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[Vulpe]

 The qunari race and philosophy/religion are one of the most mysterious concepts to make an appareance in a RPG setting in some time. Their nature and philosophy are so alien that we don't really know to whom to compare them.

They have elements that remind of the Ottomans like the integrating of the conquered populations into their society ( they are a "little" less tolerant than the ottomans were ). Their military code remindes of the bushido code of the samurai. Their way of thinking seems similar with confucionism and they resemble the indians with their caste system , only that in their case it's more a circle that's formed from each caste. Their boats seem to be a combination of the Japanese medieval fortress like ships, but their are not restricted to the mainland and are efficient on sea , like the athenian trireme. They are a cocktail of The Orient. 

I will try to present you a more insighted theory regarding their nature and biology as a race and regarding their philosophy and origins as a culture.

 Biology and nature  :

I believe that the grey giants are a magically altered race, similar to the orcs from the Might & Magic univers. While the orcs from the M&M univers were altered using magic and demon blood, the qunari were altered using magic and dragon blood.

Why they altered themselves or who did it ? I have two subtheories that might combine themselves in one way ore another:

a) I believe that in ancient times, before The Veil, all dragons were sentient. Due to the fact that their connection with The Fade was weakened by the creation of The Veil, they would regress to a more bestial state. That is why I believe that The Old Gods and possibly Flemeth ( I believe that she's of a similar nature with them ) chosed a pre-existent members of a race to be altered and transformed in a chosen race, a servand/guardian like race - the grey giants.

The grey giants altered themselves because they were dragon worshiping people.

This two sub-theories might connect themselves by the fact that The Old Gods only started the alterations prior to their hybernation and the grey giant race would have to continue the alterations after they went to slumber.

What makes me think of this ? 

1)In Dragon Age: The Silent Grove, Yavana says that there was a time "before the Veil, before the mysteries were forgotten," when dragons ruled the skies.

2)According to Sten, The Tome Of Koslun says that "the Old Gods were like unto dragons, as the first human kings were like unto ordinary men".

3)Sandal's prophecy : "One day the magic will come back. All of it. Everyone will be just like they were. The shadows will part, and the skies will open wide." . He might not refer only to dwarves, humans, elves and qunari, but also dragons.

4) BW concept art that puts a qunari and a dragon in the same image, their resemblance ( in the concept ) 



5) This.




I believe that they might have been human or elves prior to the alterations. While I was more inclined to believe that they were elves due to the elven genetic state and the pointy ears, now I'm more inclined to believe that they were humans. Why ?

1) They can grow beards.

2) According to Sten and what he says about The Tome Of Koslun and the information it contains regarding The Old Gods, it seems that the first other race they were aware of were the humans. Of course he might use humans as in "people", but I don't think that's the case here. I believe that he's referring to actual humans + he seems to know alot about reavers,dragon blood and its effects on the body ( the story of Calenhad).

That would mean that humans and the grey giants are originaly from the same continent. I will call this continent L.O.The.Q. ( Land Of The Qunari ) to make my life easier in what I am about to say regarding the qunari and kossith cultures, how they might have worked, how they were born and how they might have entered in a conflict that drove the Qunari ( grey giants that follow The Qun) and the humans away from Lotheq.

Society and culture:

Now that I covered their biological origin, I will focus on their society,the secrets that might be covered from the world and from most of the members of The Qun by some members of the Ariqun ( Qunari priesthood) and the kossith culture.

What strikes me as one of the most strangest thing regarding them is the somehow privileged treatment that the hornless qunari giants get, despite their doctrine that focuses on equality and competence.

Why would they give attention to something so trivial as the absence of a pair of horns ? Most of you would say that this individual are better for interacting with the other races. I agree, but I think there is more.

As I said earlier, when I talked about their biology, I believe that they were altered by the use of dragon blood.
Wouldn't a individual that resembles the dragons more than the humans be more frightening, powerful, indimidating ?

Well, I believe that that's the way the kossith society functioned and it might function if it still exists ( and I believe it is ) in Lotheq.

