407 réponses à ce sujet

[David7204]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Simple. I've made the story and conflict tighter. I've given ME 1 and ME 2 much more satisfying impacts.

I can't say I'm feeling the satisfaction, David.

People complain about ME 2 not making an impact. It's a fair complaint.

As it is, the Reapers are level 10. They start at level 10 and stay level 10 throughout the series.

In my version, the Reapers start at level 15 and are weakened to level 10 in ME 2. There's no difference at all in ME 3. The Reapers are still level 10 in both scenarios. They're still just as strong. The struggle is just as desperate. They're level 10 in both scenarios.

The difference is there's a significant sense of progress and accomplishment in my version. Did it accomplish anything on a meta-scale? No. Shepard only overcame an obstacle that I as a writer put there. Nothing is ever accomplished on a meta-scale.

Does that make sense?

Modifié par David7204, 26 novembre 2013 - 04:06 .

[Br3admax]

Linkenski wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Key plot advancements always depend on luck. It was luck that Shepard was the assigned to ship investigating Eden Prime. Luck that Shepard was the one to receive the vision.

Is this serious? No it wasn't luck. Shepard was picked specifically for this mission. Luck had nothing to do with it. Go play ME again.

I think you're missing the point slightly. All Shepard had to do was recover the beacon. It was luck that Sovereign came and interrupted and luck that Shepard was the one who got too close to the beacon and received the vision, but otherwise yes, he was specifically picked for this mission for the sake of getting that beacon. That's why we follow Shepard as the protagonist in the first place, because it's predetermined in the narrative that this is the guy who uncovers the Reaper myth/threat.
So i'd argue that any starting point for a story isn't contrived, but some of the later conveniences definitely are. That Tali is suddently on Freedom's Progress, that Kalros is the biggest Thresher Maw on the same place of Tuchanka as the Shroud and that Sovereign is beaten because he's channeling through Saren, who is shot by Shepard etc.

Sorry if I came into the middle of the argument, but this just struck me.

Luck has nothing to do with Soverign being there. Saren came for the exact same thing Shepard did. Is it luck when I grab for a piece of pizza that someone else grabs for? No. 

Modifié par Br3ad, 26 novembre 2013 - 04:05 .

[Br3admax]

David7204 wrote...

There is no established number of Reapers, Br3ad.

If you are adding more onto them, you're changing the number that was there before. We knowing the number is irrelevant, as is you stating a point I already made. All this aside, the Reapers aren't attacking with bute force, so adding more of them changes literally nothing. How is this story better? 

[AlanC9]

CronoDragoon wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Key plot advancements always depend on luck. It was luck that Shepard was the assigned to ship investigating Eden Prime. Luck that Shepard was the one to receive the vision.

So you keep giving me examples of Mass Effect contrivance as an example of contrivance not being a problem. Instead this just shows how convenient Mass Effect's narrative makes itself.

Aren't both those things true?

[CronoDragoon]

Linkenski wrote...
I think you're missing the point slightly. All Shepard had to do was recover the beacon. It was luck that Sovereign came and interrupted

I'm no ME1 expert but how is this luck? Sovereign and Saren are trying to find the Conduit using the beacons and one was just found on Eden Prime so they went there.

and luck that Shepard was the one who got too close to the beacon and received the vision

As per Massively, it isn't luck that Shepard got to the beacon. It's because he was a skilled operative who could slaughter his way through geth. It also isn't luck that Shepard got the vision: it would have been luck that Kaidan/Ashley did since they happened to wander closest to it, but Shepard being the leader watching out for his men threw them out of danger's path and put himself into it.

[Linkenski]

CronoDragoon wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Nothing whatsoever. Coincidence and luck are always part of the hero's success. They have to be.

Why?

Good question. You'd think David presides the ruleset of all storytelling or something. Sorry to David, but this is simply an "argument from authority". There's no truth to that at all unless he meant to say "Coincidence and luck are always part of the hero's success, in stories I've seen/read. They can be."
Otherwise these are just blanket absolutist statements, but I guess he likes talking as if he's the Catalyst.

Thank god authors of fiction don't sit with a rulebook on how to craft their story. Otherwise you'd never see people innovate in storytelling.

Modifié par Linkenski, 26 novembre 2013 - 04:18 .

[CronoDragoon]

AlanC9 wrote...

Aren't both those things true?

The first will depend on the person. I'd argue that several people do see the ME series' reliance on contrivance a problem regardless of how often it's a problem.

[David7204]

It's a failure to understand narrative causality.

[Linkenski]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Linkenski wrote...
I think you're missing the point slightly. All Shepard had to do was recover the beacon. It was luck that Sovereign came and interrupted

I'm no ME1 expert but how is this luck? Sovereign and Saren are trying to find the Conduit using the beacons and one was just found on Eden Prime so they went there.

and luck that Shepard was the one who got too close to the beacon and received the vision

As per Massively, it isn't luck that Shepard got to the beacon. It's because he was a skilled operative who could slaughter his way through geth. It also isn't luck that Shepard got the vision: it would have been luck that Kaidan/Ashley did since they happened to wander closest to it, but Shepard being the leader watching out for his men threw them out of danger's path and put himself into it.

