70 réponses à ce sujet

[Br3admax]

This is more of a time issue. During the time of other Blights, especially the first, this must have been common knowledge. But when the need for such knowledge wanes, so too will the knowledge itself. The Grey Wardens would really have no need to teach this to anyone, as it is incredibly unimportant during peace, from the darkspawn, time.

[Silfren]

badboy64 wrote...

The GW should be able to keep secrets to themselves as does other organizations does in Thedas. Do you think every organization should go and plain tell the public everything it does behind their backs? Everybody has dirty secrets that they don't want anybody to know. They are kept secret for a reason.

Perhaps not, but there are some secrets that there is no real purpose in hiding.  There was no good to be had in Duncan's not just spelling out for Loghain and Cailan that he was able to sense the presence of the archdemon because the Taint provided him with a kind of psychic link to the darkspawn hivemind.

[metatheurgist]

Silfren wrote...
Perhaps not, but there are some secrets that there is no real purpose in hiding.  There was no good to be had in Duncan's not just spelling out for Loghain and Cailan that he was able to sense the presence of the archdemon because the Taint provided him with a kind of psychic link to the darkspawn hivemind.

I wonder how the rest of the population would react if it became general knowledge that Wardens were essentially tainted humans? I'm sure they'd be kind and understanding, 'coz people never overreact and spread false rumors about things.

[Maria Caliban]

The secrets seemed like they were only put in the game for dramatic! moments! and then discarded. I expect that in DA:I, everyone and his body will know about the Joining, the Broodmothers, and archdemons only being slain by Wardens.

metatheurgist wrote...
I wonder how the rest of the population would react if it became general knowledge that Wardens were essentially tainted humans? I'm sure they'd be kind and understanding, 'coz people never overreact and spread false rumors about things.

Why would they be considered tainted though? They don't spread the blight, they haven't lost their mind, and they look like normal people.

They engage in a blood magic ritual that lets them feel the darkspawn and the archdemon, and makes them stronger than normal people, but they don't appear to be anything like ghouls.

Modern audiences can conceptualize Grey Warden's as tainted because we understand asymptomatic diseases where the infection happens and then decades later the person actually becomes sick. I don't think the people of Thedas would necessarily get that though.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 25 novembre 2013 - 06:55 .

[Silfren]

metatheurgist wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Perhaps not, but there are some secrets that there is no real purpose in hiding.  There was no good to be had in Duncan's not just spelling out for Loghain and Cailan that he was able to sense the presence of the archdemon because the Taint provided him with a kind of psychic link to the darkspawn hivemind.

I wonder how the rest of the population would react if it became general knowledge that Wardens were essentially tainted humans? I'm sure they'd be kind and understanding, 'coz people never overreact and spread false rumors about things.

I didn't say anything about revealing that particular secret and I think my post is clear that I'm not in favor of revealing ALL of them, but just that I think some are stupid to keep hidden, so I'm not sure what your point is in directing that at me. 

That said, I don't actually think that people would necessarily react that badly just to the revelation that Wardens carry the taint, no.  We see in Origins that people already spread rumors that the Grey Wardens worship the archdemon, and that's without the aforementioned knowledge.  People will spread rumors regardless of whatever facts are--or aren't--in attendance.

But in all, no, I don't think people would necessarily react toward the Wardens with any greater fear or suspicion than they already do.  Maybe not with kindness and understanding, but I don't think they would somehow turn on the Wardens any worse than is already the case.  Especially in the immediate aftermath of a Blight, and not anywhere that the Wardens had a strong presence and a known reputation for keeping darkspawn at bay, where people kept the old knowledge alive.

Modifié par Silfren, 25 novembre 2013 - 05:40 .

[Reznore57]

I don't think it would be wise to talk about the Joining etc...It's a form of Bloodmagic.
You drink the Blood of a corrupted high dragon , a bit like a reaver .

The Wardens and the Chantry used to be close , they probably still are in the Anderfels.
They have an understanding more or less , the wardens can have blood mages etc...they can break the Chantry rules.
But breaking the Chantry rules openly?I think it's a whole different matter.

