( First of all quarians and geth don't count)
But this could open up a whole new conflict all together. Would it even be possible for two sapients to evolve on the same planet.
In the next game I would like to see two new sentient species that evolved on the same planet
Débuté par
Argetfalcon
, nov. 23 2013 09:05
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#2
Posté 23 novembre 2013 - 09:10
Artifex_Imperius
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Those species would have to be more peaceful than the asari
if they are hostile surely they would have not past the nuclear age.
the planet would nid to be vast and resource plenty.
if they are hostile surely they would have not past the nuclear age.
the planet would nid to be vast and resource plenty.
Modifié par Artifex_Imperius, 23 novembre 2013 - 09:14 .
#3
Posté 23 novembre 2013 - 01:56
Navasha
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Theoretically, no. There is a law in ecology that no two species can occupy the same niche at the same time. An advanced intelligent species tends to take up a very large niche on their world. One species would always have some advantage that would put it statistically on top. In the competition for resources, that species would eventually push the other one out.
Now, it would be conceivable to have two completely and dramatically separate niches on a planetary surface. They would have to be very different areas and each species would have had to evolve to have the advantage in that area. For example a flying species that evolved on the mountaintops and an underground species that developed in caves. Each would have a tremendous advantage in their own habitat so that they could never truly push the other to extinction.
This wouldn't violate that law, since the two dramatically different habitats could qualify as different niches.
Edit: They wouldn't have to peaceful then either. In fact, being aggressive toward each other would be most likely as the evolutionary pressure for each to develop intelligence.
Now, it would be conceivable to have two completely and dramatically separate niches on a planetary surface. They would have to be very different areas and each species would have had to evolve to have the advantage in that area. For example a flying species that evolved on the mountaintops and an underground species that developed in caves. Each would have a tremendous advantage in their own habitat so that they could never truly push the other to extinction.
This wouldn't violate that law, since the two dramatically different habitats could qualify as different niches.
Edit: They wouldn't have to peaceful then either. In fact, being aggressive toward each other would be most likely as the evolutionary pressure for each to develop intelligence.
Modifié par Navasha, 23 novembre 2013 - 01:58 .
#4
Posté 23 novembre 2013 - 02:42
shodiswe
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It would seem unlikely to happen.
What Navasha said might possibly work but when a species evolves to the point where humans have evoled these days one would surely exterminate the other in their quest for resources and their need to feed their ever growing population.
Then they once the other people is gone they keep spreadign all over and consume all available resources until they reach a point where their world can no longer sustain their population.
Then you get mass deaths, violence, wars, destruction of already scarse resources, slavery, canibalism.
In a petridish where you grow germs it usualy ends with the last microbe dying in the waste of their chemicalwarfare and starvation.
Kind of what happend to Thanes people. The Salarians are special in the way that they actualy seem capable of regulating their numbers.
I think Humanity will prefer extinction to a Salarian solution.
EDIT: Itmight not bea conscious choice but a non-choice that is the end result of countless other choices where people think they can cope with an ever growing population in a limited habitat, and constantly push the issue asside for someone else to worry about, at a later date. Each decision will result in whatever minimal action nessesary to postpone the issue for a later date.
It would also explain why SETI is having such a hard time. Whenever a species grows inteligent enough to become dominant and cure most diseases and overcome natural threats they immediately overpopulate their habitat resulting in a dead world.
What Navasha said might possibly work but when a species evolves to the point where humans have evoled these days one would surely exterminate the other in their quest for resources and their need to feed their ever growing population.
Then they once the other people is gone they keep spreadign all over and consume all available resources until they reach a point where their world can no longer sustain their population.
Then you get mass deaths, violence, wars, destruction of already scarse resources, slavery, canibalism.
In a petridish where you grow germs it usualy ends with the last microbe dying in the waste of their chemicalwarfare and starvation.
Kind of what happend to Thanes people. The Salarians are special in the way that they actualy seem capable of regulating their numbers.
I think Humanity will prefer extinction to a Salarian solution.
EDIT: Itmight not bea conscious choice but a non-choice that is the end result of countless other choices where people think they can cope with an ever growing population in a limited habitat, and constantly push the issue asside for someone else to worry about, at a later date. Each decision will result in whatever minimal action nessesary to postpone the issue for a later date.