The Kossith society would be similar with the indian caste system , only that individuals that show a higher concentration of draconic blood, more proeminent draconic features and possibly magic abilities ( normal and draconic in nature - like the "dragonfire" of Aurelian Titus ) would get more attention and consequently, a better life and a higher status in society . It would an almost real life copy of the indian caste system, that would be more focused on connections, draconic blood and magic power than on competence and proven aptitudes.

If we take this in consideration, the individuals that show the lesser presence of draconic blood and features would be treated as servants or even slaves. An individual like Sten would be a servant or a slaves in a kossith society if I am right. Also, the ones that show lesser draconic powers would be marginalized, regarding the presence or absence of the horns.

That's why I believe that The Qun appealed to the bigger and opressed part of the kossith society. While their current culture was based on blood, The Qun is based on competence and skill. I believe that The Qun is similar with Andrastianism in the way that it appeared and was assimilated by the oppressed part of the population that lived in a society in which it mattered more how you were born and who were your parents than what you are capable of, your skills, your competence.

I also belive that in origins, the Qunlat ( The Followers Of The Qun language ) was originally used as a code by the rebels.

I believe that The Qun is a philosophy/religion that was borned to fight opression. I also believe that the Qunari ( followers of the Qun ) refer to individuals outside The Qun as "bas" because of this reason - every grey giant that didn't join the rebellion was considered an object of the higher members in the kossith society and the name stucked.

The selective breeding program:

Now let's talk about their selective breeding program. Most of you would say that it exists to increase the changes of obtaining individuals better suited for a certain task. I believe that it's origins are more complicated.

I believe that it was originally created so that they would cleanse themselves of the draconic blood and I think that some higher members of The Ariqun still know this. That's why individuals like Sten get more attention - because they are more close to their original state, they are closer to being free of "the curse" of the dragon blood and their denied legacy. 

That might be also a reason why they are such heavy expansionists. We don't really know if they interbreed with other races, but if we think that they might have been humans I think it's at least possible. They could use the humans to accelerate their "healing" process.

I don't think that all of them are aware of this, just only some members of the priesthood. If this is true and if they make humans have intercourse with qunari(race), the priests can't really go on a spree with this without attracting unwanted attention. If it's true, they might need a higher population of human qunari to justify their combinations ( if they happen - I'm not very sure regarding this part of my theory because we don't really know if this happens )

Qunari and magic :

This would also explain their hate towards magic - magic and mages are the ones that turned them in what they are. Magic was used to opress them, to transform them and to kill them.
 
Qunari in Thedas:

I believe that the sole reason why the Qunari left Lotheq was because they were in a war with the kossith and they were losing it. The kossith colonist that were captured by the darkspawn were just refuges that escaped from Lotheq. Humans first arrived in Thedas to escape the Kossith forces because they might have been something similar with the Tevinter Empire, only that it might trasformed its captives in draconic blooded servants or it simply made their lives a living hell and they wanted to find a safer place, away from the war.

In conclusion, I believe that The Qun had the same faith as Andrastianism. While it started as a religion/philosophy that had the purpose of making life better and safer for everyone, it was transformed and reinterpreted by certain individuals to transform it in an intolerand and judging doctrine that could fuel expansionist policies.

EDIT

I have observed something new that might be used as a hind for the grey giants connection to the dragons  besides Titus dragonfire comment and their horns.

Their nails seem to grow in a claw like shape , similar to the ones of the dragons. Also, as you will see below, the claws seem to have a dark purple colour ( as do the fingers - this can be seen at the Arishok from DA 2 ).

I want to note that the hornless ones seem to have normal nails.

Another very importanant thing to note regarding the horns is that the females seem to have horns similar to the ones of the female High Dragon from the GameInformer cover. (more precisely Rasaan from the comics ; in this one they are the same as the males )

You will see below of what I'm talking about.

This one is obvious



The one that leads the attack ( the off-hand)



As for Rasaan, it seems she has normal nails as does Sten (last image below ). Still, it seems they planned to give him claws too.

