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[Silfren]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Statare wrote...

For instance, for a male Hawke you can already be in a s/s romance (I bet this is true for female Hawke too), and your mother in Act 2 will say "now all that's left is to find you a wife (probably husband for female)". It's left for the player to either disavow that in their head, headcanon it, or ignore it. It is ambiguous content that assumes normalcy for a straight Hawke and gives no recourse for a non-straight Hawke. It's a bit weird, that a non-straight Hawke never gets to tell their mamá querida that she should quit looking. It's a subtle issue, that to me is a bit trivializing and assuming of either a heterosexual or silenced queer subjectivity. Does that make sense?

This is a good example, I'd actually totally forgotten that this scene happened. 

The generous assumption is that the usual course of action for a noble family *would* be to marry their children off to suitable opposite-sex partners for pragmatic reasons (though the Human Noble family's reaction to a s/s romance in the DA:O was nonchalance), or that this was a mistaken plot flag firing and Mama Hawke should've had other content exclusive for Hawkes in a same-sex relationship at that point.

But on the face of it, it does seem a bit awkward - and games assuming the protagonist's heterosexuality is a particularly sore point for me.

I always thought that scene was doubly weird since integral to Hawke's entire story is that Leandra chose to elope with her forbidden lover rather than to submit to an arranged marriage.  You'd think she would be predisposed toward Hawke finding her own partner in the first place, but for that scene to fire even when Hawke is already established in a relationship is just bizarre. 

[billy the squid]

Silfren wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Silfren wrote...
That's the long and short of it.  Hell, any time people here complain that Bioware shouldn't include a given group of people in the game because it wouldn't be realistic to do so, they are making such statements about the way they perceive the world, even if that perception is extremely inaccurate against historical reality.  On a darker bent, I daresay some people making such statements are arguing for the way they want the world to be.

The moment you make that statement an absolute, is the moment it becomes innacurate. Perhaps some act exactly in the way you're describing for the reason you perceive but you should not place everyone within the same bag. A great many number of people could simply be requesting some consistency within the DA universe which is different from ours and does not need to mirror our demographics.
So, if user Z were to say "Please don't include x-ethnicity npcs in the game." you would infer from that that
a) User Z doesn't like x-ethnicity.
 User Z thinks that x-ethnicity was never present in the historical Europe upon which the game is, presumably, based. (and yes, I do know that David Gaider has said plenty of times that Thedas is not Europe)

Maybe, the only reason user Z would rather there not be x-ethnicity ingame is because, up until now, x-ethnicity has been absent and we have met representatives of all nations and there is no ingame reason why a previously invisible or inexistent group of people should suddenly become relevant.
Just because a person might not be pro-inclusion at the expense of everything else doesn't make that person a bigot.

Nevertheless, your reasons for not wanting a given ethnicity in game IS asserting a political statement, whether you consciously wish to or not.  That player is saying that they are perfectly okay with the game excluding a group of people.  If they privilege their preference for what they insist is only proper for reasons of consistency over the concerns of people who are bloody sick and tired of being excluded, made invisible, or just flat out erased, that is a form of bigotry. 

Bigotry does not have to be conscious or overt to exist.  Being willing to continue to disenfranchise poeple through their continued excludion in media qualifies, regardless of how benign you think those reasons are.

Stupidity does not have to be concious going by your post either, although it remains overt. It remains a perfect example of how asinine the accusation of bigotry has become when enyone who is explaining why any type of representation wouldn't make sense is a bigot. 

Why don't you just say it. You want the media in question to cater to your prefrences, instead of couching it in terms of social justice have the honesty to say you want to be given prefrence. 

There's nothing more that I despise than intellectual dishonesty. 

[Dave of Canada]

ElitePinecone wrote...

But on the face of it, it does seem a bit awkward - and games assuming the protagonist's heterosexuality is a particularly sore point for me.

Hawke's nobility at this point in time, he's expected to give an heir to the Amell line. s/s is tolerated amongst nobility as a quirk/private affair, seperated from the affairs of the house.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 26 novembre 2013 - 06:36 .

[Statare]

billy the squid wrote...

Silfren wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Silfren wrote...
That's the long and short of it.  Hell, any time people here complain that Bioware shouldn't include a given group of people in the game because it wouldn't be realistic to do so, they are making such statements about the way they perceive the world, even if that perception is extremely inaccurate against historical reality.  On a darker bent, I daresay some people making such statements are arguing for the way they want the world to be.

The moment you make that statement an absolute, is the moment it becomes innacurate. Perhaps some act exactly in the way you're describing for the reason you perceive but you should not place everyone within the same bag. A great many number of people could simply be requesting some consistency within the DA universe which is different from ours and does not need to mirror our demographics.
So, if user Z were to say "Please don't include x-ethnicity npcs in the game." you would infer from that that
a) User Z doesn't like x-ethnicity.
 User Z thinks that x-ethnicity was never present in the historical Europe upon which the game is, presumably, based. (and yes, I do know that David Gaider has said plenty of times that Thedas is not Europe)

Maybe, the only reason user Z would rather there not be x-ethnicity ingame is because, up until now, x-ethnicity has been absent and we have met representatives of all nations and there is no ingame reason why a previously invisible or inexistent group of people should suddenly become relevant.
Just because a person might not be pro-inclusion at the expense of everything else doesn't make that person a bigot.

Nevertheless, your reasons for not wanting a given ethnicity in game IS asserting a political statement, whether you consciously wish to or not.  That player is saying that they are perfectly okay with the game excluding a group of people.  If they privilege their preference for what they insist is only proper for reasons of consistency over the concerns of people who are bloody sick and tired of being excluded, made invisible, or just flat out erased, that is a form of bigotry. 

Bigotry does not have to be conscious or overt to exist.  Being willing to continue to disenfranchise poeple through their continued excludion in media qualifies, regardless of how benign you think those reasons are.

Stupidity does not have to be concious going by your post either, although it remains overt. It remains a perfect example of how asinine the accusation of bigotry has become when enyone who is explaining why any type of representation wouldn't make sense is a bigot. 

Why don't you just say it. You want the media in question to cater to your prefrences, instead of couching it in terms of social justice have the honesty to say you want to be given prefrence. 

There's nothing more that I despise than intellectual dishonesty. 

Since any Bioware game is a fictional story, the argument that any type of character "doesn't make sense" for it is pointless. Unless it is explained in the lore of the game, that Thedas is a heteronormative society (but in fact they've gone out of their way to say it is less so than ours), or that Thedas reflects our ethnic history, (probably not the case), then it is valid to argue for the representation of subjectivities that have been overlooked.

You are entitled to your opinion, and I am sorry you feel personally affronted, but that does not excuse you attacking another person's viewpoints as "stupidity". That is not mature, or belong here.

[Allan Schumacher]

Thread closed, bans coming.