It would also explain why SETI is having such a hard time. Whenever a species grows inteligent enough to become dominant and cure most diseases and overcome natural threats they immediately overpopulate their habitat resulting in a dead world.
Modifié par shodiswe, 23 novembre 2013 - 02:48 .
#5
Posté 23 novembre 2013 - 02:49
shodiswe
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The end is near 
Modifié par shodiswe, 23 novembre 2013 - 02:52 .
#6
Posté 23 novembre 2013 - 03:40
Armass81
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What if the other species was hidden, like subterranenan or something so the two evolved on the same planet, but didnt really meet each other until space age.
And theres already one species that has evolved sapience while other occupied its world, the leviathans. They likely dominated that thrall species on their planet to get into space.
And theres already one species that has evolved sapience while other occupied its world, the leviathans. They likely dominated that thrall species on their planet to get into space.
Modifié par Armass81, 23 novembre 2013 - 03:43 .
#7
Posté 23 novembre 2013 - 04:10
Navasha
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Part of the issue is what resources would those races need? If they utilize the same resources, then they will inevitably come into conflict. If they developed extremely unique technology or were separated by some immense obstacle, it could work.
For instance, one develops tech similar to ours - metallurgy, electronics. The other would have to have some advanced organic equivalent like genetic manipulation, selective breeding to shape living things into tools.
An obstacle would have to be relatively insurmountable. An example would be a really deep ocean species, where its just not too feasible to have any kind of encounter. Though even now we are starting to be able to send deep sea probes here on Earth. I would say that if we encountered another intelligent species down there, fear would likely dictate that we attempt to neutralize them.
For instance, one develops tech similar to ours - metallurgy, electronics. The other would have to have some advanced organic equivalent like genetic manipulation, selective breeding to shape living things into tools.
An obstacle would have to be relatively insurmountable. An example would be a really deep ocean species, where its just not too feasible to have any kind of encounter. Though even now we are starting to be able to send deep sea probes here on Earth. I would say that if we encountered another intelligent species down there, fear would likely dictate that we attempt to neutralize them.
#8
Posté 23 novembre 2013 - 04:27
Rasofe
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It's difficult to say. Sentient humanity has existed for a blip of the span of evolution's existance.
Even if there were two isolated systems, statistically they have no reason to evolve sentient life at the same time.
I don't know. Maybe if we consider cats a sapient species, the answer is more or less obvious. Oh, and there's dolphins, but they don't have nukes. I'm certain the felines have nukes stored away somewhere.
Even if there were two isolated systems, statistically they have no reason to evolve sentient life at the same time.
I don't know. Maybe if we consider cats a sapient species, the answer is more or less obvious. Oh, and there's dolphins, but they don't have nukes. I'm certain the felines have nukes stored away somewhere.
Modifié par Rasofe, 23 novembre 2013 - 04:28 .
#9
Posté 23 novembre 2013 - 04:40
Armass81
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It could work if the other sapient species was long time unrecognizable to us and lived in a different environment, like the oceans. For instance, In Nivens Known Space universe humans eventually found out that whales and dolphins were actually sapient, only that they couldnt build any technology because they had no grasping hands. Funny thing was, one of the first thing the cetaceans did when they learned of the human culture at large and communication, was to sue us in court for all the whaling we did back in the days, before the cetacean rights act had passed. Man they must have really been pissed at Japan and Norway.
Or how about 2 sapient species that evolved inside the same solar system? Like say for comparison, if the old myths of advanced life on Mars were true on ours, so wed have earthlings and martians.
Or how about 2 sapient species that evolved inside the same solar system? Like say for comparison, if the old myths of advanced life on Mars were true on ours, so wed have earthlings and martians.
Modifié par Armass81, 23 novembre 2013 - 04:58 .
#10
Posté 23 novembre 2013 - 04:58
Rasofe
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You're saying dolphins aren't sapient, though?
#11
Posté 23 novembre 2013 - 04:59
Armass81
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Rasofe wrote...
You're saying dolphins aren't sapient, though?
Depends on what ground you judge sapience.
I think theyre smart and all, but we cant really say if theyre sapient, since even if they truly were, it might be really different for them and unrecognizable to us at large. They live in a very diffrent environment after all.
