454 réponses à ce sujet

[Hazegurl]

I actually prefer DA's approach. Who says the characters are bisexual? If they never say they are then why should I call them such simply because I can metagame and know they can romance both sexes? Anders never mention being attracted to men to a FHawke, you don't know Fenris's sexual orientation, and Isabella makes it plain that she is bi. But we've been through this merry go round before.

I would love for there to be more romance dialogue and banter. I love that Hawke can tease Fenris in the Legacy DLC. We need more of that. Gamlen's comment made me laugh, it fits him. The way I see is that he's a lonely old man who can only buy love for an hour. There is nothing for my Hawke to say to him. lol!

[Plaintiff]

Khevan77 wrote...
The following is a serious question to gay players in this thread. Is this an acceptable way of handling things from your perspective? I'm not gay, so I don't have the life experiences you do, and I don't have to deal with any discrimination involved with that. So, I'd like your opinion on my thinking. I'm always looking for more information to help me understand, as much as I am able to. Thanks.

There's nothing wrong with having characters display bigotry. Bigotry is something that really happens, and it's fair game for exploration in fiction.

If, on the other hand, I thought the author was displaying bigotry in their text, then I would be very critical.

[The Qun & the Damned]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

manbobjoe wrote...

Honestly some people need thicker skin, it's a dark fantasy game, it's gonna have racism, sexism, and yes homophobia from some of the sleazier characters. It's really not the end of the world.

Everytime I see your username I think it says manboobjob.

Well now, I found my future inquisitor's name, thank you 

[Khevan77]

Plaintiff wrote...

Khevan77 wrote...
The following is a serious question to gay players in this thread. Is this an acceptable way of handling things from your perspective? I'm not gay, so I don't have the life experiences you do, and I don't have to deal with any discrimination involved with that. So, I'd like your opinion on my thinking. I'm always looking for more information to help me understand, as much as I am able to. Thanks.

There's nothing wrong with having characters display bigotry. Bigotry is something that really happens, and it's fair game for exploration in fiction.

If, on the other hand, I thought the author was displaying bigotry in their text, then I would be very critical.

Thanks for the answer, I appreciate it.  I am fully in agreement with you on that.  I actually like having bigoted characters in games, because it's just so satisfying to smack them down. 

[nightscrawl]

I've always thought this exchange was cute/amusing:

Varric: So... you and Hawke?
Fenris: What about us?

(If Hawke is female)
Varric: I want to make sure I get all the details right when I tell this story. Did you sweep her off her feet or was it the other way around?

(If Hawke is male)
Varric: I want to make sure I get all the details right when I tell this story. Did he sweep you off your feet? I'm assuming he did the sweeping. He's taller than you. Awkward, otherwise.

Fenris: I'm not telling you anything but this: There was no actual sweeping involved.
Varric: Every little bit helps, elf.

Also, regarding the height: when Fenris is NOT slouching, he and femHawke are the same height, which is about three inches shorter than the human male.

[Nightdragon8]

i really don't see why people are complaining... both hetro and ****** relationships got bashed in one way or another. Ogaran is Ogaran. I know plenty of people who are exactly like him. The same with Gamelin, I know plently of douchbag's honestly worse than he is. (Not many but a few)

[Snook]

Well, we're pretty much just talking about Zevran here, because the F/F Leliana romance got pretty much 0 acknowledgment in party banter.

[Zazzerka]

SergeantSnookie wrote...

Well, we're pretty much just talking about Zevran here, because the F/F Leliana romance got pretty much 0 acknowledgment in party banter.

I betcha they're all thinking about it, though.

[Snook]

Zazzerka wrote...

SergeantSnookie wrote...

Well, we're pretty much just talking about Zevran here, because the F/F Leliana romance got pretty much 0 acknowledgment in party banter.

I betcha they're all thinking about it, though.

Quietly. 

Probably in their tents. 

[StarLitStranger]

SergeantSnookie wrote...

Quietly. 

Probably in their tents. 

Just wait till they see my beautiful lady kossith romance Cassandra.

