454 réponses à ce sujet

[Statare]

Plaintiff wrote...

^

I have no problem with gay romances being cut-and-paste from straight romances. That's the way it should be I think; there's no reason why gay romances should have significantly different content from straight romances.

But if any romance has noticeably less content than others, then yes, I'd say that's a problem.

I don't have any issue with jokes about gay romances, even mean ones, anything's better than just ignoring it. But it would be nice if the player got to respond in some way.

I agree.

I think the Oghren / Shale / Gamlen jokes fit their characters.

Yet, I'm all about people sharing their feelings about things we take for granted, especially humor. I wrote a dissertation once upon a time about how humor is a regulatory force in society, so if people feel negatively about something that is supposed to be funny, I like legitimizing that person's negative affect. It took me a long time to be able to brush off phobic humor.

I also think people need to realize that humor can evoke drastically different affects in people. It's up to the writer to wonder if they are just trying to be funny for knee-jerk reactions or if that humor actually does something useful (like make a character more of a sleeze). It can be a valid question of laziness versus good writing.

[manbobjoe]

Honestly some people need thicker skin, it's a dark fantasy game, it's gonna have racism, sexism, and yes homophobia from some of the sleazier characters. It's really not the end of the world.

Modifié par manbobjoe, 25 novembre 2013 - 02:53 .

[Statare]

manbobjoe wrote...

Honestly some people need thicker skin, it's a dark fantasy game, it's gonna have racism, sexism, and yes homophobia from some of the sleazier characters. It's really not the end of the world.

If it makes sense for the character or the situations, sure. If there is no point to it, no. If the player character has no recourse than to 'put up with it or quit playing the game,' no. 

[sandalisthemaker]

manbobjoe wrote...

Honestly some people need thicker skin, it's a dark fantasy game, it's gonna have racism, sexism, and yes homophobia from some of the sleazier characters. It's really not the end of the world.

Everytime I see your username I think it says manboobjob.

[Hellion Rex]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

manbobjoe wrote...

Honestly some people need thicker skin, it's a dark fantasy game, it's gonna have racism, sexism, and yes homophobia from some of the sleazier characters. It's really not the end of the world.

Everytime I see your username I think it says manboobjob.

That explains everything.

[Thomas Andresen]

Like I get Gamlen is supposed to be a sleaze bag, but you could put more thought into the writing and not rely on tropes.

He's just as quick to fall into tropes with F/F romances. But not only is he a dick, he's also rather ...simple. I think that it would require him to be a significantly different character to not fall into tropes.

According to the Dragon Age wiki it only occurs with a male warden in a romance with Zevran.

A quick search on the wikia confirms this. Interestingly, neither of those two snippets appear on Oghren's wikia page.

[Thomas Andresen]

Honestly some people need thicker skin,

Some people need to get some perspective.

[sandalisthemaker]

Thomas Andresen wrote...

A quick search on the wikia confirms this. Interestingly, neither of those two snippets appear on Oghren's wikia page.

And this is why I'm hoping that either the Grey Warden or Iron Bull are available for S/S. They really need to subvert these tired old stereotypes.

[Hellion Rex]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Thomas Andresen wrote...

A quick search on the wikia confirms this. Interestingly, neither of those two snippets appear on Oghren's wikia page.

And this is why I'm hoping that either the Grey Warden or Iron Bull are available for S/S. They really need to subvert these tired old stereotypes.

Preach, my darling, preach!!!

[Statare]

Thomas Andresen wrote...

Like I get Gamlen is supposed to be a sleaze bag, but you could put more thought into the writing and not rely on tropes.

He's just as quick to fall into tropes with F/F romances. But not only is he a dick, he's also rather ...simple. I think that it would require him to be a significantly different character to not fall into tropes.

According to the Dragon Age wiki it only occurs with a male warden in a romance with Zevran.

A quick search on the wikia confirms this. Interestingly, neither of those two snippets appear on Oghren's wikia page.

I agree. I'm of the opinion that such bigotry is a good way to develop a bigoted character. I can just see how the way Hawke remains silent, is problematic and can make some people feel like the game itself is limiting their expression in favor of bigots. Why doesn't Hawke do or say anything to stand up for himself or criticize his bigoted uncle in such a personal matter?

edit: for either a female or a male Hawke. unintentional normalization of male subjectivity on my part.

Modifié par Statare, 25 novembre 2013 - 03:27 .

[Hellion Rex]

Statare wrote...

Thomas Andresen wrote...

Like I get Gamlen is supposed to be a sleaze bag, but you could put more thought into the writing and not rely on tropes.

He's just as quick to fall into tropes with F/F romances. But not only is he a dick, he's also rather ...simple. I think that it would require him to be a significantly different character to not fall into tropes.

According to the Dragon Age wiki it only occurs with a male warden in a romance with Zevran.

A quick search on the wikia confirms this. Interestingly, neither of those two snippets appear on Oghren's wikia page.

