407 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

Obadiah wrote...

I always thought it was good. The original ending was one of those the-story-never-ends type of finales which I understood.

Reaper War ended, Shep died, done.

@Barquiel Hell, I liked the ending of NWN2 as well. That's when the delicate sad intro tune for the game suddenly made sense.

Technically, Shepard can still live in the original ending if you boosted your score with the multiplayer; it's just left way higher up in the air than in the EC. Still, I hated that it was just so abrupt. Everyone's stranded, the MEU is left what seems to be in permanent ruin no matter what, the end. Blerrrrgh.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 25 novembre 2013 - 05:04 .

[AlanC9]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

But my point is that, on a narrative level, since the writers chose to go the Catalyst lives in the Citadel route, it does not come off as believable that he/it would not have the capability to fully turn on/off this relay, given that he has control of the Reapers. I'm suggesting that we can't simply handwave this as "maybe the Catalyst couldn't activate the Citadel". 

 Why not handwave it as "maybe the Catalyst's control of the Citadel was sabotaged," though? What's unbelievable about that that isn't equally unbelievable about the pre-Catalyst storyline?

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...]

 Why not handwave it as "maybe the Catalyst's control of the Citadel was sabotaged," though? What's unbelievable about that that isn't equally unbelievable about the pre-Catalyst storyline?

Well there's the point of having SOvereign in the galaxy at all, for one thing

[AlanC9]

To see what's happening anyplace else other than the Citadel?

Just to be clear, I'm only saying that ME3 doesn't make ME any worse than it already was. I am not saying that ME ever made much sense.

Modifié par AlanC9, 25 novembre 2013 - 05:58 .

[Rasofe]

The original dropped bellow good when I had to pick destroy because control would biologically kill Shepard. That was my first playthrough.
The ground glass only struck in the final scene with the old geezer and the kid. It occured to me that the game didn't really know where it was going or why, that the geezer was talking about the amazing vastness of space despite the Relays' permanent destruction, and then all the other implications came together too.
Shepard wasn't going to retire to be a colonial governor, let alone the emperor of the galaxy. Even if he survived, there wasn't really any galaxy left, and I would never see where the paths that Shepard set for sentient life everywhere led because the game had ended.

Admittedly the EC fixed most of that. It didn't fix the thematic pitfall, but with Spiral Coils that more or less reduces to "Please stop pitching Synthesis as the good ending" and "Don't have obvious literary benefit differances between the endings, i.e. don't make EDI die in destroy just because THAT is something you wanted to keep consistent".

Modifié par Rasofe, 25 novembre 2013 - 07:23 .

[Eryri]

I suppose the first part of the ending that irritated me was the aftermath of the fight with Kai Leng, the supposedly terrifyingly dangerous cyborg ninja. After defeating said psychopath, Shepard's companions nonchalantly take 5 to wander off and look out the windows while the commander taps away at the keyboard. And nobody thinks to check that KL is actually dead? A paragon would have given him medical attention, and a renegade would have shot him in the head to make sure. Neither would have just left him like a sack of meat on the floor.
I suppose it was just a set up to the "This is for Thane you son of a..." stabbing scene, which admittedly was cool, but not cool enough to compensate for that enforced stupidity. Protagonists doing foolish things like turning their backs on an enemy is one of my personal bugbears, I hate it whenever I see it.
I did manage to get back into the spirit of things after that. The next major indication that all was not well, was Harbinger zapping Shep to within an inch of his life and then flouncing off as though he had better things to do.

Modifié par Eryri, 25 novembre 2013 - 11:15 .

[BaladasDemnevanni]

AlanC9 wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

But my point is that, on a narrative level, since the writers chose to go the Catalyst lives in the Citadel route, it does not come off as believable that he/it would not have the capability to fully turn on/off this relay, given that he has control of the Reapers. I'm suggesting that we can't simply handwave this as "maybe the Catalyst couldn't activate the Citadel". 

 Why not handwave it as "maybe the Catalyst's control of the Citadel was sabotaged," though? What's unbelievable about that that isn't equally unbelievable about the pre-Catalyst storyline?

Because we're explicitly told that by Vigil that the Protheans sabotaged the Keepers, not the Citadel? The introduction of the Catalyst introduces the question of why use the Keepers in the first place. Hence why it makes the story far more unbelievable than ME1 alone. The player should not be engaging in mental gymnastics to justify the narrative.

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

To see what's happening anyplace else other than the Citadel?

Just to be clear, I'm only saying that ME3 doesn't make ME any worse than it already was. I am not saying that ME ever made much sense.

And the Catalyst can't open the dark space relays itself?  Or shut down the relay network?  Can't observe the organics running around the Citadel, the center of galactic civilization? 

ME3 took the sense ME did have and threw it out the window

"We are each a antion-independant, free of all weakness"

"I control the Reapers.  They are my solution"

[Linkenski]

They merely subverted it (if that's the right word :S)

"We are each a nation" = Each Reaper is made from a "nation" aka. a nation of organic beings.
"Free of all weakness" can be interpreted in different ways. Either they're just being intimidating or in ME3's context it can be because Reapers represent Synthesis which they see as a way to be free from all weakness through merging the two "factors of chaos" Organics and Synthetics.

