454 réponses à ce sujet

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Let's just skip the pointless conversation and get right to the satisfyin'.

Totally relevant to the thread and S/S romance.

[sandalisthemaker]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Let's just skip the pointless conversation and get right to the satisfyin'.

Totally relevant to the thread and S/S romance.

*Starts twerking to Elvis*

[Dhiro]

I'm going to guess that when people say they would like the ME3 model, they mean the ones that happen with your crew; that is to say, 2 gay/bi/straight options. We won't, I imagine, continue any of the previous romances in Inquisition, so that should take care of the unfairness that happened in ME3.

Personally, I'd like that (for reasons other than ~~realism, as I don't care about it at all).

[AresKeith]

I thought it was already stated that the romances in DA2 minus Isabela were Playersexual and not Bisexual

[ParkBom]

Silfren wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

JusticarFlareon wrote...

TeamLexana wrote...

That's how I feel about it as well. Plus, I think the bi romances in Origins were handled better because of that concept. Romancing Lelianna as a female actually felt special. While on the flip side, Anders in DA2 going 100% gay if your a male felt really off if you played Awakening, it just didn't make sense. He no longer felt like a real character that stood on his own. All the other crap that went wrong with Anders in DA2 aside of course, lol. 

With that being said, I understand why they did it and I enjoy the fact that BW opened up those romances to both sexes. But I prefer the characters to be more fleshed out and feel more real to me.

As said previously, LelianaxF!Warden had hella less content than LelianaxM!Warden. I was alright with how DA:O handled it. However, I preferred DA2's method.

Also, how does Anders being bisexual make no sense? How does that make him seem unreal? Defining a character as straight or gay doesn't flesh out characters as much as you emphasize. Lol, as said before, bisexuality is a thing. Trust me on that one.

He mentions wanting a "pretty girl" in Awakening, so obviously he's straight, all straight and nothing but straight.

"OH MAH GAAAAAAH, ANDERZEZEZEZ. U SAY U LIKE APPLES LAST GAME. Y U EET ORANGE NAO?"

If you play a male Hawke in Dragon Age 2 then Anders goes from showing attraction to women to showing absolutely no attraction to women at all and appearing to be attracted only to men. Meanwhile if your playing a female Hawke he shows no sign in being attracted to men, and his relationship with karl never happened. 

True story: I grew up identifying as straight.  Then I discovered an attraction to certain types of women, and eventually I identified as bi, with a preference for men.  Fast forward years and several experiences later, I have a more or less 50/50 split in attraction to men and women, but a solid and non-negotiable preference for women. 

People who can't appreciate the fluidity of sexual orientation--or who can't separate the difference between what a person will or won't be attracted to versus who they're willing to actually sleep with/form a relationship with may have a hard time finding that believable, but that speaks to those people, not the reality of sexual expression.

Also, it's better to say, if as a female Hawke, that you never LEARN of Anders' relationship with Karl, not that it didn't happen.

Amen to that, sista.

[Hellion Rex]

AresKeith wrote...

I thought it was already stated that the romances in DA2 minus Isabela were Playersexual and not Bisexual

Some people just don't get it.

[ScarMK]

eluvianix wrote...

Exactly. But the Mega Gardevoir is where its at.

eluvianix wrote...
Gurl, please. Gardevoir is much more fabulous.

[Hellion Rex]

ScarMK wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Exactly. But the Mega Gardevoir is where its at.

eluvianix wrote...
Gurl, please. Gardevoir is much more fabulous.

I see you, Scar;)

[Ianamus]

Plaintiff wrote...

EJ107 wrote...
They don't exist "outside of our societial construction of sexuality"- they have relatively clear and defined sexualities. That just so happen to rely entirely on what gender Hawke is.

Obviously they don't have any such thing, since you're struggling to define them right now. You're insistent on placing the characters in clearly marked boxes, but the fact is you can't, because they flout those restrictions with their ability to change. There is no label for them, they stand apart, like many people do in real life.

And besides, sexuality is no more a "societal construction" than personality.

'Personality' is also socially constructed. Society sorts people into groups and labels them based on what they perceive as the dominant traits of their being, but not everyone can be classified in that manner.

