's not about non-anthropocentrism, but ultimately contempt for the entire material world as a whole. It's Gnosticism at it's core. "Are we more than our thoughts?"

This is even more of a reason for me to pick destroy. I don't need some idea of transcendence. Hell, I headcannon that post-destroy is just like the end of the butlerian jihad. Organics now have a chance to evolve to a point where they don't need  synthetics. Maybe produce the equivalent of mentats. I think Mordib's genetic line has the potential for this.(Yes, I know Erasmus, a sentient machine, trained the first one in dune lore. I'm just saying). 

As to the OP, if synthetics were ever created again, I don't think they would waste their time creating the equivalent of the crucible. I think they would spend time creating virulent plagues to release on every habited planet or use atomics to wipe out everyone on said planet.

[Rasofe]

Oh man. The butlerian Jihad? Really?
Dune and Mass Effect are seperate worlds guys. I know the second is inspired by the first, but still. In the ME universe there's seriously no sensible reason to believe the synthetics are "out to get you".
Besides, who would want to live in the Dune universe anyway? It's a few alien races and some OTT away from becoming WH40K.

Gnosticism and its equivalents never made sense to me. The whole idea of knowledge that is acquired without experience is self-contradictory. But I really don't read that far into the "transcendental endings". It's enough that they are transcendental for me to reject them on the basis that they violate the first principle.

Modifié par Rasofe, 02 décembre 2013 - 03:16 .

[Darks1d3]

Rasofe wrote...

Oh man. The butlerian Jihad? Really?
Dune and Mass Effect are seperate worlds guys. I know the second is inspired by the first, but still. In the ME universe there's seriously no sensible reason to believe the synthetics are "out to get you".
Besides, who would want to live in the Dune universe anyway? It's a few alien races and some OTT away from becoming WH40K.

Gnosticism and its equivalents never made sense to me. The whole idea of knowledge that is acquired without experience is self-contradictory. But I really don't read that far into the "transcendental endings". It's enough that they are transcendental for me to reject them on the basis that they violate the first principle.

To be fair, I didn't say anything about wanting the ME universe becoming the dune universe. If I wanted to visit the dune universe, I'd read the books(and the aspect of there only being humans in the whole universe in the dune books kind of baffled me). More or less, I was theorizing/head cannoning on what may happen after a destroy setting. Didn't mean to give off that impression.

Modifié par Darks1d3, 02 décembre 2013 - 03:34 .

[Rasofe]

Well the distinction is pretty heavy. In the Duneverse there's faith and prophecy, in MEU there's hope and choice. The setting motifs don't mesh, so it's unlikely that any changes will happen that will make one setting more like the other.

Remember, this is fiction - fiction doesn't run on causality, it runs on narrative. Example: IRL we could expect the Council races to have conquered humanity immediately when they found them, because they're pretty similar to humans and that's what humanity would've done. In the game story because of the theme of the story, the Council races let them be and allowed expansion and many concessions, for the sake of diversity.

The same applies to synthetics. We don't really know what we can expect from synthetics IRL, but it's just incoherent to have a game arguing for the possibility of diversity and then try to prove that artificial intelligences will always destroy their creators unless they're turned into organics themselves.

[KaiserShep]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

Also couldn't the Crucible lead to escalation between different Organics. The device seems to have enough energy or power or whatever to kill anything specific if it's refined enough. Couldn't the other Organics races fear that another Organic race is building their own Crucible as some sort of deterrent or war machine?

It seems to me that such a venture is a waste of time and resources, because the capability of destroying an entire star system is well within the grasp of the advanced races in the MEU. If you want to deal with an enemy species in the most extreme manner possible, just wipe out their sun or blanket their planet with asteroids.

[Rasofe]

Or hit the nearest Mass Relay with a sufficiently big brick.

"I make bad, bad choices. So many choices."

Modifié par Rasofe, 02 décembre 2013 - 04:32 .

[KaiserShep]

I suppose there's that, but I imagine that would be more or less an option better suited for extremists who have no interest in the relay infrastructure.

[ImaginaryMatter]

KaiserShep wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

Also couldn't the Crucible lead to escalation between different Organics. The device seems to have enough energy or power or whatever to kill anything specific if it's refined enough. Couldn't the other Organics races fear that another Organic race is building their own Crucible as some sort of deterrent or war machine?