There's not a shadow of doubt that the Reapers were indeed meant to be independant and not part of one big hivemind originally, but I'm just saying I don't think Bioware were completely ignorant of what Sovereign said when they changed them, and it also went hand-in-hand with what they chose to reveal about them in ME2 with the whole humans-being-processes plot-point.

Modifié par Linkenski, 25 novembre 2013 - 04:21 .

[General TSAR]

When Shep said he was not part of Cerberus anymore.

[MegaIllusiveMan]

Loved the Endings

[Iakus]

Linkenski wrote...

They merely subverted it (if that's the right word :S)

"We are each a nation" = Each Reaper is made from a "nation" aka. a nation of organic beings.
"Free of all weakness" can be interpreted in different ways. Either they're just being intimidating or in ME3's context it can be because Reapers represent Synthesis which they see as a way to be free from all weakness through merging the two "factors of chaos" Organics and Synthetics.

There's not a shadow of doubt that the Reapers were indeed meant to be independant and not part of one big hivemind originally, but I'm just saying I don't think Bioware were completely ignorant of what Sovereign said when they changed them, and it also went hand-in-hand with what they chose to reveal about them in ME2 with the whole humans-being-processes plot-point.

Sadly, I believe that this just proves that Bioware didn't have a freaking clue where they were going, and possibly just used a dartboard to decide what to do

THUNK!

"What did it land on"?

"'Reapers controlled by alien intelligence on the Citade'l"

"Okay, I'll tell the others"

[Rasofe]

You may feel that way, but that isn't how writing works. Even bad writing.
On second thought, all ideas are random-generated to a large degree. More likely than not, a good idea had come up at some point - to put it in your terms, someone threw a dart and hit bullseye - but they weren't keeping score and exactly that one brilliant idea was forgotten.

[crimzontearz]

When there was no follow up to the breath scene and Elper decided that it was in good taste throw us an extra muddle finger about it at comicon

[Iakus]

Rasofe wrote...

You may feel that way, but that isn't how writing works. Even bad writing.
On second thought, all ideas are random-generated to a large degree. More likely than not, a good idea had come up at some point - to put it in your terms, someone threw a dart and hit bullseye - but they weren't keeping score and exactly that one brilliant idea was forgotten.

That's just it though, it didn't build on what was already known or revealed.  Instead it was "the best place to start"

[Wayning_Star]

crimzontearz wrote...

When there was no follow up to the breath scene and Elper decided that it was in good taste throw us an extra muddle finger about it at comicon

I kind of think that bioware kind of fibbed when they stated unequivocally there will be NO more "Shep" stuff next installment... That breath scene is a set up, as part of the denial stages..lol

[Iakus]

Wayning_Star wrote...

I kind of think that bioware kind of fibbed when they stated unequivocally there will be NO more "Shep" stuff next installment... That breath scene is a set up, as part of the denial stages..lol

The breath scene was designed to be a "ray of hope" because someone actually considered that killing Shepard off in all the endings might be a little too bleak (in other news:  water is wet and the sky is blue)

It's nothing but a tease.  There's nothing definitive behind it.  Shepard is dead, we just have permission to headcanon otherwise

[Linkenski]

iakus wrote...

Linkenski wrote...

They merely subverted it (if that's the right word :S)

"We are each a nation" = Each Reaper is made from a "nation" aka. a nation of organic beings.
"Free of all weakness" can be interpreted in different ways. Either they're just being intimidating or in ME3's context it can be because Reapers represent Synthesis which they see as a way to be free from all weakness through merging the two "factors of chaos" Organics and Synthetics.

There's not a shadow of doubt that the Reapers were indeed meant to be independant and not part of one big hivemind originally, but I'm just saying I don't think Bioware were completely ignorant of what Sovereign said when they changed them, and it also went hand-in-hand with what they chose to reveal about them in ME2 with the whole humans-being-processes plot-point.

Sadly, I believe that this just proves that Bioware didn't have a freaking clue where they were going, and possibly just used a dartboard to decide what to do

THUNK!

"What did it land on"?

"'Reapers controlled by alien intelligence on the Citade'l"

"Okay, I'll tell the others"

The guy who was in charge of cinematic design on ME2 responded in a QA about choices with bluntly saying "At Bioware, we don't have everything pre-decided when we write. We make it up as we go", so there's not even a hint of doubt about that. A problem I think has gotten worse, partly because Drew left as well, being the guy with the original vision and all, is that as the amount of writers increase the amounts of visions does too, and if you look at the leaked script for example, compare it to the original ending, then the extended cut, it's just all the more apparent what an underdeveloped mess the ending truly is.

Originally with the leaked scripts there are hints that The Catalyst AI was a temporary controller made as the Crucible was connected to the Citadel, and as soon as Shepard chose one of the endings, or DIDN'T the Catalyst would "no longer be in control of the Reapers". it seems contrived that the Crucible has that power to remotely control the Reapers and all that, but I think someone, maybe Casey probably came in and said, Hey Mac, Your idea is flawed, but I have a better idea.