[metatheurgist]

@ Silfren:
I replied to your post because it specifically mentions Duncan telling Loghain that he can sense darkspawn because he has the Taint. His campaign to discredit the Wardens would've been even more effective if it was known that Wardens drink tainted blood.

@Maria Caliban:
People have long known that diseases are transmissible, they may not know the mechanism, blaming vapors or evil spirits but it's something they know. Historically people from plague infected areas have been shunned, even if they don't show symptoms. "I'm not sick!" has never worked as a defence. The Calling doesn't help the Warden's denials.

In the 20th century, in first world countries, despite years of education and constant reassurance from scientists and doctors people still believed inaccurate information about AIDS. Even today there are still people that insist that AIDS is a divine curse, or that it's not caused by HIV, leading to intolerance. I can't imagine the at best uneducated, at worst wilfully mislead peasants of Thedas would do better.

Modifié par metatheurgist, 25 novembre 2013 - 11:04 .

[TheButterflyEffect]

fiveforchaos wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Certain Grey Warden secrets - like an archdemon can only die if killed by a Grey Warden - are outright insane to keep secret. Even if people don't believe it, at the very least making it public might prevent some people from thinking they could win a war against the archdemon conventionally.

Actually, the fact that an archdemon can only be killed by a Grey Warden is fairly well known throughout Thedas. What isn't known is why this is the case.

It's weird, then, that Loghain thought he could beat the Blight on his own. 

[In Exile]

thats1evildude wrote...

You have a higher estimation of people than I do. The Wardens have trouble finding recruits now, and all people know about them is that they're a great order of warriors who have ended the Blight four times. If the wider public got wind of the Wardens' secrets, membership would drop to a handful of Wardens in each nation.

They have trouble finding recruits because people think they're an irrelevant order of great warriors who sort of beat the blight by organizing big armies of other people to fight against them. 

Their current pitch is (i) we're awesome at killing so (ii) surrender everything about your old life and join our order never to leave on penalty of death! 

Someone like Daveth seems like he would have joined regardless, and someone like Jory - who wasnt ever cut out for it -w would never have tried in the first place. 

[TheButterflyEffect]

thats1evildude wrote...

According to World of Thedas, broodmothers birth litters of twenty to fifty darkspawn at once.

Hmm, so live birth then? Not eggs? Makes sense, but, erm, yikes. Maybe I shouldn't try to imagine where or how they come out. 

[Hellion Rex]

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

According to World of Thedas, broodmothers birth litters of twenty to fifty darkspawn at once.

Hmm, so live birth then? Not eggs? Makes sense, but, erm, yikes. Maybe I shouldn't try to imagine where or how they come out. 

I think the Mother birthed egg like things for the Children.

[Chaos Hammer]

Those in favor of transparency are thinking with their 21st century brains. It medieval times, mages are feared, blood magic is not only "evil magic", it's heretical magic in a time where religion is very important to people's lives. So the wardens using a form of blood magic, would not be well received.

This coupled with the idea of people taking in this evil, ala the taint, is a rather repulsive idea. Odds are, the people would turn on the wardens thinking them monsters. especially if some chantry official stired the pot.

My point being, this is not modern times (in which people are still ignorant and jump to conclusions), so this whole transparency is good notion.... not really.

Now, theres also the archdemon killing. People are not gonna be lining up to join when you tell them that, not only do you die if you kill it, your soul goes bye bye, so no make/creators/stone/(insert qunari belief here) for you. That's a massive sacrifice. While we see the "sacrifice the few to protect the many" as logical... its grizzly incredibly grizzly. It's something as a player we can do easily, its just a game and no matter how attacked you are to your character, they lack, one thing that in universe they should have..... Irreplaceability

[Vulpe]

eluvianix wrote...

I think the Mother birthed egg like things for the Children.

That might be just because she was Awakened. Prior to her , there are no records of The Children.
 That would mean that an Awakened Broodmother can alter her babies and create new types of darkspawn never seen before. Imagine if The Architect awakens a qunari brootmother and she goes on The Mother's steps.

Flying ogres ? 

[Silfren]

Reznore57 wrote...

