86 réponses à ce sujet

[Frotality]

its simple. stat builds, epic equipment variety, strategic character development...there not technically aspects of the RPG genre, but they are so common and intergral in enough RPGs for many to consider them as much an rpg aspect as immersive stroy and characters. ME2 seeks to break the mold and integrate rpg/action into a seamless experience; this is blasphemy to some. while i will certainly miss my massive choice of weapons and more complex character builds (and my teammate armor..) ME2 might be better off with less focus on such technical aspects. (but not better off without teammate armor:devil:)

.....as great a game as it might be, i will not forgive bioware for that. *shakesfist*

[MuddledMage]

To me a game passes the dividing likne between shooter and RPG the moment a player feels handicapped because they don't have excellent hand/eye coordination. RPGs have traditionally been know as thinking games where as shooters are based on how well you can handle a PC joystick and twitch your thumb to blast the bad dudes.

I've been playing Divinity II since it's release date and have decided to un-install it and look for another game that doesn't require me to spend a ridiculous amount of braindeadening hours using a mouse with my right hand and five digits spread out over a keyboard while I "jump" from one moving platform to another.

Make me think my way thru a fight using different tactics or spells or using the terrain. Don't limit me with childish "Gee this is soooo kewl I think it must be Super Mario" hopscotch requirements constantly. To me Div II is NOT an RPG and never will be. It's a shooter with a large base of adornments but it's all smell and no flavor.

I'll wait a while on ME2 before considering a purchase to see how much it has evolved from ME (which I found entertaining for the first few days but very shortlived in regard to actual RPG experience). But to be honest I don't think I'll be tempted to buy it based on what I hear it's going to be.

I have played the NWN series for several hundred hours and enjoyed learning how one set of paramters altered the gameplay. DOA, no matter what you do it's still based on a hand/eye and not the brain. There's a lot to be said for learning WHY a genre works before trying to re-design it out of a desire to make it fit a wider audience. Sooner or later you make a product that's pathetically useless to everyone with that type of strategy.

Modifié par MuddledMage, 21 janvier 2010 - 05:33 .

[Popstick]

Uh...you realise that shooters involving thinking too right? In some cases, more so than any 'traditional RPG' . For one thing, you dont have the luxury of pausing the game before making a move. Either you think quickly and make the right decision, or you're dead. There's no 'health potion' or magic spell or super armour of whatever cliched fantasy to protect you from being taken out by a single shot.

I'm guessing you've never played tactical shooters where you have to make accurate assessments and decisions based on the terrain, distance and speed of the target before. Try playing Delta Force, any games from the SWAT series, Rainbow Six, America's Army, Ghost Recon, Insurgency or Brothers in Arms, and then come back and say that all shooters are about blowing crap up without using your head.
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Modifié par Popstick, 21 janvier 2010 - 05:45 .

[Terror_K]

Shirle Illios wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

If you throw that away any story-driven game suddenly gets labeled as an RPG, which is false. Monkey Island is not an RPG. Gears of War is not an RPG. Halo is not an RPG. GTA IV is not an RPG. Fahrenheit (Indigo Prophesy for the Yanks) is not an RPG. Heavy Rain is not an RPG. Space Ace is not an RPG. The list goes on.

Those games aren’t roleplaying games because they still miss a vital ingredient, one that could be said to lie at the heart of roleplaying: choices and consequences.

In Monkey Island you don’t really have a choice, you can’t influence the story beyond following it forward. The character you play is pre-determined and all you really do is point it from point A to point B. The attraction in adventure games like that lies in discovering the story and discovering how the dots connect.

But a roleplaying game is about defining a character, a personality, and seeing the results of the choices your character makes. It’s about defining your place in the virtual universe (are you good or evil, are you pro-human or do you bend over backwards for the aliens, etc). That is the key ingredient that prevents most story-driven games from being roleplaying games.

Uh... some of those games do have choices and consequences. GTA IV has it to a degree in several places in the main story. Fahrenheit (aka Indigo Prophesy) focuses on this quite a lot. Heavy Rain probably will too, being the spiritual successor to Fahrenheit. Several graphic adventures do (Lure of the Temptress for example) particuarly where there are multiple ways to do things. So do several older text adventure games that resemble "Choose your own adventure" stories. These are not RPG's though, and have never been considered as such. It Came From The Desert is an action adventure game that, along with many other Cinemaware games, revolves around choices and consequences and being on a time limit. Same with Delphine's adventure classic Cruise for a Corpse which is a whodunnit mystery where success or failure (and the degree of such success) is determined by the choices you make. Again... none of these are RPG's or have been considered RPG's.

[LurchALC]

Actually Mass Effect 2 is a RTS

[Yai-Kai]

LurchALC wrote...

Actually Mass Effect 2 is a RTS

Trolling troll is trolling

MuddledMage wrote...

To me a game passes the dividing
likne between shooter and RPG the moment a player feels handicapped
because they don't have excellent hand/eye coordination. RPGs have
traditionally been know as thinking games where as shooters are based
on how well you can handle a PC joystick and twitch your thumb to blast
the bad dudes.

I've been playing Divinity II since it's
release date and have decided to un-install it and look for another
game that doesn't require me to spend a ridiculous amount of
braindeadening hours using a mouse with my right hand and five digits
spread out over a keyboard while I "jump" from one moving platform to
another.

Make me think my way thru a fight using different
tactics or spells or using the terrain. Don't limit me with childish
"Gee this is soooo kewl I think it must be Super Mario" hopscotch
requirements constantly. To me Div II is NOT an RPG and never will be.
It's a shooter with a large base of adornments but it's all smell and
no flavor.

I'll wait a while on ME2 before considering a
purchase to see how much it has evolved from ME (which I found
entertaining for the first few days but very shortlived in regard to
actual RPG experience). But to be honest I don't think I'll be tempted
to buy it based on what I hear it's going to be.