I agree. I'm of the opinion that such bigotry is a good way to develop a bigoted character. I can just see how the way Hawke remains silent, is problematic and can make some people feel like the game itself is limiting their expression in favor of bigots. Why doesn't Hawke do or say anything to stand up for himself or criticize his bigoted uncle in such a personal matter?

I would have killed for a dialogue option to rip Gamlen a new one.<_<
Like hell anyone will talk like that to my significant other...

[Thomas Andresen]

Why doesn't Hawke do or say anything to stand up for himself or criticize his bigoted uncle in such a personal matter?

Not to say BioWare shouldn't do better, but I think headcanon is the best way for players to handle shortcomings like that. I.e., he/she has heard it all before and is tired of criticising when it doesn't appear to have any effect. Which would make Gamlen seem even worse than he already was.

Edit: Also, for males it would be more about standing up for his SO than standing up for himself. For females, he's not so much insulting as he is incredibly leery; I imagine the best reaction would be a gibslap.

Modifié par Thomas Andresen, 25 novembre 2013 - 03:36 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

While I think it was a problem that S/S romances seemed to have no corresponding dialogue to many straight romance equivalents (I'm had a male Dalish then a female Aeducan romance Leliana and some conversations for the former were apparently just absent in the latter.), I'm pretty sure I remember Oghren being sleazy and inappropriate with straight romances like Morrigan's and Alistair's too.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 25 novembre 2013 - 03:37 .

[Direwolf0294]

I like how Gamlen manages to be racist, sexist and homophobic in a single sentence. That takes some real skill.

I think that sort of stuff's okay if it fits the character, but I'd also like to see it turned around (such as a character who questions a hetero relationship, or asks who's the woman in the relationship while implying being the man is a negative) and I think the player should always have the option to call a character out on those sort of comments.

[Thomas Andresen]

I'm had a male Dalish then a female Aeducan romance Leliana and some conversations for the former were just apparently absent in the latter.

That was how I remembered it from Origins as well. And the Dragon Age wiki seems to confirm this.

[Thomas Andresen]

I like how Gamlen manages to be racist, sexist and homophobic in a single sentence. That takes some real skill.

Or an incredible lack thereof.

[Angrywolves]

uh no. DAI should have 0 resemblence to DA2.

[CuriousArtemis]

Hmm. Male Warden x Zevran and Male Hawke x Fenris are my canon playthroughs, so let me weigh in on this. *taps chin*

I honestly don't recall the romance in DA:O being made fun of by anyone. The only time someone commented on the romance, as I recall, was Wynne. She told my Warden that a romance with Zevran was distracting him from his Warden-y duties and what not. Later on, she admitted she was wrong, could see that they loved one another, and apologized. I thought that was quite lovely, really!

Some of the others may have commented, but I don't remember if they did. And I remember in one banter Zevran makes reference to "a strong pair of hands" (meaning the male Warden, his lover), whereas in a romance with a female Warden he references something more feminine (which would annoy me personally, but it's Zevran and fits his character).

In DA2, there is the Gamlen comment, and it does fit his character. My jaw dropped when he said it, but then I also kind of laughed at the sheer audacity of it. I do think it would have been nice if Hawke had responded. Sarcastic Hawke makes a sarcastic come back, aggressive Hawke tells him to hold his tongue, and so on.

All I can say, judging from my own playthroughs, is that I didn't feel my characters' romances were ignored or treated as a joke in either game. Rude characters were rude, and kind characters were kind. *shrugs*

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Yeah I mean it's worth noting that not all the conversations that were "missing" from S/S versions of romances were positive. For example there's one where Morrigan mocks Leliana if she romances a male Warden because "One would think you'd never seen a man before." So in my opinion I think the main problem in Origins was more along the lines of a lower number of references than most of the content of the references.

Frankly, I think I'd kinda prefer more references to the PC's romance in general. I remember DA2 had a few for the FemHawke/Isabella romance (I think it was about the same as the MaleHawke/Merrill one I tried), but I still felt like it wasn't a lot.

[Fredward]

manboobjob wrote...
Honestly some people need thicker skin, it's a dark fantasy game, it's gonna have racism, sexism, and yes homophobia from some of the sleazier characters. It's really not the end of the world.

Manboobjob these only make sense if the setting has a reason for these prejudices being present on a large scale. Racism makes sense, not so much homophobia and sexism. Although I also wanna say that I'd expect homophobia to be more present in dwarf society, they have more reason than anyone to want to breed. And also maybe the Dalish. Although I think they'd be WAAAAAAAY more upset if you banged a human.

Anyway so yeah Ogrhen's comments made sense considering his character and background.

Modifié par Foopydoopydoo, 25 novembre 2013 - 06:25 .

[Maria Caliban]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

manbobjoe wrote...

Honestly some people need thicker skin, it's a dark fantasy game, it's gonna have racism, sexism, and yes homophobia from some of the sleazier characters. It's really not the end of the world.

