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[Rasofe]

Unbeatable threats should stay in stories where they belong, and not pollute a largely optimistic setting and its endemic short-story adventures. Certainly became a failure in ME3 where the middle dialogue options were cut because the Reapers were too big to be neutral about, or at least that was their excuse.

[Hazegurl]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

jtav wrote...

Shadow Broker is pretty pointless if you don't romance Liara and her actually being the broker turned out largely irrelevant.I actually prefer Arrival, which is at least briskly paced.

Ditto. LotSB really seems to be a romance DLC for Liara. 

I also really wish there was an option to betray Liara to the Broker for his help.

That would have been the only reason to do the dlc.

[Wayning_Star]

Hazegurl wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

jtav wrote...

Shadow Broker is pretty pointless if you don't romance Liara and her actually being the broker turned out largely irrelevant.I actually prefer Arrival, which is at least briskly paced.

Ditto. LotSB really seems to be a romance DLC for Liara. 

I also really wish there was an option to betray Liara to the Broker for his help.

That would have been the only reason to do the dlc.

the broker was indoctrinated, so any 'deals' with him were/would be counter productive..heheh

[Hazegurl]

It didn't have to be written that way. The writers could have easily changed that if they wanted to.

[AlanC9]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

That's something I'd lay at the feet of ME1 and ME2 where the player is dealing with dangerous, but manageable foes. There's nothing you deal with in either game that an assault rifle in theory couldn't solve.

But ME1's build up of Sovereign's strength, ME2's failure to move the narrative forward, and ME3's refusal to acknowledge what few elements ME2 added all contributed to the vibe put forth by ME3's main plot.

Well, it's kind of hard to imagine any amount of moving the plot forward in ME2 that would make hundreds of 2 kilometer space battleships solvable with an assault rifle. Although I suppose the old Secret Reaper Off Switch would have been workable.

[Rasofe]

AlanC9 wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

That's something I'd lay at the feet of ME1 and ME2 where the player is dealing with dangerous, but manageable foes. There's nothing you deal with in either game that an assault rifle in theory couldn't solve.

But ME1's build up of Sovereign's strength, ME2's failure to move the narrative forward, and ME3's refusal to acknowledge what few elements ME2 added all contributed to the vibe put forth by ME3's main plot.

Well, it's kind of hard to imagine any amount of moving the plot forward in ME2 that would make hundreds of 2 kilometer space battleships solvable with an assault rifle. Although I suppose the old Secret Reaper Off Switch would have been workable.

If you're gonna have an enemy that can only be killed with an off switch, you might as well hit the switch in the start of the story instead of waiting until the end to do so - then show us how or why it backfired, while trying to justify it all.
Think about it - if the ending happened FIRST, Shepard and everyone else would have to survive to continue the story proper. Then that story could have a much better ending.

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

Well, it's kind of hard to imagine any amount of moving the plot forward in ME2 that would make hundreds of 2 kilometer space battleships solvable with an assault rifle. Although I suppose the old Secret Reaper Off Switch would have been workable.

Did they have to include order of magnitude more 100 meter long destroyers?

Or render preserving the relay network completely pointless (they're curb-stomping the galaxy even without hitting the Citadel)?

[In Exile]

AlanC9 wrote...
Well, it's kind of hard to imagine any amount of moving the plot forward in ME2 that would make hundreds of 2 kilometer space battleships solvable with an assault rifle. Although I suppose the old Secret Reaper Off Switch would have been workable.

I think there are actually two problems here: (i) the fact that reapears are unbeatable in convenational warfare period, which I think could be solved and (ii) the fact that Shepard can't beat them himself. 

Well, they could have had the Citadel races reserve engineer Sovereign since all their technology was based off reaper tech and lengthen the period of time that ME1-2 break covered and ME2 covered. Then do it again for ME3. AC2 handled potraying Ezio as an old man OK - Bioware could have done the same with Shepard. Especially since ME1 established that humans live *much* longer. So a 60 year old Shepard could have looked and been as able as a 40ish person. 