The claws can be also seen on the grey giant slave  and in all qunari from DA2 ( even the Arishok - I might add that he seemed to have the most proeminent ones )

I think that this can also be used as a hint regarding their possible connection with the dragons.

EDIT 2

A comment of mine from another thread. Do to a chronic case of lazyness, I didn't try to integrate it in the rest of the theory so I'll just quote myself 

There are multiple hints than that one that directs us towards the possibility of the grey giant race being a magic and dragon blood altered race

1) The words of Titus

2)The concept art in which we can see that the grey giant horns have the same shape as the one of the new dragon model

3) Sten's knowledge regardnig the Old Gods, reavers and dragon blood. He claims that all are writen in the Tome Of Koslun - may I reminde you that Koslun lived on the other unknow continent ( I will call it The Land Of The Qunari - Lotheq for short )

4) Sten says "You know the history and you have seen the decaying idols that remain.Ther Old Gods granted power to their worshipers in exchange for sacrifices of blood"

First, remember that those were pre-Thedas invasion times. When Sten refers to the decaying idols he could refer only to the Old Gods or dragons in general. He also refers to them as idols, which can be interpreted as referring to Tevinte or, considering that they were placed in Lotheq during those times, it could have a more general tone to it and denote something about the kossith culture. Also, worshipers could be interpreted the same way ( tevinters or a more general approach ) and there is the parte with power for blood sacrifices that depends on how you take the previous two. 

Note : the man from that comic slide didn't look like a magister or any other culture in Thedas. He seemed to be of a more tribal origin.


5) Rasaan's horns have the same segmented patterns as the horns of the new dragon model ( I think I've also seen a male or two with the same segmented like horn in the comic )

6) Smother horns models, just like some of the dragons

7) The presence of claw like nails in some horned individuals. Sten,beside the lack of horns, seems to have normal nails.

8) The only persons/races to have yellow eye coloration are : the werewolves ( after the curse it's lifted only the males retain it. In DA2 the one we meet loses it as well), the witch from the part when Sten tells Calenhad's true story (which I think is old Flemeth), Titus, Flemeth and her daughters, the grey giant race and the dragons.

Beside the werewolves and grey giants (their connection hasn't been proved yet), all the other ones have a certain connection with dragons,dragon blood or dragon transformations

9) The only races that have red eye coloration are the dragons ( Yavana Silent Grove one ) and the grey giants.

I think that all this can be used as a hint regarding the possibility that the kossith culture  from Lotheq worshiped dragons and altered their race through magic and dragon blood.

IMPORTANT !!!

When discusing on this thread, please respect the following nomenclature to avoid confusion:

1) When referring to the race as a whole use the term "grey giants".

2) If you want to refer to the grey giants that follow The Qun use the term "qunari". Avoid using it as the first word in your sentences and make a parenthesis in which you mention that you refer to the race if you feel it's not clear.

3)Use "Qunari" when refering to all followers of The Qun, no matter the race. Avoid using it as the first word in your sentences and make a parenthesis in which you mention that you refer to the philosophy/ religion if you feel it's not clear.

4)Despite that many of you use the term "kossith" as an alternative for the race,please use it here only to refer to the culture of grey giants from Lotheq ( Land Of The Qunari ). It might cause confusion if you use it to refer to the race considering how I used it, so please respect my request.

5) When refering to the continent from which they came, please use the acronym/ name mentioned in the thread ( Lotheq ) so that we might ease the conversation.

THANK YOU !

Discuss


 

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 13 décembre 2013 - 06:08 .

[Cyr8]

On one hand you say that those without horns could be seen as slaves because they are less privileged - they lack horns or the dragon blood, and thus may be on the lower part of the Qunari food chain. On the other, you say they may be treated better than the rest because they lack horns, especially since the Qunari are trying to get rid of their dragon blood heritage. Two interesting considerations, but in your explanation above you don't come down definitively on which one you believe. So please say which one you personally would go with?

[Vulpe]

Cyr8 wrote...

On one hand you say that those without horns could be seen as slaves because they are less privileged - they lack horns or the dragon blood, and thus may be on the lower part of the Qunari food chain. On the other, you say they may be treated better than the rest because they lack horns, especially since the Qunari are trying to get rid of their dragon blood heritage. Two interesting considerations, but in your explanation above you don't come down definitively on which one you believe. So please say which one you personally would go with?