Everytime I see your username I think it says manboobjob.

I will never be able to read it as anything but that now, disturbing image and all. Thank you.

[IndomitusRex]

Honestly, I hope that DAI leans more towards what ME3 did with same sex romances than DA2. A character's sexuality is a part of their identity, and it shouldn't simply be a dialogue-based opt-in for our player character. If a character is gay, make them gay. If the character is a lesbian, make them a lesbian. Having every character as being 100% bisexual just strains my suspension of disbelief.

ME3 handled this right. While it's true that there weren't same sex relationships throughout the series, the writers did add some options that I thought were handled in a very thoughtful and mature manner. I thought that Steven Cortez and Samantha Traynor were interesting characters first, and homosexual love interests second. I liked that by helping Cortez get over the loss of his deceased husband I wasn't then forced to ward off his aggressive sexual advances. The option to pursue a relationship with him came up precisely once, and it wasn't overbearing. I also liked that Cortez was best buds with Vega, the ultra-masculine macho dude, who was perfectly comfortable with Cortez's sexuality.

I'd have been very annoyed if Garrus or Joker had suddenly started throwing themselves at my Shepard. I'd have been upset not because of some ingrained homophobia (which, like it or not, is present to some degree or another in nearly the entire target audience for ME and DA games), but because they've changed the dynamic between Shepard and Garrus, and not for the better. Instead of a trusted brother-in-arms and second-in-command, that's now muddied with a dose of jilted lover.

I think a spread along the lines of one gay character, one bisexual character, and two or three straight characters per gender (assuming we get 9-10 characters) is a realistic and fair distribution. Biology influences culture, and certainly in any culture that has not yet developed reproductive technologies like in vitro fertilization, homosexuality would remain unusual (not immoral, just not usual)

[Plaintiff]

Giving straight players at least twice as many options is 'fair distribution'? What definition of 'fair' are you using?

Why would giving Garrus or Joker an interest in same-sex relationships ruin a friendship with them? Is that how you would treat your friends in real life?

[Battlebloodmage]

IndomitusRex wrote...

Honestly, I hope that DAI leans more towards what ME3 did with same sex romances than DA2. A character's sexuality is a part of their identity, and it shouldn't simply be a dialogue-based opt-in for our player character. If a character is gay, make them gay. If the character is a lesbian, make them a lesbian. Having every character as being 100% bisexual just strains my suspension of disbelief.

ME3 handled this right. While it's true that there weren't same sex relationships throughout the series, the writers did add some options that I thought were handled in a very thoughtful and mature manner. I thought that Steven Cortez and Samantha Traynor were interesting characters first, and homosexual love interests second. I liked that by helping Cortez get over the loss of his deceased husband I wasn't then forced to ward off his aggressive sexual advances. The option to pursue a relationship with him came up precisely once, and it wasn't overbearing. I also liked that Cortez was best buds with Vega, the ultra-masculine macho dude, who was perfectly comfortable with Cortez's sexuality.

I'd have been very annoyed if Garrus or Joker had suddenly started throwing themselves at my Shepard. I'd have been upset not because of some ingrained homophobia (which, like it or not, is present to some degree or another in nearly the entire target audience for ME and DA games), but because they've changed the dynamic between Shepard and Garrus, and not for the better. Instead of a trusted brother-in-arms and second-in-command, that's now muddied with a dose of jilted lover.

I think a spread along the lines of one gay character, one bisexual character, and two or three straight characters per gender (assuming we get 9-10 characters) is a realistic and fair distribution. Biology influences culture, and certainly in any culture that has not yet developed reproductive technologies like in vitro fertilization, homosexuality would remain unusual (not immoral, just not usual)

Vitro fertilization creates more gay people? 

There is no need to bring up this argument again because Gaider has stated his opinion on this. Unless there is a way to give a fairer distribution, it's gonna be herosexual or however you want to call it. If he has a choice, he would prefer to have sexual orientation for every companion. Can we just stay on topic? I don't know how many times threads have been locked up because of herosexual arguments. This thread has nothing to do with it. 

Modifié par Battlebloodmage, 25 novembre 2013 - 07:43 .

[Khevan77]

I'm ok with a bigoted character in a game, so long as there's the option to tell them to go shove it someplace painful. I don't particularly want to see every character in every game be 100% politically correct, I just don't want that bigotry to be tacitly ok due to either the main character or other character's silence.

For example, in ME1, Harkin can be a misogynistic pig to a female Shepard, but she's got the option to put him in his place. That was a place where it was done well, fit the character, and let the player address it in a satisfying way.

The following is a serious question to gay players in this thread. Is this an acceptable way of handling things from your perspective? I'm not gay, so I don't have the life experiences you do, and I don't have to deal with any discrimination involved with that. So, I'd like your opinion on my thinking. I'm always looking for more information to help me understand, as much as I am able to. Thanks.