Your permant 'witch' face says no but those little hearts on your armor say "Yes!"

Modifié par StarLitStranger, 25 novembre 2013 - 10:17 .

[IndomitusRex]

I didn't say twice as many, I said one gay, one bisexual (both options for same sex relationships), and two (or three) straight characters.  That's pretty even, considering that most studies seem to indicate that 10% or less of the population identifies itself as homosexual (and a lot of surveys place it less than 5%).

And yes, Plaintiff, finding that a character that I've enjoyed for years has had another option for his sexual inclinations shoe-horned in for purposes of appealing/pandering to a niche market would bother me.  I don't like retcons.  And of course finding out that a friend has romantic feelings for you can have a negative impact (homosexual or heterosexual), though it does depend on how it's handled.  The Cortez relationship is a good example; it's a simple, low-key "no thanks", and you see it coming.  With Anders or Fenris, however, you get backed into a corner.  While pursuing a perfectly platonic friendship they profess their love for you, and your scripted rejection option is met with a hissy-fit that boils down to "fine, be that way".

My comment about in vitro fertilization allowing for an increased homosexual population was based on the premise that homosexuality is a genetically heritable trait, and that homosexual individuals would probably not choose to engage in heteresexual intercourse for purposes of procreation.

Plaintiff wrote...

Giving straight players at least twice as many options is 'fair distribution'? What definition of 'fair' are you using?

Why would giving Garrus or Joker an interest in same-sex relationships ruin a friendship with them? Is that how you would treat your friends in real life?

[The Elder King]

@IndomitusRex: your approach isn't going to be used. Gaider said that their goal is to give everyone multiple choices. Your approach will not give multiple, equal choices for those who want to engage in homosexuals romances (and one of the male/female heterosexuals, if there'll be only two straight LI).
Either we'll have four bisexual/playersexual LI, or six different LI, with 2 hetero, two homosexual and two bisexual LI.

Modifié par hhh89, 25 novembre 2013 - 02:50 .

[Plaintiff]

IndomitusRex wrote...
I didn't say twice as many, I said one gay, one bisexual (both options for same sex relationships), and two (or three) straight characters.  That's pretty even, considering that most studies seem to indicate that 10% or less of the population identifies itself as homosexual (and a lot of surveys place it less than 5%).

I know what you said. And if you do the math, your proposed model gives up to twice as many options to "straight" players. They get three straight options, plus the bisexual option. Homosexuals only get the bisexual option and the exculsive option.

There's no such thing as "pretty even". Even means "equal in number, amount or value". That means everybody gets the same amount of content. Things are either even or uneven, there is no in-between.

Why should homosexuals put up with "pretty even" anyway? Why should they get less content just because there are less of them? Why is the percentage of homosexuals in the population even relevant to this discussion at all? Is that the same logic you use for everything that homosexuals are denied? That because there aren't as many of them, they should just put up with being treated unfairly?

Oh, but I forgot. People only create 'gay' content to 'pander to a niche market', while heterosexual romances are a bold, legitimatly artistic decision that are in no way intended to increase the product's commercial appeal. After all, it's not as if homosexuality is a controversial topic that attracts criticism from many corners, and Bioware certainly doesn't put themselves at risk by including it, so their motivation couldn't possibly be that it's simply the right thing to do.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 25 novembre 2013 - 03:03 .

[Spaghetti_Ninja]

Couldn't disagree more. I'd like gay romances to have some different dialogue options and reactions from party members. Otherwise, what's the point really? I have no other incentive to play them.

I like how it was done in Jade Empire, where Silk Fox actually had to take some time to get used to the idea of a female player character being into her. Some actual surprise that a woman would compliment her like that. I hate this ''gay, out of the closet, 100% fine with it straight off the bat'' stance that every single playersexual character in ME and DA seems to have.

And I don't like when everybody in the world accepts it 100%. I get that it's some sort of utopic view that homosexuals have, that nobody in the world would raise an eyebrow, but it's far from realistic and most of all it's BORING. I guess I just like to be naughty, and total acceptance and tolerance makes it bland as hell.