I believe that in the Kossith culture the ones that are more draconic get the preferencial treatement while in The Qunari society its reversed ( as seen with Sten). Sorry if I didn't make it clear. I will re-read it and make it clearer.

I am also inclined to believe that the kossith might be more reptilian in their appearance.

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 23 novembre 2013 - 03:11 .

[iOnlySignIn]

The horns of Dragons and Kossith need to be dissected first in order to validate or disprove such a theory.

But even without entering a fictional world with my scalpels I can make logical deductions.

First of all, Kossith are clearly mammals. Their horns resemble bull horns, and they have been called "oxmen" by others.

So it's reasonable to assume that their horns have the same nature as bull horns, i.e. "true" horns which are a layer of keratin covering a core of living bone.

In comparison, canon materials in DA have suggested in several ways that Dragon horns are not "true" horns, i.e. they do not have a bone core and are instead just keratin, similar to how the horns of rhinos are not "true" horns. Such canon materials include:

(1) Flemeth's transformation in DA2. Her horns are transformed into stylized hair, which suggests her horns are just that - hair - which is keratin. This is the same as a rhino's horn, which is basically a crop of matted hair.

(2) Various artwork of Dragons made by BioWare, as well as Dragon models in game. I'll just post them here and leave you to judge whether they

(A) Look like "true" horns, i.e. bone protrusions which are actually part of the skull;

( Look like "false" horns, which are basically facial hair - keratin - same as our hair, beard, and nails.







( seems much more likely to me, especially considering the abundance of smaller protrusions (let's call them spikes) in other parts of a Dragon's body, of the same nature as their "horns". Some of these are even arranged in patterns which can be described as irregular or random - which is another indicator that they are keratin, instead of bone, since bone patterns are fixed and determined by genetics.

At the very least, if Dragon horns are indeed true boney horns, then their numbers and patterns should be fixed within any single Dragon species, which means every Dragon we have seen in DA so far is from an entirely difference species, which is highly unlikely.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 23 novembre 2013 - 01:47 .

[iOnlySignIn]

Still, this theorizing is rather unnecessary. All you need to do is play an beta/alpha copy of DAI, chop off a Dragon's horn, and see if there's blood and marrow inside it.

Or you can ask a talking Dragon (should you find one) whether it trims its horns when they grow too long.

[Vulpe]

@iOnlySignIn

I tend to agree with on this matter. Those spikes and horns seem to be rather chaotic in their arrangement. If one of them breaks it would leave exposed bone marrow and that could lead to infections.

Still, we don't really know how resistant dragon bone is. If it's really bone, it might just be really strong and able to resist huge traumas. We can't know for sure.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Wouldn't keratin horns decay over time, leaving fossils hornless? Because we have come across a dragon skull where the horns seemed to be part of the skull still.
Also, the old dragon model is being redesigned for DA:I. World of Thedas has a picture of how dragons look now.

[EmperorSahlertz]

JulianWellpit wrote...

@iOnlySignIn

I tend to agree with on this matter. Those spikes and horns seem to be rather chaotic in their arrangement. If one of them breaks it would leave exposed bone marrow and that could lead to infections.

Still, we don't really know how resistant dragon bone is. If it's really bone, it might just be really strong and able to resist huge traumas. We can't know for sure.

Considering that dragonbone is literally used to make top tier armor, we do have some inkling to just how resistant dragonbones are.

[Vulpe]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Wouldn't keratin horns decay over time, leaving fossils hornless? Because we have come across a dragon skull where the horns seemed to be part of the skull still.
Also, the old dragon model is being redesigned for DA:I. World of Thedas has a picture of how dragons look now.

I'm aware of the skull you're talking about and that horns decay, but it takes a long amount of time to happen. The skull is there from the time when Ferelden was occupied by Orlais and I'm unaware of the amount of time a keratine horn needs to fully descompose. There are also other factors to take in consideration like the conditions they were kept in.

