86 réponses à ce sujet

[Vaeliorin]

Yai-Kai wrote...
Question to you all; what should be changed in ME/ME2 to turn it into a 'true' RPG.

The dialogue system, and (at least from ME2) the combat.

And, more importantly imho, would it still BE ME/ME2, or would it be an entirely different game?

That depends on what you think makes ME ME.  The story/characters/etc. wouldn't have to be changed, so I would say that yes, it would still be ME.

[brunomalta]

brocodaily wrote...

@ Brunmalta

You have a skewed idea of RPGs

turned based? That is a Turned Based RPG, not the sole definition of RPG.

While turn based is awesome, it is not everything the genre is.

Everything i mentioned is in fact what i would consider to be an RPG. but the point that i was trying to make was that RPG spans many ideals, all of which can be incorporated and all of which are valued by some person or another for what they are. Does that make them any more or less of an RPG? I certainly dont think so.

to each their own however.

I was joking  relax 

[Shirle Illios]

Vaeliorin wrote...

The problem with this idea lies in the fact that in your typical FPS (and, as I understand it, ME2) whether
you hit or miss is entirely dependent on the skill of the player, not
the skill of the character. The character's physical abilities should
be wholly dependent on the character, and not at all dependent on the
player, and the player should attempt to play the mental/social
abilities of the character as well as they are able.

Ah, the old argument of “player skill” versus “character skill”.

To begin with I think it’s false to assume that character skills aren’t involved. For example, I don’t know how to hold or shoot a gun and if I do attempt then despite my aiming I’m certain that I’d miss. As such my lack of player skill is supplemented by the character’s skill of holding and using a weapon and shooting straight. Similarly I’m sure I can’t run as long or as hard as Shephard can, etc.

But I think that this seperation of player skill and character skill that people seem to hold up as a requirement of roleplaying games is actually not right. I don’t want to see a separation of the two where it’s clear what the character does and what the player does, I want to see a merging of the two. The best roleplayign comes when you’re not entirely sure anymore where the character ends and the player begins.

As such I have no issue with there not being some clear stat visible that determines whether you hit or not (and there still is one, or rather several plus a complex set of rules). As a player I decide what to point at and what to shoot and how fast to do this. Does that require some skill on my part? Definitely, but then so does having the tactical skill to decide what enemies to attack first and with what spells/weapons.

Vaeliorin wrote...

Anyway, Cops & Robbers
and the like can certainly be classified as role-playing, but I don't
think they qualify as role-playing games, because games have rules
(which Cops & Robbers does not.)

Well, actually I think that Cops & Robbers also has its set of ‘rules’, just rules that are far more dynamically and interactively determined by the players in question.

One might argue that the flexibility of and disagreement over such rules (as Cops & Robbers games are certainly prone to have; “I shot you” “no, you missed”) disqualifies it as being a “game”, but anyone who’s played a tabletop roleplaying game can tell you that such arguments over the specific interpretation of rules happen just as much there as well. Not to mention that DMs tend to often take the rules quite flexibly to make the game more enjoyable.

To me what we consider “roleplaying games” are the evolved, grown-up, version of that children’s Cops & Robbers game.

But perhaps you’re right in that the term “game” might be the issue here. I’ve long since felt that “computer game” is actually a misnomer that prevents the media from evolving; too often games tend to be held back too much because they’re desperate to still be a “game”.

So perhaps we should look at how Mass Effect can evolve into a Roleplaying Experience?

brocodaily wrote...

You have a merry amount of very viable points, many of which (or most of which) i totally agree with. But then we cannot call ANY game an RPG unless every outcome and task completed is completely wrought by the player. The only game i can think of that does that is D&D and its many equivalents.

Arguably, yes. One could say that (outside of multiplayer perhaps) no computer game is truly a roleplaying game. But that wouldn’t be entirely fair I think.

Instead it is perhaps better to say that computer RPGs just offer a much more limited universe, giving much more limited choices. Just because the universe is more limited doesn’t make the choices you make any less valid. Just because I can’t choose to shoot the NPC I’m talking to in the face doesn’t mean that the choices that I am offered are any less valid.

Because in the end when we roleplay we subject ourselves to a universe governed by laws different from our own to one degree or another. Be it that magic works, that all aliens speak English, or that I don’t have the choice of shooting random NPCs.