It seems to me that such a venture is a waste of time and resources, because the capability of destroying an entire star system is well within the grasp of the advanced races in the MEU. If you want to deal with an enemy species in the most extreme manner possible, just wipe out their sun or blanket their planet with asteroids.

I don't know, it still seems pretty viable to me. I mean if it can be built with supply lines during a galactic size war, I can imagine any race building it pretty simply in peace time. But that's not exactly what I was getting at, so I'm sorry if I wasn't clear.

The point I was getting at is why specifically the Crucible will lead to the escalation of conflict between Organics and Synthetics. For one the Crucible isn't really a anti-synthetic weapon -- it certainly has that function, as built in ME3 -- but it is only one function; it's not even clear if it was designed to actually target all Synthetics instead of just some common weakness that Synthetics happen to share with the Reapers (what if the designers didn't even know it would have any collateral damage). For all we know it was actually built by some AI race that wanted to defeat the Reapers too. I mean almost next to nothing is known about the device other than it is 'little more than a power source' that is 'adaptive in design' and has three known arbitrary functions (the 'destroy' option is triggered by shooting at the thing, is that even the purpose it was designed for?)

At the end of the day the thing is just a giant plot device battery. Is it possible that Synthetics could view it as a symbol of grand scale anti-Synthetic sentiment? Sure, why not. But that seems as likely as a single Organic race fearing another Organic race in possession of the weapon, resulting in an organic race building an even larger doomsday device that could result in the destruction of all organic life. Is there really any difference in the tensions between the two groups that doesn't exist between any other race, be they both organics or both synthetics?

[Obadiah]

I saw the Crucible as primarily a Destroy weapon, because, well, to fire it you just break a valve that was preventing it from firing. All other options appear to require some extra intervention on the part of Shepard, or someone not indoctrinated (or at least not fully controlled).

Because the Crucible is so crude by the Catalyst's standards, it could be described as "merely" a power source and re-purposed for something else. In addition, Destroy was the intended use by this cycle before the Catalyst was encountered, its side-effects were described, and the other options were given.

Of course, among Organics, if they can build an anti-other-race weapon it could lead to escalation, but there are already weapons like that - biological weapons. One was tested on Omega, one was used on the Krogan which as Mordin described could have been tailored to just wipe them out.

ImaginaryMatter...
...
Is there really any difference in the tensions between the two groups that doesn't exist between any other race, be they both organics or both synthetics?

The big difference is that all Organic life in the galaxy would be wiped out, the way all AI in the galaxy can be wiped out by the Crucible. That seems to me like a much bigger step than wiping out an enemy.

Modifié par Obadiah, 17 janvier 2014 - 01:23 .

[Iakus]

Obadiah wrote...

The ending is further evidence of the Catalyst's conclusion of the inevitable destruction of all Organics.

Consider, the Reapers themselves are an example of the harsh judgements or decisions that AI are capable of making, and the power they can harness to implement those decisions. The Crucible weapon is an example of the kind of retaliation that power could bring, an anti-AI/tech weapon that could be fired on a galactic scale that could wipe out all AI. The Crucible fired in Destroy is essentially Organics doing to AI the thing that the Catalyst believes AI will do to Organics.

In terms of escalation, the Mass Effect 3 climax puts the MEU one step away from the AI building something similar, and eventually launching it on Organics.

Sounds at least as legit as the created always rebelling agaisnt their creators and conflict being inevitable.

Of course, I don't believe in any of that either...

[Rasofe]

iakus wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

The ending is further evidence of the Catalyst's conclusion of the inevitable destruction of all Organics.

Consider, the Reapers themselves are an example of the harsh judgements or decisions that AI are capable of making, and the power they can harness to implement those decisions. The Crucible weapon is an example of the kind of retaliation that power could bring, an anti-AI/tech weapon that could be fired on a galactic scale that could wipe out all AI. The Crucible fired in Destroy is essentially Organics doing to AI the thing that the Catalyst believes AI will do to Organics.

In terms of escalation, the Mass Effect 3 climax puts the MEU one step away from the AI building something similar, and eventually launching it on Organics.

Sounds at least as legit as the created always rebelling agaisnt their creators and conflict being inevitable.

Of course, I don't believe in any of that either...

Obediah's statements are directly based on that premise, so it's exactly as legit. As in, not really legit.