Both are dynamic, fluid, intrinsic to who we are, and very real.

You don't seem to understand what a social construct is. Saying that something is socially constructed is not the same as saying it doesn't exist. Genre, gender, personality and sexuality are all real. But they are all also socially constructed.

Sexuality is very much real, but the labels we use to understand it; 'straight', 'gay', 'bisexual', 'pansexual' and so on are all social constructs, society's attempt  to lump individuals together into categories, for convenience. And the reason we keep making more labels is because, time and time again, the previous labels have proven to be inadequate. And they always will be. There will never be enough labels.

In the same way that Hawke's existence should not immediately alter the companions personalities, so too should it not alter their sexualities.

Hawke's existence doesn't alter their sexualities, their sexuality is always nebulous. You're just assuming that. because they show interest in a Hawke of a particular gender, their potential interest in Hawkes of other genders (or in other people generally) suddenly disappears.

But Anders relationship with Karl is portrayed as completely un-romantic in nature if you play a female Hawke, while if you play a male Hawke is is very definately portrayed as romantic. It is clear that Bioware are trying to frame a femHawke Anders as heterosexual and a maleHawke Anders as homosexual, at the very least.

Sure its debateable if he is still attracted to both genders, but when both his outward expressions of attraction and his past relationships are altered depending on what gender Hawke is it's impossible for me to not draw the conclusion that his sexuality as a whole has been altered. 

And those labels are enough, espcially consdering they mostly only conver what somebody identifies as. 

Modifié par EJ107, 26 novembre 2013 - 01:51 .

[ParkBom]

eluvianix wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

I thought it was already stated that the romances in DA2 minus Isabela were Playersexual and not Bisexual

Some people just don't get it.

AMEN

Modifié par JusticarFlareon, 26 novembre 2013 - 01:49 .

[ScarMK]

eluvianix wrote...
I see you, Scar;)

What can I say?  I like dat dress. 

[Ryzaki]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Yeah I never thought Hawke's gender is supposed to change what happened with Anders and Karl before he met Hawke.

Yeah I always assumed he didn't tell her because he's an overly secretive bastard and he only told male Hawke because he was testing the waters *shrug*.

That and some females do get turned off the whole "Oh noes he's bi." thing and thuse they had him not say it not to scare those female players off. It's not that he's not bi but he doesn't openly admit it so not to ruin his chances. Least that's how I justified it to myself.

(And honestly with all the ****ing about Sky being a m/m romance in JE and how they couldn't romance him anymore with a female because someone somewhere was romancing him with a dude...I understand why the devs did it.) NVM that his Carth Syndrome was far more ****ing annoying.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 novembre 2013 - 01:53 .

[ParkBom]

EJ107 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

EJ107 wrote...
They don't exist "outside of our societial construction of sexuality"- they have relatively clear and defined sexualities. That just so happen to rely entirely on what gender Hawke is.

Obviously they don't have any such thing, since you're struggling to define them right now. You're insistent on placing the characters in clearly marked boxes, but the fact is you can't, because they flout those restrictions with their ability to change. There is no label for them, they stand apart, like many people do in real life.

And besides, sexuality is no more a "societal construction" than personality.

'Personality' is also socially constructed. Society sorts people into groups and labels them based on what they perceive as the dominant traits of their being, but not everyone can be classified in that manner.

Both are dynamic, fluid, intrinsic to who we are, and very real.

You don't seem to understand what a social construct is. Saying that something is socially constructed is not the same as saying it doesn't exist. Genre, gender, personality and sexuality are all real. But they are all also socially constructed.

Sexuality is very much real, but the labels we use to understand it; 'straight', 'gay', 'bisexual', 'pansexual' and so on are all social constructs, society's attempt  to lump individuals together into categories, for convenience. And the reason we keep making more labels is because, time and time again, the previous labels have proven to be inadequate. And they always will be. There will never be enough labels.

In the same way that Hawke's existence should not immediately alter the companions personalities, so too should it not alter their sexualities.

Hawke's existence doesn't alter their sexualities, their sexuality is always nebulous. You're just assuming that. because they show interest in a Hawke of a particular gender, their potential interest in Hawkes of other genders (or in other people generally) suddenly disappears.