Then you basically "power down" the reapers by having them cross in from dark space (e.g. be underpowered and forced to canibalize themselves to actually get to the galaxy). Then you just go (i) all the other reaper invasions involved the galaxy cut off from itself because of the mass relays which ME1 prevented and (ii) the galaxy evolved enough that we created anti-reaper weaponry over decades because the Council (new or old) actually acknowledged their threat. 

At this point, you can have actual "crack teams" of marines board reapers to blow them up from the inside. Say that by studying Sovereign the Citadel races created the equivalent of anti-reaper nukes that can be boarded onto reapers. 

[Rasofe]

It's still gonna end up a war story. Less lobsided, but a war story.
It doesn't feel like MEU deserves a war, TBH.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

jtav wrote...

Shadow Broker is pretty pointless if you don't romance Liara and her actually being the broker turned out largely irrelevant.I actually prefer Arrival, which is at least briskly paced.

Ditto. LotSB really seems to be a romance DLC for Liara. 

I also really wish there was an option to betray Liara to the Broker for his help.

That would have been the only reason to do the dlc.

the broker was indoctrinated, so any 'deals' with him were/would be counter productive..heheh

The Shadow Broker was not indoctrinated. 

[Zazzerka]

The Yahgow Broker was indoctrinated?

Fukken what?

[Rasofe]

Deals are precluded as an option because:
A) Shepard has seen and located him, and must not be allowed to live.
The Broker was already certain that he would be victorious. Shepard had nothing to offer him except bullets.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Rasofe wrote...

Deals are precluded as an option because:
A) Shepard has seen and located him, and must not be allowed to live.
The Broker was already certain that he would be victorious. Shepard had nothing to offer him except bullets.

Why does seeing him have to be a problem? Shepard could just as easily have simply said, "Hey, I like the way you work, I want you on my side". 

That issue never arises, nor does it really have any kind of foreshadowing or build-up. There's nothing to say that meeting the Shadow Broker in person is a death sentence.

As for why the SB would be victorious, that would be hardly necessary if I could give Liara to him. I don't want to fight him. I want him on my side. He gives good intel, and his organizational capabilities are excellent. I would love to have his expertise over Liara's any day. There's no reason for Shepard to not make a deal with the original Broker.

[Barquiel]

Siding with the Yahg would make about as much sense as siding with Captain Enyala, Captain Wasea or Vido.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Barquiel wrote...

Siding with the Yahg would make about as much sense as siding with Captain Enyala, Captain Wasea or Vido.

Why?

[Rasofe]

Except for that time that Feron said that anyone who's seen him in person besides his loyal guard is dead. That's foreshadowing.
And now you're also saying that the Broker would make a deal with Shepard for handing over Liara - something the Broker doesn't need since she's right there for him to kill. The Broker thinks he's holding all the cards, so why would he accept Shepard's proposition for an alliance - especially given the Collector's offer for Shepards body.

[Steelcan]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Siding with the Yahg would make about as much sense as siding with Captain Enyala, Captain Wasea or Vido.

Why?

because itd be betraying the blueberry

[ImaginaryMatter]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Rasofe wrote...

Deals are precluded as an option because:
A) Shepard has seen and located him, and must not be allowed to live.
The Broker was already certain that he would be victorious. Shepard had nothing to offer him except bullets.

Why does seeing him have to be a problem? Shepard could just as easily have simply said, "Hey, I like the way you work, I want you on my side". 

That issue never arises, nor does it really have any kind of foreshadowing or build-up. There's nothing to say that meeting the Shadow Broker in person is a death sentence.

As for why the SB would be victorious, that would be hardly necessary if I could give Liara to him. I don't want to fight him. I want him on my side. He gives good intel, and his organizational capabilities are excellent. I would love to have his expertise over Liara's any day. There's no reason for Shepard to not make a deal with the original Broker.

But wasn't it already established that the Broker was already working for the Collectors and wanted to hand Shepard's body over to them? I'm pretty sure the Broker wanted Shepard dead or incapacitated so he could cement the deal with the Collectors for his own protection. There was no reason for Shepard to ally with someone who wants to kill him.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Rasofe wrote...