1) Well, now that I think about it, it is actually not a convenience that Sovereign is there because he and Saren have deployed the geth to infiltrate and get the beacon. and I guess that's why Shepard is sent there as well

2) Ashley/Kaidan was just about to get sucked in because they decided to take a peek at the beacon, so it kinda was luck that Shepard got sucked in when he tried to pull them out. It could've been Kaidan who pulled out Ashley as well or vice versa.

[AlanC9]

Br3ad wrote...
Luck has nothing to do with Soverign being there. Saren came for the exact same thing Shepard did. Is it luck when I grab for a piece of pizza that someone else grabs for? No. 

Unless the pizza just got put down on the table, it's luck. It's unlikely for two people to eat their previous pizza slices at exactly the same rate, so having them reach for a slice at the same moment is a coincidence of some kind -- either they do eat at the exact same rate, or some other factor caused them to sync up.

In the ME1 example Saren sat down at the table first, but Shepard ate faster. Shepard ate just enough faster so he was only slightly behind Saren as they reached for the last slice, rather than ahead of Saren or far enough behind for Saren to actually take a bite.

[Linkenski]

In most cases when a hero bumps into his enemy in stories it's because he's lucky. Otherwise the hero or villain would always know each other beforehand to their first encounter which is often not the case.

[Br3admax]

AlanC9 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...
Luck has nothing to do with Soverign being there. Saren came for the exact same thing Shepard did. Is it luck when I grab for a piece of pizza that someone else grabs for? No. 

Unless the pizza just got put down on the table, it's luck. It's unlikely for two people to eat their previous pizza slices at exactly the same rate, so having them reach for a slice at the same moment is a coincidence of some kind -- either they do eat at the exact same rate, or some other factor caused them to sync up.

In the ME1 example Saren sat down at the table first, but Shepard ate faster. Shepard ate just enough faster so he was only slightly behind Saren as they reached for the last slice, rather than ahead of Saren or far enough behind for Saren to actually take a bite.

Not the example given. The example was luck that Soverign came to Eden Prime. Not luck that Shepard got to the beacon in time. Also, luck had nothing to do with that. Shepard is an experienced Alliance Marine. His training allowed him to get there, not luck. 

Modifié par Br3ad, 26 novembre 2013 - 04:24 .

[AlanC9]

CronoDragoon wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Aren't both those things true?

The first will depend on the person. I'd argue that several people do see the ME series' reliance on contrivance a problem regardless of how often it's a problem.

But not a very severe problem, surely. Anyone who's really opposed to contrivance wouldn't still be with ME, or Bioware, after all this time. 

[AlanC9]

Br3ad wrote...

No the example give. The example was luck that Soverign came to Eden Prime. Not luck that Shepard got to the beacon in time. Also, luck had nothing to do with that. Shepard is an experienced Alliance Marine. His training allowed him to get there, not luck. 

Whoops! Lost track of the argument. Agreed; this is an example of the pizza being put down in front of both diners simultaneously, though I guess it's one slice rather than a whole pie. Or maybe not, since both Shepard and Saren get a slice. Saren had a slight advantage since he saw the waitress bringing the pizza; she must have been coming from behind Shepard.

(Is it lunchtime yet?)

Modifié par AlanC9, 26 novembre 2013 - 04:29 .

[David7204]

It's not a contrivance.

[Linkenski]

David7204 wrote...

It's a failure to understand narrative causality.

I certainly do understand what narrative causality is, but I think it's dangerous to say stuff like "X should always be a certain way" when you're trying to state an absolute truth about narrative. 
Who knows when/if someone manages to write a story in which the protagonist is portrayed as a hero without luck at all. I don't think it's impossible, it's maybe just not the most obvious way to craft a hero.

David7204 wrote...

It's not a contrivance. [about Shepard getting to the beacon and meetings sovereign etc.]

I agree, and I wasn't trying to deny that at all.

Modifié par Linkenski, 26 novembre 2013 - 04:28 .

[Linkenski]

Looks at topic title... *sigh*
Maybe it's time someone closes this thread?

[CronoDragoon]

AlanC9 wrote...
But not a very severe problem, surely. Anyone who's really opposed to contrivance wouldn't still be with ME, or Bioware, after all this time. 

Indeed, which was what started all this in the first place. However, me rolling my eyes and continuing to play doesn't mean better alternatives aren't available to the way things played out. David seems to think better alternatives to napping dude are not available because "luck always exists" which does not follow.

[CronoDragoon]

Honestly I like most of Priority Earth before the endings. There's little I'd take out; it just needed more reactivity to your choices visually represented. (ideally represented in gameplay, perhaps during the beam run somehow, but CSes are okay too)

[BaladasDemnevanni]

AlanC9 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Aren't both those things true?

The first will depend on the person. I'd argue that several people do see the ME series' reliance on contrivance a problem regardless of how often it's a problem.

But not a very severe problem, surely. Anyone who's really opposed to contrivance wouldn't still be with ME, or Bioware, after all this time. 

Bastila losing her lightsaber, anyone?

[Pee Jae]

Contrivance and luck. Damn.

"Hey, guys! We can't go through the Omega 4 relay because we don't have a Reaper IFF!"
"Guess what? I know where one is!"

Yeah, we can do this all day... week, month, year.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David still hasn't explained how his conventional victory plan is going to work.