Love -x-x-x-

Shir'le

[Yai-Kai]

AsheraII wrote...

Yai-Kai wrote...

Ashara, you say the list of 'real' rpgs isn't really that long, but I think there is a simple answer for that: Money.
Deep RPG's dont appeal to the mainstream audience, while hybrids like BL and ME do. So dev's have more sales, they get more money, hype the followup, and more people know it.
Whereas the 'real' RPGs are smaller (NWN excluded) and since they wont sell as much, the follow-up (if there is one) won't be as hyped, because that money goes into developement instead.

I don't mean to say I'm an RPG know-it-all, but I notice that I do read alot more codex entries, journals and do research outside of the game then compared to 2-3 years ago.
I still have to reach the D&D level so to speak tho.

Still, what I said above I do think can be stated with sales numbers, and if you look around a bit, you will know it's true.

EDIT: lil question, how 'deep' would you guys concider Risen? (or the gothic series in general, only played Risen)

Since you touched the productioncosts issue, I'll add some other issues as well:
-Computer (software/hardware limitations): In a table top RPG, you can basically do "whatever you want" within the rules framework, you can react however you want, and have all kinds of consequences, since everything you do has consequences depending on what the gamemaster makes of them (a gamemaster being not just the "storyteller", but also the gateway between players and rules). I *could* for example try to develop a gun in a D&D fantasy setting. Whether I'll succeed or even live to tell the tales of my experiments, is at the gamemasters' discretion. I could tell an NPC to "shove it". Whether the NPC attacks me or runs to his mommy is at the gamemasters' discretion.
To implement all these possible actions and consequences into a game, would require an endless time of development, and if it was succesful, require more than enough installation discs to cover the world. So, this would not really be feasible.
-Developers would require an endless amount of fantasy as well to think up every kind of reaction to every kind of behaviour. Even gamemasters in table RPG's are sometimes dumbfounded by what some player comes up with. ("NOOOOO don't sneak/crawl overthere! I meant for the party to go there as a whole! Bloody Rogue! I'll make you miss your detect traps and teach you! Better a dead rogue than a wiseass in my group!" (Yes, I once had a GM who was like that >.<))

So basically, table RPG's and computer RPG's are very similar, but for practical reasons, computer RPG's are more "streamlined", and will have a more limited amount of actions/reactions. Gladly, computers do get better, and some developers do use this to expand the possibilities and immersion into the games they present. So with a game like DA:O, you can have a very good idea of what an RPG is. It's different from other gamestypes because of the decisions and shape of progress you can make. The first computer games that were called "RPG" actually had little variation regarding decisions, and were mostly about progress and the form/setting in which the game was presented. The RPG element didn't consist of more than "being able to use warrior or mage abilities in a fight ". But, things do look to get better and better. If you ignore the flashy graphics, then ME is maybe closer to a true RPG than even Wasteland was. And Wasteland could be called the "mother of all sci-fi computer RPG's".

*bows down in awe*
I'm not even going to continue discussing here, I simply don't have the background...

However, I do want to ask you this. Can't 'digital' RPGs (cant really call them computer RPGs any longer in this console/multi-platform era) be concidered a pre-written campaign? Like, in D&D, if your DM/GM has the story ready for the group to venture through?
Offcourse that won't take away the example you said, the dude running off or beating you to pulp, altho it can turn out in a barfight instead in a game.
What you reckon?

Also, on a more personal note (feel free to not answer), how old are you? Looking at your sig, you've been in a clan since '84, I wasn't even born back then 0.o

[AngryFrozenWater]

It's interesting to read what BioWare thinks of this subject. Read this:



BioWare’s Muzyka: Line Between RPGs, Shooters Blurring.

[Yai-Kai]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

It's interesting to read what BioWare thinks of this subject. Read this:

BioWare’s Muzyka: Line Between RPGs, Shooters Blurring.

I'm not too sure about that interview at all. Crossover games are a great addition to the gaming market, but they don't have to REPLACE the genre specific games!

[AsheraII]

Yai-Kai wrote...

*bows down in awe*
I'm not even going to continue discussing here, I simply don't have the background...

However, I do want to ask you this. Can't 'digital' RPGs (cant really call them computer RPGs any longer in this console/multi-platform era) be concidered a pre-written campaign? Like, in D&D, if your DM/GM has the story ready for the group to venture through?
Offcourse that won't take away the example you said, the dude running off or beating you to pulp, altho it can turn out in a barfight instead in a game.
What you reckon?