Still, we can't be sure of their real structure and as you said, the dragons are getting a redesign.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Considering that dragonbone is literally used to make top tier armor, we do have some inkling to just how resistant dragonbones are.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I was referring strictly to the horns and spikes. While they might still posses the resistance of the internal bones, their structure makes them less resistant than the bones that make, let's say, the limbs.

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 23 novembre 2013 - 03:04 .

[TheButterflyEffect]

Well, qunari horns are obviously keratin, or "false" horns, since they are able to remove them with no ill effects (and because of this, they would presumably grow back, so if they wanted to remain hornless they would need to "trim" them regularly).

And, about decay after death - whether keratin structures like hair and horns decay over time depends on environmental conditions. There are ancient Egyptian mummies that still clearly have their hair, despite the person being deceased for thousands of years.

Modifié par TheButterflyEffect, 23 novembre 2013 - 03:11 .

[Skyrunner_Morgan]

If the Kossith are descendants from dragons before the Fade. or were results from magical experiments then what are the role of the hornless Kossith that resemble humans more than their horned counterparts?
Sten from DA:O among others mostly mercenaries, were the first hornless Kossith we all saw and knew before their massive remake in DA2.

Could the horns have some sort of meaning of status in Qunari society?
The Arishok had the largest set I've seen on any Kossith and were decorated with golden rings. The Keresten, Sten, Arvaraad or Ashaad had smaller versions while the Serabas had their horns cut short then fitted with metallic caps presumably to prevent them from growing again.

[TheButterflyEffect]

Actually, to the qunari, lacking horns is, VERY ironically, seen as intimidating and scary looking.

[Reznore57]

In Par Vollen ,there is supposed to be some very old pictures , of Qunari like people being worshipped by humans.Those were created before the Qunari landed in Thedas.

Anyway I agree the Qunari are probably related to dragons somehow ...
But I think Qunari and humans left Thedas at some point for X reasons , and lost most of their record history.
If they are indeed close to dragons , their true nature must be predator like and quite violent....
Besides they really really fear magic...
So yeah , it's possible they used to live in a society way worse than Tevinter.

[Ash Wind]

Interesting and well thought out take.

As far as the Bone v. Keratin goes, in Awakening, in the Black Marsh, you have to collect items that are described as Dragon Bones. I don’t recall if a horn was one of these bones you had to collect, but the skull you had to put back together certainly had protrusions that appeared to be seamless extensions of the bone making up the skull.

With respect to the Qunari being a dragon worshipping people, the issue I have with this is two-fold. First, mutations from the norm in many species (especially human) causes fear, being ostracize and shunned if not exiled from the society. And yet the mutation that causes some Qunari to be born without horns seems to be revered.

Combine that with the second point: the familiar mantra of people being ‘Made in the Creators image’ thing. Humans for the most part see god pretty much as they see themselves (maybe older with a long white beard). If Dragons were worshipped as a god, why would Qunari born without one of the Main Features of their God be revered? Seems if everyone had horns like their God did, those without horns would be viewed as lesser beings.

Modifié par Ash Wind, 23 novembre 2013 - 04:23 .

[Vulpe]

Reznore57 wrote...

In Par Vollen ,there is supposed to be some very old pictures , of Qunari like people being worshipped by humans.Those were created before the Qunari landed in Thedas.

Could you please provide a link. It's not that I don't believe you, but I can't find it and I would love to read the codex regarding this matter.

Ash Wind wrote...

Interesting and well thought out take. 

As far as the Bone v. Keratin goes, in Awakening, in the Black Marsh, you have to collect items that are described as Dragon Bones. I don’t recall if a horn was one of these bones you had to collect, but the skull you had to put back together certainly had protrusions that appeared to be seamless extensions of the bone making up the skull. 

With respect to the Qunari being a dragon worshipping people, the issue I have with this is two-fold. First, mutations from the norm in many species (especially human) causes fear, being ostracize and shunned if not exiled from the society. And yet the mutation that causes some Qunari to be born without horns seems to be revered. 