I don't think it would be wise to talk about the Joining etc...It's a form of Bloodmagic.
You drink the Blood of a corrupted high dragon , a bit like a reaver .

The Wardens and the Chantry used to be close , they probably still are in the Anderfels.
They have an understanding more or less , the wardens can have blood mages etc...they can break the Chantry rules.
But breaking the Chantry rules openly?I think it's a whole different matter.

Slight nitpick - archdemons are NOT corrupted high dragons but something else entirely.  Also, it would actually seem that some knowledge of the Joining is already known to people.  Duncan tells you that he has had the Circle mages preparing for the Joining when you talk with him in Ostagar. 

[In Exile]

Chaos Hammer wrote...

Those in favor of transparency are thinking with their 21st century brains. It medieval times, mages are feared, blood magic is not only "evil magic", it's heretical magic in a time where religion is very important to people's lives. So the wardens using a form of blood magic, would not be well received.

That's just grouping too many ideas toghether. The idea that becoming a Grey Warden gives someone the magical power to kill the archdemon doesn't require revealing any of this, and it's certainly good to have various sovereigns and generals know tha they need to have the GWs around or they will be curbstompped by the blight. 

Otherwise you can get a disaster like Ferelden that's caused, in part, by Duncan being absolutely incompetent at his job. It's hard to fault Loghain for sacrificing the GWs when he had absolutely no reason to think they had any tactical value besides being really good at stabbing things with the pointy end of their swords. 

Now, theres also the archdemon killing. People are not gonna be lining up to join when you tell them that, not only do you die if you kill it, your soul goes bye bye, so no make/creators/stone/(insert qunari belief here) for you. That's a massive sacrifice. While we see the "sacrifice the few to protect the many" as logical... its grizzly incredibly grizzly. It's something as a player we can do easily, its just a game and no matter how attacked you are to your character, they lack, one thing that in universe they should have..... Irreplaceability

This is also not a thing you need to tell them, and frankly, there's no actual reason to think the GWs are even close to being right about this. 

[Wulfram]

The secret of the joining is basically impossible to keep. All it takes is one deserter who blabs and it's over. And it's not like a conscript is going to be all that inherently loyal. You might be able to keep it out of general knowledge with the connivance of the authorities and chantry, but they're certainly going to know - and people generally are going to know that there's an initiation ritual with a high casualty rate, because they'll notice the Warden-recruits that don't make it, and their speculation isn't necessarily going to be any better than the truth.

The fact that a Grey Warden must be the one to kill the Archdemon is information that absolutely has to be shared - otherwise some other guy is liable come in and killsteal. And people would notice that the grey warden who did this didn't survive. That you die killing the Archdemon isn't really a big deal, anyway - you're far more likely to die in many other ways than to be the guy who gets stuck with that job. Keeping the soul stuff quiet might be an idea, though.

[In Exile]

Wulfram wrote...
The fact that a Grey Warden must be the one to kill the Archdemon is information that absolutely has to be shared - otherwise some other guy is liable come in and killsteal. And people would notice that the grey warden who did this didn't survive. That you die killing the Archdemon isn't really a big deal, anyway - you're far more likely to die in many other ways than to be the guy who gets stuck with that job. Keeping the soul stuff quiet might be an idea, though.

I mean, when you think about it, despite DA:O's RPG way of dealing with it, actually killing the archdemon would have to be an amazing show of logistics, coordination and military discipline because you'd have to shot the dragon out of the sky, injure it to the point of death, and them make sure a GW is there to kill it. 

[Reznore57]

Silfren wrote...

Slight nitpick - archdemons are NOT corrupted high dragons but something else entirely. 

Depends on the source of the lore , really.In until we sleep (comics) Sten reveals than in the tome of Koslun , Olds gods are simply described as some sort of Dragon Kings.
I believe that , because the creature who looks the more like them , Corypheus ( tainted , with a soul , able to mindcontrol , and sing) was human , and you can tell just by seeing him.He was also a mage , and still able to use some of his old powers.
The Archdemon in DAO was simply a ...dragon.His main strategy was rampaging the land , no super power except mind controling darkspawn with the taint (but hey reading some codex about dragon cult,  there is a sort of symbiosis between dragons and humans who drank their blood , it's possible the taint just recreate and enhance the blood bond.)
They are also able to have a bit of war strategy , but since dragons are predators...