Also, on a more personal note (feel free to not answer), how old are you? Looking at your sig, you've been in a clan since '84, I wasn't even born back then 0.o

No need to bow, I'm only human:P
And yes, digital RPG's are basically a pre-written campaign. But with a variety of means to finish them. I'm pretty sure there have been gamemasters who basically took a computergame and made their table group play through it. I wouldn't even be amazed if some D&D freaks ported some ideas and encounters from Dragon Age into their table campaign. The difference really is only the amount of options you have available. Both the developer and the gamemaster have the same task of goading the players into doing the campaign, without them feeling like they're being goaded, and allowing each character to succeed through the means available to that character.

As for my age: I started playing computergames when I was 10 years old. And I know there are some people around here who started playing games even before I did, when computers were rare even in an office. I wouldn't dare guess their age, but wouldn't be amazed if it started with a 5, or even a 6

[Kalfear]

brunomalta wrote...

Nope...it is not. Since the first one it was an ACTION game with some Role Play parts. What set it appart were the choices and i believe that this will be even truer on ME 2. Inventory, side quest and all else failed on ME 1. You did not had control of your characters stats, only his "special" talents. All this, for me, made it an Action game and from the looks of things, this is more evident now than never. I have nothing against it but don´t fool yourself. This is not an RPG as Dragon Age is.

So much utter Bulcrap, why even address it anymore

Inventory was fin as was almost everything else.

ME1 had a couple few issues and Bioware has grossly over reacted to the twitch, any story to much story crowd.

[Yai-Kai]

AsheraII wrote...

As for my age: I started playing computergames when I was 10 years old. And I know there are some people around here who started playing games even before I did, when computers were rare even in an office. I wouldn't dare guess their age, but wouldn't be amazed if it started with a 5, or even a 6

That made me feel even more of a youngster ><'

[RogueAI]

JRPG fans laugh at Mass Effect 2 as an RPG.

[Nozybidaj]

So, just by looking at the definitions on this page, every game ever made is an rpg. Is that the conclusion we are trying to draw to here?

[AsheraII]

Yai-Kai wrote...
I'm not too sure about that interview at all. Crossover games are a great addition to the gaming market, but they don't have to REPLACE the genre specific games!

It's not exactly about replacing things. It's more like..
In early RPG games you gave your character the order to attack mob X and were told you hit it for a Y amount of damage. Later on, you got to tell your character exactly how to attack mob X. A bit later again, you got to actually see the fireball flying across the screen, and Mob X running to the side trying to dodge it. In some games, you're getting pretty close to having to move your avatar in a certain way to have your sword hit mob X like you want.
The things are evolving, and including more and more bits of immersion, to make it feel like things actually happen.

The same thing happened to racing games:
In the first racing games, there was your car, and there was this road, with a start and a finishline.
Then they added random mobs driving on your road.
Next, the mobs were racing you, and trying to reach the finishline before you did. Winning usually gave a nice image of a sexy chick sitting in front of a trophy.
Then we got to customize our cars with better engines, tires, rocketlaunchers, and even got to buy different kinds of cars.
After that we got rid of the single roads, and could drive through entire cities, taking corners as we like, delivering packages from point A to point B if we wanted.
Right now, we've reached the point where we also get to sweettalk the boothbabe and shag her too, put it blunt. Though that usually angers her boyfriend who happens to be the local maffia boss and happens to be an ace driver too.

So the games are expanding, and adding things that are one way or another connected to the main game, no matter how remotely. If it's interresting (dang, that chick at the Le Mans race trophy looks hot!) then it will get added sometime, somewhere (In this sequel, you can talk to her, and get some coffee time in exchange for being nice to her)

[Yai-Kai]

AsheraII wrote...
<snip>

But what if I liked the just point a to point b racing with guys trying to be faster, and just want it with better graphics?
(not the case, at all, but you see my point)
Is there still a place for those people, or are they totally ignored? And will there be in the future?
Or are we slowly turning into retro-gamers that are bound to our 'oldskool' games for gamer-eternity
(gamer eternity = till it becomes incompatible with our OS)

[izmirtheastarach]

RogueAI wrote...

JRPG fans laugh at Mass Effect 2 as an RPG.