Modifié par Armass81, 23 novembre 2013 - 05:01 .
#12
Posté 23 novembre 2013 - 05:01
Rasofe
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No, but that's a prerequisite of being humanity, not sapience.
I'd never back down from humanity being superior, but if we don't recognise our enemy we're in for some nasty surprises.
I'd never back down from humanity being superior, but if we don't recognise our enemy we're in for some nasty surprises.
#13
Posté 23 novembre 2013 - 05:02
Yougotcarved1
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shodiswe wrote...
Whenever a species grows inteligent enough to become dominant and cure most diseases and overcome natural threats they immediately overpopulate their habitat resulting in a dead world.
Based on our sample size of one species, this would appear not to be true
#14
Posté 23 novembre 2013 - 05:03
Armass81
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Rasofe wrote...
No, but that's a prerequisite of being humanity, not sapience.
I'd never back down from humanity being superior, but if we don't recognise our enemy we're in for some nasty surprises.
For an "enemy" they show real compassion tough... havent you heard of dolphins helping drowning humans and fending of sharks?
#15
Posté 23 novembre 2013 - 05:12
Rasofe
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I'm sure they have their Machiavellian persuits, the porcupids.
#16
Posté 23 novembre 2013 - 11:28
Zan51
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Yep, try this article. http://www.slate.com...own_babies.html This has been known for a long time, and every year there are a few pix in newspapers about it. Seems we all have that same dark side. Lions do it too, when the head of the pride changes, to ensure only their offspring survive.
2 top predators on the same planet is unlikely especially if in similar niches - since one is likely to kill the other off possibly before even language has fully developed, at a time it is instinctive behavior. Part of that is natural xenophobia which helps to keep the group or tribe safe by being wary of any outsiders.
2 top predators on the same planet is unlikely especially if in similar niches - since one is likely to kill the other off possibly before even language has fully developed, at a time it is instinctive behavior. Part of that is natural xenophobia which helps to keep the group or tribe safe by being wary of any outsiders.
#17
Posté 24 novembre 2013 - 04:05
JonathonPR
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Ah I see that my idea for a binary race (originally a workaround to allow ME1 statues be prothians along with the collectors also being protheans) has found root in other minds. "To solve the apparent retcon of the protheans from ME1 to ME2 I suggest that they might instead be a binary race. The two species evolved on the same planet and formed a symbiotic society. The protheans from ME1 were not physically agressive but were advanced tool users capable of working at a higher grade of percision and conceptual development. The species that the collectors were based on was much more physically and mentally capable as hunters, warriors, and explorers. The first race invented the bow. The second race hunted. The first race conceptualized agriculture. The second race gathered the animals to be domesticated. When they started to explore the galaxy the first race worked to develop alongside other civilizations. The second race made sure the galaxy was "safe" for the first race and the second race." - me http://social.biowar...65/polls/42817/
Many forms of symbiosis exist in nature that could be used as an example. Ants will sometimes take a protector role for insects that also produce usable byproducts. Look at humans and dogs. There is evidence of a social link going back almost 100,000 years to proto humans and dogs. The separate environment idea is good as well. It could be that both are land based but live on a planet with extrems in temperature and had to evolve in different directions of habitation.
Also " I can do larger plot points and some setting work but I am horrible at dialog and characterization.