[Hellion Rex]

Spaghetti_Ninja wrote...

Couldn't disagree more. I'd like gay romances to have some different dialogue options and reactions from party members. Otherwise, what's the point really? I have no other incentive to play them.

I like how it was done in Jade Empire, where Silk Fox actually had to take some time to get used to the idea of a female player character being into her. Some actual surprise that a woman would compliment her like that. I hate this ''gay, out of the closet, 100% fine with it straight off the bat'' stance that every single playersexual character in ME and DA seems to have.

And I don't like when everybody in the world accepts it 100%. I get that it's some sort of utopic view that homosexuals have, that nobody in the world would raise an eyebrow, but it's far from realistic and most of all it's BORING. I guess I just like to be naughty, and total acceptance and tolerance makes it bland as hell.

Heaven forbid that you be bored.<_<
And it is hardly utopic to desire some acceptance.

Modifié par eluvianix, 25 novembre 2013 - 05:06 .

[Spaghetti_Ninja]

eluvianix wrote...
Heaven forbid that you be bored.<_<

Yes, I don't play games to be bored.

DA has sexism and racism (and a whole lot of other -isms that don't even exist, such as mageism) but homophobia is magically non-existant.

And it is hardly utopic to desire some acceptance.

Some acceptance, sure. I didn't say every character in this game should be a raging homophobe that does a spit-take every time two guys kiss. But the balance is off right now.

Modifié par Spaghetti_Ninja, 25 novembre 2013 - 05:10 .

[ScarMK]

Any sexism I've seen is down to individuals. Racism seems to be rather uniform though.

[lxwkl31]

Plaintiff wrote...

IndomitusRex wrote...
I didn't say twice as many, I said one gay, one bisexual (both options for same sex relationships), and two (or three) straight characters.  That's pretty even, considering that most studies seem to indicate that 10% or less of the population identifies itself as homosexual (and a lot of surveys place it less than 5%).

I know what you said. And if you do the math, your proposed model gives up to twice as many options to "straight" players. They get three straight options, plus the bisexual option. Homosexuals only get the bisexual option and the exculsive option.

There's no such thing as "pretty even". Even means "equal in number, amount or value". That means everybody gets the same amount of content. Things are either even or uneven, there is no in-between.

Why should homosexuals put up with "pretty even" anyway? Why should they get less content just because there are less of them? Why is the percentage of homosexuals in the population even relevant to this discussion at all? Is that the same logic you use for everything that homosexuals are denied? That because there aren't as many of them, they should just put up with being treated unfairly?

Oh, but I forgot. People only create 'gay' content to 'pander to a niche market', while heterosexual romances are a bold, legitimatly artistic decision that are in no way intended to increase the product's commercial appeal. After all, it's not as if homosexuality is a controversial topic that attracts criticism from many corners, and Bioware certainly doesn't put themselves at risk by including it, so their motivation couldn't possibly be that it's simply the right thing to do.

I think you just became my hero! 

[Afro_Explosion]

The dragon age universe has better tolerance than most of the world, the sexism or homophobia is restricted to individuals, same sex romances shouldn't be"look mommy theres two guys/girls kissing burn the monsters". It should be no different than a hetero romance, because most thedosian cultures dont have the ingrained homophobia that ours does.

Modifié par mx_keep13, 25 novembre 2013 - 06:21 .

[Statare]

Khevan77 wrote...

I'm ok with a bigoted character in a game, so long as there's the option to tell them to go shove it someplace painful. I don't particularly want to see every character in every game be 100% politically correct, I just don't want that bigotry to be tacitly ok due to either the main character or other character's silence.

For example, in ME1, Harkin can be a misogynistic pig to a female Shepard, but she's got the option to put him in his place. That was a place where it was done well, fit the character, and let the player address it in a satisfying way.

The following is a serious question to gay players in this thread. Is this an acceptable way of handling things from your perspective? I'm not gay, so I don't have the life experiences you do, and I don't have to deal with any discrimination involved with that. So, I'd like your opinion on my thinking. I'm always looking for more information to help me understand, as much as I am able to. Thanks.