Except for that time that Feron said that anyone who's seen him in person besides his loyal guard is dead. That's foreshadowing.

Source?

And now you're also saying that the Broker would make a deal with Shepard for handing over Liara - something the Broker doesn't need since she's right there for him to kill. The Broker thinks he's holding all the cards, so why would he accept Shepard's proposition for an alliance - especially given the Collector's offer for Shepards body.

Because the Collector's are dead depending on how you play the game? And if Shepard is offering to help the Broker, why not? Unless the Broker really is that cynical, in which case, I think all he'd want is to hide.

All Shepard has to say is 'Hey Broker, I don't want to be your enemy. You can have my friend here. I want to work with you to find a way to stop the Reapers.' It's a mutually beneficial goal. I honestly don't believe the Broker wants Shepard dead, or even that the Broker has anything personal against him.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Steelcan wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Siding with the Yahg would make about as much sense as siding with Captain Enyala, Captain Wasea or Vido.

Why?

because itd be betraying the blueberry

That's the good part.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Rasofe wrote...

Deals are precluded as an option because:
A) Shepard has seen and located him, and must not be allowed to live.
The Broker was already certain that he would be victorious. Shepard had nothing to offer him except bullets.

A) A deal could have been made well before Shepard pinpointed him, especially if Vasir offers said deal.
Moot point in the event of (my) A.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 25 novembre 2013 - 06:25 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Rasofe wrote...

Deals are precluded as an option because:
A) Shepard has seen and located him, and must not be allowed to live.
The Broker was already certain that he would be victorious. Shepard had nothing to offer him except bullets.

Why does seeing him have to be a problem? Shepard could just as easily have simply said, "Hey, I like the way you work, I want you on my side". 

That issue never arises, nor does it really have any kind of foreshadowing or build-up. There's nothing to say that meeting the Shadow Broker in person is a death sentence.

As for why the SB would be victorious, that would be hardly necessary if I could give Liara to him. I don't want to fight him. I want him on my side. He gives good intel, and his organizational capabilities are excellent. I would love to have his expertise over Liara's any day. There's no reason for Shepard to not make a deal with the original Broker.

But wasn't it already established that the Broker was already working for the Collectors and wanted to hand Shepard's body over to them? I'm pretty sure the Broker wanted Shepard dead or incapacitated so he could cement the deal with the Collectors for his own protection. There was no reason for Shepard to ally with someone who wants to kill him.

Well, if you take on the SB post SM (which the dialogue heavily indicates is the case), there's no reason why the Broker would suddenly attack him again. The Broker doesn't want Shepard dead. The Broker doesn't care about Shepard. But if Shepard is offering an alliance and information, I don't see why the Broker wouldn't accept. 

[Rasofe]

Pardon, it was Liara who said everyone who'd seen him was dead, and afterwards. However, the fact that the Broker kept his identity a secret from absolutely everyone should be a transparent clue.
More importantly, why would the Broker accept the deal and not just try to kill Shepard and Liara outright as he did? As for your honest opinion about what the Broker wants doesn't factor into this because that isn't what happened and the Broker made it perfectly clear that he wanted Shepard dead.

P.S. After reading the further comment I have decided that this conversation is born of spite. So I'm abandoning it.
This thread was about the Citadel DLC and it's derailing because some of you want to press people's buttons.

Modifié par Rasofe, 25 novembre 2013 - 06:35 .

[Barquiel]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Siding with the Yahg would make about as much sense as siding with Captain Enyala, Captain Wasea or Vido.

Why?

Because the goodwill of the leader of the Blue Suns, the Eclipse sisters and Miranda's father could be more useful than the contribution of Miranda or Zaeed, but would they keep up their end of the bargain? I wouldn't bet on it. Apart from that, the Yahg wouldn't have found the blueprints of the crucible.

Modifié par Barquiel, 25 novembre 2013 - 06:36 .