I have played
the NWN series for several hundred hours and enjoyed learning how one
set of paramters altered the gameplay. DOA, no matter what you do it's
still based on a hand/eye and not the brain. There's a lot to be said
for learning WHY a genre works before trying to re-design it out of a
desire to make it fit a wider audience. Sooner or later you make a
product that's pathetically useless to everyone with that type of
strategy.

The thing that makes Div II to be concidered an RPG is deep story (didnt play it further then an hour so can say how deep the chars and concequences are, but from what I read the story is rather deep) and deep character developement, with armor/weapon upgrades.
Jumping etc is what I personally concider the action in action/RPG.

The problem with the huge amount of sub genres lately is; where does <insert genre> stop and RPG begin, and is there really enough left of either to be added to the genre title.

Terror_K wrote...

I hope not. That'd be another kick in
the crotch to a standard RPG mechanic for party-based RPG's: having to
create a squad that compliments your main character.

I know some
people with go "Waaaah! That's too restrictive!" and the like, but
that's what good RPG's are about. I'm sick of this namby pamby "let's
make it accessible to 5 year olds" mentality.

Bit late to come back (again) on a page 1 reply, but I do want to say (again) , the INTERFACE might be simplified, but the way you fight your battles is still your choice.
Crack up the difficulty to hardcore/insanity and start a lvl 1 char, complicated enough imho
TBH, look at it this way, lacking skills makes you have to think if you want to sacrifice that cooldown on that mob, and don't have it for the badass in the next wave, or if you will take that badass down with just guns and no skills.


And last (damn im replying to alot here in 1 post, wonder if people do accually read all this)
Mass Effect 2 has more hand-eye coördination then ME1 has (indeed, has, not had, its still out there and it wont be gone after ME2!!) but for people who don't have the quick reflexes, just lower the difficulty, or work improve your skills? I mean, nobody FORCES you to play it on insanity, you can just aswell enjoy it on easy, that's the joy of single players, nobody calling you names like 'zomfg n00b soldier, use a real class and crank up the difficulty you baby, or are you scared?!!'
No, it's just you and the NPC's. and they won't care less if they shoot insanity or easy mobs.

just my 2centsx4replies=8cents:wizard:

[MuddledMage]

Popstick wrote...

Uh...you realise that shooters involving thinking too right? In some cases, more so than any 'traditional RPG' . For one thing, you dont have the luxury of pausing the game before making a move. Either you think quickly and make the right decision, or you're dead. There's no 'health potion' or magic spell or super armour of whatever cliched fantasy to protect you from being taken out by a single shot.

I'm guessing you've never played tactical shooters where you have to make accurate assessments and decisions based on the terrain, distance and speed of the target before. Try playing Delta Force, any games from the SWAT series, Rainbow Six, America's Army, Ghost Recon, Insurgency or Brothers in Arms, and then come back and say that all shooters are about blowing crap up without using your head.
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Actually I've played a number of shooter games like Far Cry, Crysis, etc. The main difference is I play them once and the "thrill is gone".  The closest game that's a shooter I've found enjoyable for more than one play was Hitman.

I have no problem with shooters or "action" games. I simply don't consider them to be RPGs. As to character development, if that's supposed to mean the trend to add romantic angles and sex to games then I don't consider that gaming at all. Sex is way too important and usually costs more than $49.95 per copy.

[Yai-Kai]

You know what, I've only just found out about the release trailer, and to be perfectly honest, I don't give a dam.n about other people's opinions anymore.

I know I love this universe from ME1, I know I will love it in ME2, and last time I checked, I still play single players for my own pleasure, not that of other people.

Thank you BioWare for reminding me of that with this trailer.

[MuddledMage]

Yai-Kai wrote...

You know what, I've only just found out about the release trailer, and to be perfectly honest, I don't give a dam.n about other people's opinions anymore.
I know I love this universe from ME1, I know I will love it in ME2, and last time I checked, I still play single players for my own pleasure, not that of other people.
Thank you BioWare for reminding me of that with this trailer.

if you've realized that then the game is worth far more than the purchase price.

[Yai-Kai]

MuddledMage wrote...

Yai-Kai wrote...

You know what, I've only just found out about the release trailer, and to be perfectly honest, I don't give a dam.n about other people's opinions anymore.
I know I love this universe from ME1, I know I will love it in ME2, and last time I checked, I still play single players for my own pleasure, not that of other people.
Thank you BioWare for reminding me of that with this trailer.

if you've realized that then the game is worth far more than the purchase price.

Thanks

[Deflagratio]

Mass Effect (1 and 2) is an RPG, because Character Development is centerfold on the gameplay hiarchy. Without character development, there isn't even a Mass Effect. It may be more of a shooter than Mass 1 is, but it's no less an RPG, perhaps even more.

But you already knew that.

[Yai-Kai]

My fellow forumites, I suppose a fair few of us have watched the broadcast on xfire, or the recording.

Did opinions change? Were certain ideas confirmed, or expectations not fulfilled (sp?).

Share your opinions please, I'm most curious ^^



As for me, I was WELL impressed with the speed of the combat compared to ME1, not too sure if that's a good or a bad thing, it will be different that's for sure, but that's not neccesarily a bad thing imho.

Also, I liked the new way of conversations (with the interrupt button).

And they also confirmed that even smaller things might have a bigger impact later in the game, I pinked away a tear of happyness after those joyful words.

All in all, my need for info has been fed, I've calmed down a bit, I know sort of what to expect, and I'm very happy I pre-ordered the collector's edition of this fine game. I'm sure it will be an instant hit just like Dragon Age was (and prolly ME1 was, didn't really care about single player in those days)



Your turn now!