I do like to work with the assumption that the Protheans were a binary race. Two species that evolved on the same same planet and formed a symbiotic relationship. Like how some species of ants will protect caterpillars that produce a honey like chemical that the ants can eat. The Reapers only needed the collectors to be scouts and soldier, not scientists. The other half of the race might have been used by the reapers for some other purpose. It was a species that was able to reverse engineer Reaper technology to the point of replicating a relay within the allotted time of a cycle. Something like http://fc01.devianta...keg-d5k10lm.jpg ." "I liked the look of Ilos from the first Mass Effect and some of the concept art they had for the living protheans before they went with the Collector design. It allows both designs to exist. The alternative is to throw out the design of the Collectors and Javic as the base form of the protheans and have the collector form be the result of a techno organic symbiote that rewrites its own code based on the hosts dna. The husks are more of a quick conversion that has nanites use the host as food while the nanite replicate and take on the superficial form. The symbiote would create a servant that retained most of its skills but took a long time to create. Less cannon fodder and more specialized troops. Would also be an interesting mission to find out what had happened to a small colony ship that disappeared before reaching its destination and introduce new enemies based on races from the current cycle that had reproduced in the unexplored regions of the galaxy. It would also give a source for main antagonist ground sources. Like how when an Africanized Honey Bee is killed the rest of the swarm wakes up. Sovereign would not have used them because they are used to purge planet surfaces rather than fight in space. Loosing them means they have to spend more resources making new troops from they cycle they are currently wiping out. I also like exploring the social interactions within such a civilization. A less abusive version of the relationship between the Spartans and the Helots. In the case of the Protheans there is a race that finds it difficult to comprehend abstract concepts used in invention but highly adept at more immediately problem solving while the other would be the opposite. While one is developing the principles of tension and material resistance the other realises that the bow makes a great tool for hunting. One invents lasers to observe the interactions between photons and electrons while the other sees how it could be used in surgery or communication. Inventing particle accelerators require an understanding of electromagnetism. Using them as weapons does not." "Yes. What happens if you have a race that is very smart but does not have an instinctive expression of physical aggression? How would Einstein or plato fight a lion. On the other hand what does a race do if it has not invented agriculture when a drought happens, or medicine when some outbreak occurs. One race trampled the ground and made a useful path by their everyday behavior and the most direct route. The other built a road after seeing a path and gutters after it rained. Maybe several races were evolving on the same planet in competition with each other and the two species joined together out of necessity and continued the relationship and as they explored space. One species is bruce Lee and the other is Leonardo da Vinci. Both highly capable in their own field but not the other." - me in emails
Many forms of symbiosis exist in nature that could be used as an example. Ants will sometimes take a protector role for insects that also produce usable byproducts. Look at humans and dogs. There is evidence of a social link going back almost 100,000 years to proto humans and dogs. The separate environment idea is good as well. It could be that both are land based but live on a planet with extrems in temperature and had to evolve in different directions of habitation.
Also " I can do larger plot points and some setting work but I am horrible at dialog and characterization.
I do like to work with the assumption that the Protheans were a binary race. Two species that evolved on the same same planet and formed a symbiotic relationship. Like how some species of ants will protect caterpillars that produce a honey like chemical that the ants can eat. The Reapers only needed the collectors to be scouts and soldier, not scientists. The other half of the race might have been used by the reapers for some other purpose. It was a species that was able to reverse engineer Reaper technology to the point of replicating a relay within the allotted time of a cycle. Something like http://fc01.devianta...keg-d5k10lm.jpg ." "I liked the look of Ilos from the first Mass Effect and some of the concept art they had for the living protheans before they went with the Collector design. It allows both designs to exist. The alternative is to throw out the design of the Collectors and Javic as the base form of the protheans and have the collector form be the result of a techno organic symbiote that rewrites its own code based on the hosts dna. The husks are more of a quick conversion that has nanites use the host as food while the nanite replicate and take on the superficial form. The symbiote would create a servant that retained most of its skills but took a long time to create. Less cannon fodder and more specialized troops. Would also be an interesting mission to find out what had happened to a small colony ship that disappeared before reaching its destination and introduce new enemies based on races from the current cycle that had reproduced in the unexplored regions of the galaxy. It would also give a source for main antagonist ground sources. Like how when an Africanized Honey Bee is killed the rest of the swarm wakes up. Sovereign would not have used them because they are used to purge planet surfaces rather than fight in space. Loosing them means they have to spend more resources making new troops from they cycle they are currently wiping out. I also like exploring the social interactions within such a civilization. A less abusive version of the relationship between the Spartans and the Helots. In the case of the Protheans there is a race that finds it difficult to comprehend abstract concepts used in invention but highly adept at more immediately problem solving while the other would be the opposite. While one is developing the principles of tension and material resistance the other realises that the bow makes a great tool for hunting. One invents lasers to observe the interactions between photons and electrons while the other sees how it could be used in surgery or communication. Inventing particle accelerators require an understanding of electromagnetism. Using them as weapons does not." "Yes. What happens if you have a race that is very smart but does not have an instinctive expression of physical aggression? How would Einstein or plato fight a lion. On the other hand what does a race do if it has not invented agriculture when a drought happens, or medicine when some outbreak occurs. One race trampled the ground and made a useful path by their everyday behavior and the most direct route. The other built a road after seeing a path and gutters after it rained. Maybe several races were evolving on the same planet in competition with each other and the two species joined together out of necessity and continued the relationship and as they explored space. One species is bruce Lee and the other is Leonardo da Vinci. Both highly capable in their own field but not the other." - me in emails
#18
Posté 24 novembre 2013 - 05:23
Han Shot First
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Argetfalcon wrote...