Then Casey changed it and it became the original ending, which was awful as well, and then they heard fan feedback and incorporated most of it into the EC, but they largely ignored the fact that The Rannoch part disproved the Catalyst's logic again for some reason... I guess they didn't get it in there because they knew they couldn't make the Catalyst counter-argue, and deep down they probably know the ending is just an illogical wreck.

But my point is still, that even though it was incredibly contrived I think the ending would've been better with Mac's original writing and it's hard to keep a story consistent when you have a team of 8 writers with each of their own visions. Bioware stumbled because of their deadline with EA and well... what a shame it is.

Modifié par Linkenski, 25 novembre 2013 - 05:11 .

[Wayning_Star]

actually, we must remember, technically, Shepard doesn't actually "DIE" in any ending, even the run away refusal scene only permits for being assimilated, which isn't actually being killed, per se.

all the choices leaves room for change, but no actual reports of death.. to meta game the manual actually insists on Sheps survival in destroy. No matter what we do, Shepard lives on..

the next installment could(did) easily contain any/all of the choices. The star gazer wouldn't lie to us.. would they?

[Rasofe]

Synthesis seems like the most definitive death scene. I guess by some ordinary private headcannoning Refusal could make Shepard the next Javik. Control preserves Shepard's consciousness but not intelligence or identity. Destroy clearly leaves him alive, unless you're an unnecessarily cynical person.

Think about it. If you HAVE permission to headcannon it, then by what string of logic is Shepard definately dead? Isn't that just something you've headcannoned because of the ambiguity?

No double standards please. It's too petty a topic.

Modifié par Rasofe, 25 novembre 2013 - 05:20 .

[Rasofe]

"Then Casey changed it and it became the original ending, which was awful as well, and then they heard fan feedback and incorporated most of it into the EC, but they largely ignored the fact that The Rannoch part disproved the Catalyst's logic again for some reason... I guess they didn't get it in there because they knew they couldn't make the Catalyst counter-argue, and deep down they probably know the ending is just an illogical wreck."

Well, content from Leviathan pretty much asserts that the Catalyst is fallible as all hell. Hence Spiral Coils. I agree that Shepard should definately have had even more input with the Catalyst's conversations, For example, if Rannoch resulted in Quarians' unanimous victory, Shepard could point out that organics have proven they are strong and dominant enough to beat their creations in combat. If it resulted in peace, they can point out the edicts of cooperation and unity without sacrificing diversity. Neither would change the Catalysts' misguided notions of a forced Synthesis being the best choice, but it would've been good to hear Shepard say whatever he or she has been saying all game - "We can beat them!" or "We can work together!"

[AlanC9]

Linkenski wrote...
Then Casey changed it and it became the original ending, which was awful as well, and then they heard fan feedback and incorporated most of it into the EC, but they largely ignored the fact that The Rannoch part disproved the Catalyst's logic again for some reason... 

My bet for that reason is that they didn't want Shepard's next-to-last action to be a futile argument. If Shepard brings up Rannoch, the obvious Catalyst reply is that the geth are simply irrelevant to his theory because they weren't advanced enough to surpass organics; Shepard knows this to be true since without Reaper technology the geth lose the war. Shepard has no evidence to present about the Catalyst's hypothetical sufficiently-advanced synthetics; even if he believes they won't ever exist, or won't exterminate organics if they do come to exist, he can't prove those propositions. So we're right where we started.

I do consider leaving such an argument out to be a mistake. The PC in an RPG should be allow to fail at stuff if it's in character to make the attempt. I strongly supported adding Refuse for exactly this reason.

Modifié par AlanC9, 25 novembre 2013 - 05:36 .

[Obadiah]

knucks360 wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

I always thought it was good. The original ending was one of those the-story-never-ends type of finales which I understood.

Reaper War ended, Shep died, done.

@Barquiel Hell, I liked the ending of NWN2 as well. That's when the delicate sad intro tune for the game suddenly made sense.

Technically, Shepard can still live in the original ending if you boosted your score with the multiplayer; it's just left way higher up in the air than in the EC. Still, I hated that it was just so abrupt. Everyone's stranded, the MEU is left what seems to be in permanent ruin no matter what, the end. Blerrrrgh.

I don't think that's entirely true about everyone being stranded. In the ending cutscene,the Citadel gets rebuilt,as do the mass relays I believe as you can see certain characters that fought on earth back on their home planets(Wrex,Samara).

My interpretation of the original ending was that the crew was stranded, and the stargazer scene took place on that same planet hundreds of years afterwards in a new civilization that was forming that had not yet achieved intra-galactic flight. ME3's ending was effectively the end of the current cycle and a new one would begin without the Reapers and the Mass Relays.

Sure, there wasn't much detail on it, but it looked like the crew survived the crash and made a home for themselves. I thought it was elegant and beautiful.