But Anders relationship with Karl is portrayed as completely un-romantic in nature if you play a female Hawke, while if you play a male Hawke is is very definately portrayed as romantic. It is clear that Bioware are trying to frame a femHawke Anders as heterosexual and a maleHawke Anders as homosexual, at the very least.

Sure its debateable if he is still attracted to both genders, but when both his outward expressions of attraction and his past relationships are altered depending on what gender Hawke is it's impossible for me to not draw the conclusion that his sexuality as a whole has been altered. 

Can you prove that he was never in a relationship with Karl if you play a F!Hawke? Or is it just never revealed to her? And if you play a M!Hawke, as others have said before, banter with Isabela states that he IS bisexual.

Modifié par JusticarFlareon, 26 novembre 2013 - 01:51 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Let's just skip the pointless conversation and get right to the satisfyin'.

Totally relevant to the thread and S/S romance.

*Starts twerking to Elvis*

This solves so many problems here. And it has everything to do with the topic.

 

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 26 novembre 2013 - 06:19 .

[TeamLexana]

JusticarFlareon wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

JusticarFlareon wrote...

TeamLexana wrote...

JusticarFlareon wrote...

As said previously, LelianaxF!Warden had hella less content than LelianaxM!Warden. I was alright with how DA:O handled it. However, I preferred DA2's method.

Also, how does Anders being bisexual make no sense? How does that make him seem unreal? Defining a character as straight or gay doesn't flesh out characters as much as you emphasize. Lol, as said before, bisexuality is a thing. Trust me on that one. 

They weren't shown as bisexual though. That's the point.

That doesn't define them as straight, though. If I kiss a girl, people will think I'm straight. Are they wrong? Yes. Does it make me less of a believable person? I don't think so.

If Hawke is male then Anders was in a romantic relationship with a male charcter, Karl, and this is made very clear. If, however, Hawke is female then Anders and Karl were not in a relationship, and he is only shown as a friend of Anders. 

It's clear that if Hawke is female Anders is being portrayed as straight, or they would not have gone through the trouble of changing the nature of his and Karl's relationship.

But that's only if Hawke is a female. You can't just disregard what happens when Hawke is a male.

Again. That's THE. POINT. 

In regards to Anders, if he had the heart to heart about Karl to a female Hawke, then that would have made him a bi character, like Lelianna and Zevran from Anders. As is, he's player sexual - as is most of the LI's. 

[Ravensword]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Let's just skip the pointless conversation and get right to the satisfyin'.

Totally relevant to the thread and S/S romance.

*Starts twerking to Elvis*

[ParkBom]

TeamLexana wrote...

JusticarFlareon wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

JusticarFlareon wrote...

TeamLexana wrote...

JusticarFlareon wrote...

As said previously, LelianaxF!Warden had hella less content than LelianaxM!Warden. I was alright with how DA:O handled it. However, I preferred DA2's method.

Also, how does Anders being bisexual make no sense? How does that make him seem unreal? Defining a character as straight or gay doesn't flesh out characters as much as you emphasize. Lol, as said before, bisexuality is a thing. Trust me on that one. 

They weren't shown as bisexual though. That's the point.

That doesn't define them as straight, though. If I kiss a girl, people will think I'm straight. Are they wrong? Yes. Does it make me less of a believable person? I don't think so.

If Hawke is male then Anders was in a romantic relationship with a male charcter, Karl, and this is made very clear. If, however, Hawke is female then Anders and Karl were not in a relationship, and he is only shown as a friend of Anders. 

It's clear that if Hawke is female Anders is being portrayed as straight, or they would not have gone through the trouble of changing the nature of his and Karl's relationship.

But that's only if Hawke is a female. You can't just disregard what happens when Hawke is a male.

Again. That's THE. POINT. 

In regards to Anders, if he had the heart to heart about Karl to a female Hawke, then that would have made him a bi character, like Lelianna and Zevran from Anders. As is, he's player sexual - as is most of the LI's. 

How can you prove that he didn't have a relationship with Karl, though? Just because he doesn't tell F!Hawke doesn't mean he's not bisexual. 