I think the main issue is that a lot of gay, lesbian or queer positive moments are absent. I don't care if you are given the option to verbally accost someone, just given a stock sigh when someone says something, or there are written avowals. The problem is is that gay, lesbian or queer characters are only given moments of silence.

For instance, for a male Hawke you can already be in a s/s romance (I bet this is true for female Hawke too), and your mother in Act 2 will say "now all that's left is to find you a wife (probably husband for female)". It's left for the player to either disavow that in their head, headcanon it, or ignore it. It is ambiguous content that assumes normalcy for a straight Hawke and gives no recourse for a non-straight Hawke. It's a bit weird, that a non-straight Hawke never gets to tell their mamá querida that she should quit looking. It's a subtle issue, that to me is a bit trivializing and assuming of either a heterosexual or silenced queer subjectivity. Does that make sense?

[In Exile]

Spaghetti_Ninja wrote...
Some acceptance, sure. I didn't say every character in this game should be a raging homophobe that does a spit-take every time two guys kiss. But the balance is off right now.

The balance being that characters that are bisexual are not turned off by flirting with a gender they're sexually atracted to?

Modifié par In Exile, 25 novembre 2013 - 05:55 .

[Peer of the Empire]

Normal hetero interactions pls

[StarLitStranger]

In Exile wrote...

Spaghetti_Ninja wrote...
Some acceptance, sure. I didn't say every character in this game should be a raging homophobe that does a spit-take every time two guys kiss. But the balance is off right now.

The balance being that characters that are bisexual are not turned off by flirting with a gender they're sexually atracted to?

I think homophobia is far more off-putting then bisexuality.

[Reznore57]

Statare wrote...

For instance, for a male Hawke you can already be in a s/s romance (I bet this is true for female Hawke too), and your mother in Act 2 will say "now all that's left is to find you a wife (probably husband for female)". It's left for the player to either disavow that in their head, headcanon it, or ignore it. It is ambiguous content that assumes normalcy for a straight Hawke and gives no recourse for a non-straight Hawke. It's a bit weird, that a non-straight Hawke never gets to tell their mamá querida that she should quit looking. It's a subtle issue, that to me is a bit trivializing and assuming of either a heterosexual or silenced queer subjectivity. Does that make sense?

Playing a straight Hawke , I also wasn't really happy with Leandra 's wedding plans.
It's not wierd at all even if you're gay , arranged marriage are not about what you want or what you like.
It's about having heir , and getting more powerful by having family ties with another rich noble family.

[Statare]

Spaghetti_Ninja wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
Heaven forbid that you be bored.<_<

Yes, I don't play games to be bored.

DA has sexism and racism (and a whole lot of other -isms that don't even exist, such as mageism) but homophobia is magically non-existant.

And it is hardly utopic to desire some acceptance.

Some acceptance, sure. I didn't say every character in this game should be a raging homophobe that does a spit-take every time two guys kiss. But the balance is off right now.

It is a tough balance. I think it can be a little bizarre to have same sex relations treated like a 'non-issue'. And that is part of the problem, in my opinion. You have these relations with a character of the same sex, you hardly ever talk about it with them in the romance or scenes from the straight romance that were cut and so there are these weird 'gaps', and the only time your sexuality is even brought up is by a bigoted character. The result is kind of a 'taboo' on talking positively about non-straight sexuality.

I mentioned this earlier, but Isabela talks to a male Hawke in a relationship with Anders and endearingly talks to Hawke about the joys of good sex in which the 'passive' role is not treated as lessor. That is a good moment because sexuality is not treated like a 'non-issue' best left to silence. In general, Isabela is a compelling character because she is open, honest, and talkative about her sexuality (all aspects). It is a difficult balancing act, because in many ways not having same sex relationships mentioned is as bad as not including them. The problem gets compounded when straight romances with the same characters are more developed and when bigoted characters always get the final say.