Combine that with the second point: the familiar mantra of people being ‘Made in the Creators image’ thing. Humans for the most part see god pretty much as they see themselves (maybe older with a long white beard). If Dragons were worshipped as a god, why would Qunari born without one of the Main Features of their God be revered? Seems if everyone had horns like their God did, those without horns would be viewed as lesser beings. 

I didn't say that Qunari worship dragons. On the contrary. I said that The Kossith ( I used this term to refer to the grey giants from Loteq ) are a dragon worshiping culture. They are the ones that revere their draconic heritage and cast away individuals that show less of it, like the hornless ones.

The Qun was a philosophy adopted by the opressed part of the kossith society - those who didn't have "dragon fire" or proeminent draconic features - and by that I'm not referring only to the hornless qunari, but at the horned ones too.

The qunari seem to offer special treatement to the ones that don't have horns because they are a step away from what they see (or seen, when this things might have been more well known ) as a "curse".

For the qunari the lack of horns is a blessing while for the kossith the presence of more draconic features is a blessing.

That's why I believe that kossith are more reptilian in appearance and possibly even more dangerous than normal mages...maybe even more dangerous than blood mages as we know them.

EDIT

That's why I also believe that BW doesn't really like the fact that the BSN uses "kossith" as a way of referring to the grey giants race. They might wish to let it open in case they want to do something with the grey giants from Loteq.

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 23 novembre 2013 - 04:41 .

[Reznore57]

JulianWellpit wrote...

Could you please provide a link. It's not that I don't believe you, but I can't find it and I would love to read the codex regarding this matter.

It's on page 84 World of Thedas book.The Pyramids of Par Vollen.
I found this link

[Vulpe]

Reznore57 wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...

Could you please provide a link. It's not that I don't believe you, but I can't find it and I would love to read the codex regarding this matter.

It's on page 84 World of Thedas book.The Pyramids of Par Vollen.
I found this link

Thank you  ! It was an interesting read. 

It made me think if the original followers of The Qun actually lost that war. The fact that the qunari don't seem to know what's with that ancient civilisation make me believe that they actually defeated and asimilated the kossith in ancient times, times known of only by a selected few and  that they arrived in Thedas only by chance.

Still, the fact that humans viewed the grey giants as superior beeings make me believe that at a point in ancient times the kossith actually ruled Lotheq.

I'm just a little sad at the thought that they might not exist in current day Thedas and that we're stucked only with the qunari . 

EDIT

Still, there's the small chance ( more like hope on my part ) that some kossith went exploring or were exiled from Lotheq ( prior to the kossith colonist that were attacked by drakspawn) and they've found the descendants of some humans that left that continent, arrived in Thedas and in time they went tribal.

They might have been considered gods do to their dragonfire, advance tehnology and advanced magic abilities. but they've died out because they were too few to mentain a healthy population.

The Qunari might not have been aware of this due to the fact that those events happened long time before their arrival. 

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 23 novembre 2013 - 09:56 .

[Afro_Explosion]

This is an interesting theory

[iOnlySignIn]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Wouldn't keratin horns decay over time, leaving fossils hornless? Because we have come across a dragon skull where the horns seemed to be part of the skull still.
Also, the old dragon model is being redesigned for DA:I. World of Thedas has a picture of how dragons look now.

The dragon skull that appeared before may not be fossil at all, seeing as Dragons are not really extinct yet.

As Thedas currently lack machinery for industrialized excavation and mining, whatever Dragon bones you find are likely to be on the surface and not really fossils. This is a major reason why paleontology did not become an organized science in our world, until the 19th century when machanized mining became commonplace.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Considering that dragonbone is literally used to make top tier armor, we do have some inkling to just how resistant dragonbones are.

That is my point. Dragon "horns" may not be true bones at all - instead they are more like fingernails and hair, similar to rhinoceros horns.

And even rhino horns have been well-preserved as fossils - densely packed keratin can be quite durable, to a degree comparable with bones.

http://www.angelfire...hinob_2high.jpg

Lastly I can't seem to find any new Dragon artwork in World of Thedas. The ones I found seems to be Wyverns, who are very tellingly hornless despite being "close relatives" of the Dragon.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 24 novembre 2013 - 06:02 .