[sandalisthemaker]

Ravensword wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Let's just skip the pointless conversation and get right to the satisfyin'.

Totally relevant to the thread and S/S romance.

*Starts twerking to Elvis*

I CAN TWERK TO ANYTHING.  AND I MEAN ANYTHING. ALPINE YODELING, DEATH METAL. IT'S ALL GOOD.

Modifié par sandalisthemaker, 26 novembre 2013 - 01:55 .

[Ianamus]

JusticarFlareon wrote...

Can you prove that he was never in a relationship with Karl if you play a F!Hawke? Or is it just never revealed to her? And if you play a M!Hawke, as others have said before, banter with Isabela states that he IS bisexual.

It's clear that writers intend for him to come across as heterosexual if you are playing female Hawke, at the very least, with no indictation otherwise and the conveyance of a key past relationship relevant to the quest at hand changed. 

And where is this "bisexual-proving" dialogue with Isabela? I've not actually seen it linked here, so I can't judge. 

Modifié par EJ107, 26 novembre 2013 - 01:58 .

[Ryzaki]

EJ107 wrote...

JusticarFlareon wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

Can you prove that he was never in a relationship with Karl if you play a F!Hawke? Or is it just never revealed to her? And if you play a M!Hawke, as others have said before, banter with Isabela states that he IS bisexual.
 

It's clear that writers intend for him to come across as heterosexual if you are playing female Hawke, at the very least, with no indictation otherwise and the conveyance of a key past relationship relevant to the quest at hand changed. 

And where is this "bisexual-proving" dialogue with Isabela? I've not actually seen it linked here, so I can't judge. 

It's for Male Hawke but they pretty blatantly admit to having slept together.

• Anders: I keep thinking I know you from somewhere...
• Isabela: You're Fereldan, right? Ever spend time at the Pearl?
• Anders: That's it!
• Anders: You used to really like that girl with the griffon tattoos, right? What was her name?
• Isabela: The Lay Warden?
• Anders: That's right! I think you were there the night I—
• Isabela: Oh! Were you the runaway mage who could do that electricity thing? That was nice...
• Hawke: Please stop talking. Now.

(Or if Varric is in the party)

• Varric: I don't think I need to know this about either of you.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 novembre 2013 - 01:58 .

[Silfren]

EJ107 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

EJ107 wrote...
They don't exist "outside of our societial construction of sexuality"- they have relatively clear and defined sexualities. That just so happen to rely entirely on what gender Hawke is.

Obviously they don't have any such thing, since you're struggling to define them right now. You're insistent on placing the characters in clearly marked boxes, but the fact is you can't, because they flout those restrictions with their ability to change. There is no label for them, they stand apart, like many people do in real life.

And besides, sexuality is no more a "societal construction" than personality.

'Personality' is also socially constructed. Society sorts people into groups and labels them based on what they perceive as the dominant traits of their being, but not everyone can be classified in that manner.

Both are dynamic, fluid, intrinsic to who we are, and very real.

You don't seem to understand what a social construct is. Saying that something is socially constructed is not the same as saying it doesn't exist. Genre, gender, personality and sexuality are all real. But they are all also socially constructed.

Sexuality is very much real, but the labels we use to understand it; 'straight', 'gay', 'bisexual', 'pansexual' and so on are all social constructs, society's attempt  to lump individuals together into categories, for convenience. And the reason we keep making more labels is because, time and time again, the previous labels have proven to be inadequate. And they always will be. There will never be enough labels.

In the same way that Hawke's existence should not immediately alter the companions personalities, so too should it not alter their sexualities.

Hawke's existence doesn't alter their sexualities, their sexuality is always nebulous. You're just assuming that. because they show interest in a Hawke of a particular gender, their potential interest in Hawkes of other genders (or in other people generally) suddenly disappears.

But Anders relationship with Karl is portrayed as completely un-romantic in nature if you play a female Hawke, while if you play a male Hawke is is very definately portrayed as romantic. It is clear that Bioware are trying to frame a femHawke Anders as heterosexual and a maleHawke Anders as homosexual, at the very least.