And everyone else laughs at them.

[dirtypaulie]

Just got back & did a ton of reading. All of you have very valid points that I can appreciate & respect. Above all I just want to thank my fellow forumites for their level of maturity. & keep it going I'm very interested & like what i'm reading

[brocodaily]

brunomalta wrote...

brocodaily wrote...

@ Brunmalta

You have a skewed idea of RPGs

turned based? That is a Turned Based RPG, not the sole definition of RPG.

While turn based is awesome, it is not everything the genre is.

Everything i mentioned is in fact what i would consider to be an RPG. but the point that i was trying to make was that RPG spans many ideals, all of which can be incorporated and all of which are valued by some person or another for what they are. Does that make them any more or less of an RPG? I certainly dont think so.

to each their own however.

I was joking  relax 

Oh kid, i wasn't upset (call everyone kid, not a quip if you are young)

I love debating stuff like this.  I was just expressing my idea, not bashing you for yours.

[brocodaily]

Totally gotta agree with Paulie here,



Thank you everyone for the amount of maturity you are exuding here, I knew this would bristle some feathers and I was hoping for some healthy ideas and debating.



Let us keep it going.



Bash me to hell, or tell me your opinion!

[Dzikv]

Terror_K wrote...

I hope not. That'd be another kick in the crotch to a standard RPG mechanic for party-based RPG's: having to create a squad that compliments your main character.

I know some people with go "Waaaah! That's too restrictive!" and the like, but that's what good RPG's are about. I'm sick of this namby pamby "let's make it accessible to 5 year olds" mentality.

QFT

[RogueGeth]

 I don't know what to say if it ME2 is a RPG or not, but in my opinion it is like like shooter but at the same time this RPG. If I was older, and saw the earlier stuff I would have real opinion on this, but from someone whos just only a couple years into gaming I really have no idea. I guess I'm in the gaming generation whre the word genre doesn't really mean anything kinda like teaching methods, is there really a "right way" to teach or if you taught the kids how and why something works does it really matter?

[SkywardDescent]

Brocodaily, you my good sir, are a genius.

Not just a genius- but the best kind of genius: A smart genius.

[Schneidend]

Mass Effect 2 is an RPG? I would never have known without this thread to let me know. Thank you ever so much!



Seriously? Of course it's an RPG. Only the ignorant and blind have any inklings to the contrary.

[SkywardDescent]

Schneidend wrote...

Mass Effect 2 is an RPG? I would never have known without this thread to let me know. Thank you ever so much!

Seriously? Of course it's an RPG. Only the ignorant and blind have any inklings to the contrary.

Have you just not payed attnetion to the billion threads on the old forums (and some on the new ones) about how ME2 is butchering the RPG genre by making it more like a shooter?

Horrible logic, but the problem Brocodaily is adressing does exist.

[brocodaily]

@ SkywardDecent



Thank you very much! I do try ever so hard to be one.



But yes, it is a problem that no one seems to understand or even comprehend. it drives me bonkers. but i love good ole fashioned debatin'!

[Reianor]

There are thing and there are names. Things don't change based on how you name them. Instead you name things based on how you perceive them and how you define names you use. This is easy to understand, but seems to be even easier to forget.

So many men so many definitions...

Basically when a person says "It's not an RPG" he means it lacks some qualities that in his opinion are required to qualify for an RPG.

Definitions differ, as this thread and countless other similar threads across the net show. Unless one nurtures an illusion of possibility of standardisation of definitions I'd recommend switching to a more productive discussion.

It's pointless to discuss names when using different rules for naming...

What people are concerned about, when they complain, is that a game lacks certain qualities they want it to have. Phrase "not an RPG" is just a side effect of current society's conversation system.

[Schneidend]

SkywardDescent wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

Mass Effect 2 is an RPG? I would never have known without this thread to let me know. Thank you ever so much!

Seriously? Of course it's an RPG. Only the ignorant and blind have any inklings to the contrary.

Have you just not payed attnetion to the billion threads on the old forums (and some on the new ones) about how ME2 is butchering the RPG genre by making it more like a shooter?

Horrible logic, but the problem Brocodaily is adressing does exist.

Mass Effect 1 was already a shooter-RPG. Mass Effect 2 isn't butchering anything. They're attempting to improve on both aspects of the gameplay. And, from what I've seen, they're succeeding.