I may be wrong of course , but for now i really think the Old Gods are just the biggest dragons who ever lived.They are unique because they are the only male high dragons left.

[Chaos Hammer]

In Exile wrote...

Chaos Hammer wrote...

Those in favor of transparency are thinking with their 21st century brains. It medieval times, mages are feared, blood magic is not only "evil magic", it's heretical magic in a time where religion is very important to people's lives. So the wardens using a form of blood magic, would not be well received.

That's just grouping too many ideas toghether. The idea that becoming a Grey Warden gives someone the magical power to kill the archdemon doesn't require revealing any of this, and it's certainly good to have various sovereigns and generals know tha they need to have the GWs around or they will be curbstompped by the blight. 

Otherwise you can get a disaster like Ferelden that's caused, in part, by Duncan being absolutely incompetent at his job. It's hard to fault Loghain for sacrificing the GWs when he had absolutely no reason to think they had any tactical value besides being really good at stabbing things with the pointy end of their swords. 

Now, theres also the archdemon killing. People are not gonna be lining up to join when you tell them that, not only do you die if you kill it, your soul goes bye bye, so no make/creators/stone/(insert qunari belief here) for you. That's a massive sacrifice. While we see the "sacrifice the few to protect the many" as logical... its grizzly incredibly grizzly. It's something as a player we can do easily, its just a game and no matter how attacked you are to your character, they lack, one thing that in universe they should have..... Irreplaceability

This is also not a thing you need to tell them, and frankly, there's no actual reason to think the GWs are even close to being right about this. 

My problem with the whole "Loghain didn't know" is The Calling and The Stolen Throne, he had to know something was special. Not to mention, in universe, Loghain is the only person who we are shown that doesn't think the Grey are needed.

On a separate note, Think of the Anvil, anytime it is saved, the power corrupts.

[Vulpe]

Chaos Hammer wrote...


My problem with the whole "Loghain didn't know" is The Calling and The Stolen Throne, he had to know something was special. Not to mention, in universe, Loghain is the only person who we are shown that doesn't think the Grey are needed.

On a separate note, Think of the Anvil, anytime it is saved, the power corrupts.

He just didn't want to admit Flemet was right. She told Maric that a Blight is coming, but she also told him that Loghain would betray him many, many times, each time worse that the last. He was in denial and couldn't accept that it was a Blight because that would mean tha Flemeth was also right regarding him. He couldn't accept the ideea that he betrayed his best friend.

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 25 novembre 2013 - 07:37 .

[Dayze]

If I remember right; part of the reason Loghain didn't think the wardens were needed was because he didn't think this was a true blight. Just some darkspawn rampaging around

[Silfren]

Dayze wrote...

If I remember right; part of the reason Loghain didn't think the wardens were needed was because he didn't think this was a true blight. Just some darkspawn rampaging around

That's how it started, but by the time of the Landsmeet, Loghain is still not convinced that Grey Wardens are necessary, even though he had finally conceded that it was a Blight by that point.

[Angrywolves]

I think Loghain knew it was a true blight. He just lied about it.

[AlexanderCousland]

Lohgain couldn't have known, In The Calling He was suspicious of Genevieve and Duncan. If anything he would have become even more suspicious of the Warden' s considering what happend at Kinloch Hold with the Architect and First Enchanter Remille. Had Duncan briefed Lohgain on the benefits of the taint I would imagine he (Lohagin) would have marketed even more terrible propaganda to the public than He originally did after Ostagar.

[TheButterflyEffect]

About the dragon thing: I'll say it again.

High Dragons can ONLY be female. NO exceptions.

The "Old Gods" are NOT High Dragons, but they take on the physical form of a High Dragon, which can ONLY be female.

Therefore, I am inclined to believe that their gender is, in fact, ambiguous, like most deities. Yet, like most deities, are nonetheless referred to with male pronouns by default.