Sure its debateable if he is still attracted to both genders, but when both his outward expressions of attraction and his past relationships are altered depending on what gender Hawke is it's impossible for me to not draw the conclusion that his sexuality as a whole has been altered. 

And those labels are enough, espcially consdering they mostly only conver what somebody identifies as. 

If you play close attention to the dialogue with Anders as a male Hawke, there's a line where Anders comes right out and says that he never saw any good reason for disregarding people as potential romantic partners over their gender.  I don't remember the verbatim wording, but he definitely makes it clear that he does not look at gender at all when considering someone as a LI.  Which, if you want to get right down to it, means that Anders is no more bisexual than he is gay, because he pointedly says that gender is completely irrelevant to him.  He wouldn't say such a thing if he strictly preferred men, so no, it isn't clear that Bioware is trying to frame him in any particular way.

[ParkBom]

EJ107 wrote...

JusticarFlareon wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

Can you prove that he was never in a relationship with Karl if you play a F!Hawke? Or is it just never revealed to her? And if you play a M!Hawke, as others have said before, banter with Isabela states that he IS bisexual.
 

It's clear that writers intend for him to come across as heterosexual if you are playing female Hawke, at the very least, with no indictation otherwise and the conveyance of a key past relationship relevant to the quest at hand changed. 

And where is this "bisexual-proving" dialogue with Isabela? I've not actually seen it linked here, so I can't judge. 

Like I said before, just saying that he didn't mention his relationship with Karl doesn't rule out that he could be bi, intended or no.

Apparently, the two got to know each other pretty well, in the past.

[Silfren]

Ryzaki wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Yeah I never thought Hawke's gender is supposed to change what happened with Anders and Karl before he met Hawke.

Yeah I always assumed he didn't tell her because he's an overly secretive bastard and he only told male Hawke because he was testing the waters *shrug*.

That and some females do get turned off the whole "Oh noes he's bi." thing and thuse they had him not say it not to scare those female players off. It's not that he's not bi but he doesn't openly admit it so not to ruin his chances. Least that's how I justified it to myself.

(And honestly with all the ****ing about Sky being a m/m romance in JE and how they couldn't romance him anymore with a female because someone somewhere was romancing him with a dude...I understand why the devs did it.) NVM that his Carth Syndrome was far more ****ing annoying.

Didn't a writer say something about how they didn't include the dialogue about Karl with a female Hawke because for some reason they didn't think it was relevant? I got the vibe from that that it somehow didn't occur to them how it would come across for such a major detail about Anders' life to be mentioned in one playthrough but not another.

[ObserverStatus]

Ryzaki wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

JusticarFlareon wrote...

EJ107 wrote...
Can you prove that he was never in a relationship with Karl if you play a F!Hawke? Or is it just never revealed to her? And if you play a M!Hawke, as others have said before, banter with Isabela states that he IS bisexual.
 

It's clear that writers intend for him to come across as heterosexual if you are playing female Hawke, at the very least, with no indictation otherwise and the conveyance of a key past relationship relevant to the quest at hand changed. 
And where is this "bisexual-proving" dialogue with Isabela? I've not actually seen it linked here, so I can't judge. 

It's for Male Hawke but they pretty blatantly admit to having slept together.

• Anders: I keep thinking I know you from somewhere...
• Isabela: You're Fereldan, right? Ever spend time at the Pearl?
• Anders: That's it!
• Anders: You used to really like that girl with the griffon tattoos, right? What was her name?
• Isabela: The Lay Warden?
• Anders: That's right! I think you were there the night I—
• Isabela: Oh! Were you the runaway mage who could do that electricity thing? That was nice...
• Hawke: Please stop talking. Now.

That part at the end is exactly what Bioware needs to stop doing with their protagonists, I was 'flipping fascinated at this point, why did Hawke have to go and be such a buzzkill?

[Ryzaki]

Silfren wrote...
Didn't a writer say something about how they didn't include the dialogue about Karl with a female Hawke because for some reason they didn't think it was relevant? I got the vibe from that that it somehow didn't occur to them how it would come across for such a major detail about Anders' life to be mentioned in one playthrough but not another.

Ah I didn't see that.

In that case it is a odd bit to leave out though.