( First of all quarians and geth don't count)
But this could open up a whole new conflict all together. Would it even be possible for two sapients to evolve on the same planet.
It is certainly possible. It happened on our own planet.
We are the only sapient species on the planet today, but that wasn't the case about 40,000 or 50,000 years ago. Things might be different had the Neanderthals not been driven into extinction by either climate change or competition with early modern humans.
#19
Posté 24 novembre 2013 - 03:12
Ruadh
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Two different species? Like, those that grew up without the internet and those that were brought up on it?
#20
Guest_Jesus Christ_*
Posté 24 novembre 2013 - 05:06
Guest_Jesus Christ_*
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ginner dave wrote...
Two different species? Like, those that grew up without the internet and those that were brought up on it?
You mean that species who went outside as children? I heard they were just a myth!
#21
Posté 24 novembre 2013 - 05:08
AlanC9
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Han Shot First wrote...
It is certainly possible. It happened on our own planet.
We are the only sapient species on the planet today, but that wasn't the case about 40,000 or 50,000 years ago. Things might be different had the Neanderthals not been driven into extinction by either climate change or competition with early modern humans.
Had it been Neaderthals crossing the land bridge to the Americas they'd stll be with us.
Harry Harrison used the separation of the continents for his Eden books, with the dinosaur-descended Yilane living in the Old World and quasi-humans evolving in the New World after the proto-Yilane went extinct there.
#22
Posté 24 novembre 2013 - 07:06
Argetfalcon
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I don't mean subspecies I mean to completely different species that evolve on same planet. Maybe on species is mammalian while the other reptilian. would it be possible for them to coexist
#23
Posté 24 novembre 2013 - 08:21
Br3admax
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Of course their status as a seperate species is still debated, so they don't really count.Han Shot First wrote...
Argetfalcon wrote...
( First of all quarians and geth don't count)
But this could open up a whole new conflict all together. Would it even be possible for two sapients to evolve on the same planet.
It is certainly possible. It happened on our own planet.
We are the only sapient species on the planet today, but that wasn't the case about 40,000 or 50,000 years ago. Things might be different had the Neanderthals not been driven into extinction by either climate change or competition with early modern humans.
#24
Posté 25 novembre 2013 - 12:43
Rasofe
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This is exactly what I mean by civilisation time-scale being infinitisimal to that of biological evolution. Whoever gets the upper hand in civilisation outdoes the one with biological advantage so fast that there's really no longevitous competition. For two sentient species to exist with separate civilisations is incredibly doubtful since it took a species like ****** sapiens millions of years to biologically formulate from habilis, while civilisations rise and fall in a matter of centuries or at best millenia.AlanC9 wrote...
Han Shot First wrote...
It is certainly possible. It happened on our own planet.
We are the only sapient species on the planet today, but that wasn't the case about 40,000 or 50,000 years ago. Things might be different had the Neanderthals not been driven into extinction by either climate change or competition with early modern humans.
Had it been Neaderthals crossing the land bridge to the Americas they'd stll be with us.
Harry Harrison used the separation of the continents for his Eden books, with the dinosaur-descended Yilane living in the Old World and quasi-humans evolving in the New World after the proto-Yilane went extinct there.
#25
Posté 25 novembre 2013 - 01:15
Daemul
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It depends, there might be a unknown civilisation thriving under the Earth's oceans for all we know. The Ocean makes up at least 70% of the Earth's surface, yet we have only explored 5-7% of the ocean floor and about 0.5% of the of the ocean itself, even less for the deep ocean. There could be any sort of sentient/sapient lifeform down there, maybe even Leviathan like.
Leviathan's evolved on Earth confirmed.
Leviathan's evolved on Earth confirmed.
Modifié par Daemul, 25 novembre 2013 - 01:17 .