[TheEgoRaptor]

Anyone touched on the fact that every Kossith we've seen, at least to my knowledge, who have removed their horns, the horns themselves are hollow. To my understanding Keratin horns would not be hollow, would they? To me, after reading this very well though out theory, this confers a link between the Kossith and Dragons. I doubt they would just lop them off and walk away, there would be some for of ritual for removing the horns. The marrow would have to be taken out very carefully to avoid infection.

Again I'm not sure this is how true dragon horns would work, I could just be spouting out garbage and be sounding like a complete idiot right now

[Vulpe]

Alaric123 wrote...

Anyone touched on the fact that every Kossith we've seen, at least to my knowledge, who have removed their horns, the horns themselves are hollow. To my understanding Keratin horns would not be hollow, would they? To me, after reading this very well though out theory, this confers a link between the Kossith and Dragons. I doubt they would just lop them off and walk away, there would be some for of ritual for removing the horns. The marrow would have to be taken out very carefully to avoid infection.

Again I'm not sure this is how true dragon horns would work, I could just be spouting out garbage and be sounding like a complete idiot right now

I think that the proper term in your first sentence is "grey giants". I don't want to be rude, but I advise you and everyone that posts here to use the system of names I've chose for this thread so that we might avoid confusion.

In this thread the term "kossith" refers to the culture and  the grey giants from the other unknown continend that was the original land of the qunari ( I've chosen to use the term L.O.The.Q for it to make the conversation easier ). Despite many of you use the therm "kossith" to refer to the race ( even I use it sometimes ), in this context it has a different meaning and it might cause confusion for the ones that respect the chosen nomenclature and possibly derail the thread do to it.

So please asimilate it for this thread and be more careful when formulating your comments so that we can understand exactly what you want to say. If you forget the terminology, you can alway find it at the end of my original post.

Thank you ! 

Back on your comment:

I think that the qunari no longer know the real reason why their hornless bretheren are so important. The story of their origin is most likely unknown to the largest past of the followers of The Qun because a Qunari must know and master only what helps them in doing their job - no more, no less.

That's why , lets say, a Qunari soldier, a merchant or  farmer can't know about this. They don't need to.
For them, the hornless thing is something like a subconcious superstition -  something like we have in real life regarding gingers ( no ofense intended ) or black cats, but at a more subtle level.

The Tal-Vasoth cut their horns simply because the grey gianst that follow The Qun see the hornless ones as more stronger, dangerous, capable etc. , but even they can't really explain why. They might throw things like they have an easier life in interacting with the other races, but still I don't find this as a complete justification.

The real reason of their importance might be known in the higher circles of the Ariqun. They are responsible with the breading and they are the scholars of their society, so it's their job to know things regarding them and thier history.

That brings forth the possibility that any member of the Ariqun that knows this and proves incompetent might face one of two punishments : death or a treatement with qamek to silence them. I might add that this brings forth more flavor for me regarding The Qunari - the posibility that they are secretly not so "free" adds a lot of grey to them and I really like it .

I don't think that grey giant horns have marrow. The wiki states this " Most Qunari of both gender have horns though some do not. The horn itself has no nerve endings and can be painlessly removed much like human nails or hair. But once a horn is cut off, it will not grow back "

That means that their horn are indeed made from keratin and if they are connected to the dragons it might mean that the dragon horns and spikes are also made from it. ( + 1 for iOnlySignIn. You figured it out without the wiki. Good job  )

EDIT 

Alaric 123, I never read something that said their horns are hallow. Could you provide a link, please ?

If you are right , then their horns ( and the dragon ones ) must be similar with the antlers of the pronghorn and that they don't regenerate.

That would mean that grey giant and dragon horns are made out of bone on the outside and contain keratine inside.

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 24 novembre 2013 - 12:03 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I don't really think that idea for the origin of the Qun makes sense. The sections of the Qun that describe it's origin don't make any mention of fighting oppression or worship or dragons, only that Ashkaari Koslun searched far and wide for a society without the poor, disenfranchised and hopeless and could not find one. If anything it outright states there were many nations and empires where the Qunari lived. Perhaps the Kossith weren't a unified people. Or perhaps there were also many humans over there as well. We don't know exactly far widespread they are in the world, only when they arrived in Thedas and become the most widespread race there.

Also the devs have stated that the reason that hornless Qunari are considered intimidating is because they have become associated wit the Ben-Hassrath.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 24 novembre 2013 - 08:13 .

[Vulpe]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I don't really think that idea for the origin of the Qun makes sense. The sections of the Qun that describe it's origin don't make any mention of fighting oppression or worship or dragons, only that Ashkaari Koslun searched far and wide for a society without the poor, disenfranchised and hopeless and could not find one. If anything it outright states there were many nations and empires where the Qunari lived. Perhaps the Kossith weren't a unified people. Or perhaps there were also many humans over there as well. We don't know exactly far widespread they are in the world, only when they arrived in Thedas and become the most widespread race there.

Also the devs have stated that the reason that hornless Qunari are considered intimidating is because they have become associated wit the Ben-Hassrath.

Well, I might be wrong on the part that it appearead to fight oppresion. Still, this doesn't rule out the possibility that it was assimilated by the opressed part of the kossith population. Why would the nobles,merchants and the other kossith that had a pretty good life would give up al their belongings for a society where everyone gets only what they need to do their designated task and that restricts one in such a way. It simply doesn't fit.

If you think that the opressed and poor part of their population would asimilate the teachings of The Qun it sounds more plausible. They would want a better life, a life were everyone is equal and your capabilities are the ones that are taken in consideration, not your bloodline. Also, as in all civilizations, they would be more, so more trouble for the highborn.

As for the Ben-Hassrath part - that's what they want you to think  ( and yes, I have my tin foil hat on my head )

Now seriously - not all hornless qunari are members of the Ben-Hassrath ( ex: Sten ) and not all Qunari are grey giants(ex: Tallis) . Also, they prefer Qunari from other races for their missions outside of Qunari controled territories, so many members are hornless because they are not even grey giants.

Despite all that, it makes you think - why would most of the grey giant members of the Ben-Hassrath be hornless ? Wouldn't they be assigned only by judging if they have the skills needed to do it ? Wouldn't that mean that it doesn't matter if a qunari has horns or not and that their numbers should be more even ? 

Add to that the fact that hornless qunari giants are rare. It's not like a 50-50 ration between the ones that have horns and those who don't. Why would they gather so many hornless qunari to a point were they are more numerous than their horned brethren do to a task ?

And it's not any task. The Ben-Hassrath are one of the most important, if not the most important know branch of The Ariqun - the part of the Qun that is responsible with policing the population, educating it in the way of The Qun and most importanly...the part that is responsible for the future generation and decides who breeds with whom.

Think a little about it.

Also I want to thank you for bringing this up. If you didn't, I might not observed this part of The Ariqun. Thank you again. 

EDIT

I've made a mistake in this statement. The Tamassrans ( another branch of The Ariqun ) are the ones that are responsible with the selective breeding.
 

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 25 novembre 2013 - 09:28 .

[TheEgoRaptor]

JulianWellpit wrote...

Alaric 123, I never read something that said their horns are hallow. Could you provide a link, please ?

If you are right , then their horns ( and the dragon ones ) must be similar with the antlers of the pronghorn and that they don't regenerate.

That would mean that grey giant and dragon horns are made out of bone on the outside and contain keratine inside.

Again, I'm not sure of this but this is what I was talking about:


I don't see why they would bother to hollow the horns that they cut, again this is just my assumptions and this is all possibly steming from my intense want for this theory to be proven true at some point 

Modifié par Alaric123, 24 novembre 2013 - 10:30 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Well, if the Qunari do have true horns, then the cutting of the horns would expose the marrow of the bone. If not treated it could lead to a rather painful infection and death (though such injuries can also heal on their own). So what we see on the picture, might just be the result of the cutting of the Saarebas horns, and the following treatment of the wound.