393 réponses à ce sujet

[dorktainian]

yay for the Raloi....

[Vicious]

I will bet that whatever ending you chose, the reapers are not going to be in the galaxy. There may be a 1 minute cutscene showing the results of your ending choice, and no matter what you chose it will have little or no impact on the new game.

yep

Destroy - as is.

Control - Shepard retreats to Dark Space with Reapers.

Synthesis - slight texture change to all in game models.

yep

whatever, its not a big crying deal, glad to play more mass effect because it's fun, and progress the story.

a prequel or sidequel never made any damn sense.

Modifié par Vicious, 28 novembre 2013 - 05:58 .

[NeonFlux117]

I learned something new about Mass Effect I did not know before. The Raloi. Thanks BSN.

[RickShaw]

Killdren88 wrote...

Better than a prequel or an AU I suppose.

[ElitePinecone]

SC0TTYD00 wrote...

They have taken multiple polls and they have always pointed to "No we dont want a prequel"

If it ends up being a prequel then it proves once and for all that BW don't listen to their fans.

If you seriously believe that last sentence, I don't even know what to think. 

Online polls aren't scientific (neither are counting Twitter replies, while we're at it) and the sort of people who reply to them aren't at all representative of the wider Mass Effect fanbase. They're a fair indicator of what the people who hang around BSN think, but not so good for the millions and millions of other Mass Effect players who don't even know that this forum exists. Until you ask them (or enough of them to get a representative sample!), claiming that *any* position represents "the fans" as a whole is deeply, deeply incorrect. 

I suppose you could say "if it ends up being a prequel then it proves once and for all that BW don't listen to the tiny minority of super-hardcore invested fans who hang around on the internet and care so much about the game that they bother to reply to online polls about it years after ME3's launch", but that doesn't feel as snappy. I know the tendency is to believe that super-invested fans' opinions should matter the most because they care the most, but thankfully that's not how Bioware make decisions in the real world. You can care deeply about a game and never post here.

There's also a tendency to assume that this community *is* the fanbase or should *represent* the entire fanbase, but this is just demonstrably not true - if you take that stance, you're ignoring and silencing every other person who has played the game, or is interested in it, but not to the point that they'll post on an internet forum for years. 

If this sort of abuse of statistics is going to keep cropping up (*especially* if people use them to justify hating on Bioware in the event that the game isn't a sequel) it kinda proves the absolute necessity of scrapping BSN polls. Too many people use them too easily to make completely misleading points. 

[EatChildren]

Even though the data isn't anywhere near reliable enough to make drastic decisions regarding the fate of the series, I will say that an overwhelming majority of polls and queries regarding sequel/prequel/midquel, not just here but on other websites, twitter, and so on, even if distanced from BioWare, have leaned almost if not unanimously in favour of a sequel. To the point where I'd say if you in any way looked at "the internet" response to the question, even if recognising it as a limited sample, I think you'd walk away with the belief a majority of that sample does prefer a sequel.

My concern with trying to gauge whether or not a prequel is what people want is that, I think, a prequel should be inherently more attractive to the most dedicated and invested fans of a series. The group of people most knowledgeable and invested in the lore should be, ideally, the same people most likely to be receptive and appreciative of a prequel that helps fill in the gaps and explore canon they're familiar and interested in. By definition, casual fans are less likely to be invested in what a prequel can offer. Which is not to say they'd be dismissive of a prequel at all, but more likely that they just wouldn't care if there wasn't a prequel, it wouldn't be their first request for a new game, and may care more if the next game was a continuation.

When your (admittedly limited) sample group is really rather vocal that they want a sequel, and this same group is also composed of extremely dedicated players who should be receptive to lore expanding prequels, just as they are with books/comics, I think that does send a message somewhat.

[Sion1138]

SC0TTYD00 wrote...

I know right? As soon as I read it. I thought. Wow thats cool! I thought that it sort of lined up with the lore and those leaks we heard the other day about new races. I saw it on reddit  there was a thread (not even mass effect related but vgx related) there talking about Mass Effect in the comments. Someone posted a comment then literally a minute later it was gone. The reason I suspect that it might be true was for this reason. I mean like why would they delete it so fast. Maybe a dev or someone who knew a dev posted it and then thought, ahhh cwap! Better not. 

Or it could have been a troll that changed its mind. But don't trolls feed of the responses they get etc...

There was so little detail and I dont remember the username of the poster as it was gone so quick. Sorry I dont have more information everyone.

I like how you refer to trolls as "it", like they are of some other species. 

Tali Zorah, does this troll have...

Yeah, I like the idea. We can only hope that it will indeed be something like this. But I've become superstitious lately, it seems that the more people's expectations agree, the less likely they are to pass.

[Sion1138]

ElitePinecone wrote...

SC0TTYD00 wrote...

They have taken multiple polls and they have always pointed to "No we dont want a prequel"

If it ends up being a prequel then it proves once and for all that BW don't listen to their fans.

If you seriously believe that last sentence, I don't even know what to think. 

Online polls aren't scientific (neither are counting Twitter replies, while we're at it) and the sort of people who reply to...

There you go again with the science in what isn't a scientific matter.

I'm a Satanist, no... Saganist and I appreciate the scientific method greatly but that doesn't mean I'll apply it to every single problem in existence, doing so would in actuality make my thought process rather unscientific.

The "issue" here should be viewed from a myriad of different perspectives, including literary and psychological.

But, for the sake of discussion, what methods would you resort to in order to accurately gauge audience concensus for the purpose of informing your decision as to the most favorable choice of narrative direction?

Modifié par Sion1138, 28 novembre 2013 - 01:26 .

[dorktainian]

can i suggest that since the aim of the game was to destroy the reapers, that this is used as canonical?

[ElitePinecone]

EatChildren wrote...
I think that does send a message somewhat.

Sure, I'm not just sure the message should necessarily be taken as seriously as people here might want it to be. If feedback for something like the time period for the next game is only taken from a relatively small die-hard group who post on the BSN/"internet" more than a year after the game's launch, that does leave out masses of people who may have other (just as valid) opinions. 

(And that's not even considering that Bioware might have its own reasons for wanting to set the game in a particular era, regardless of what the BSN thinks - maybe the Montreal studio is really interested in how humans first learned to work well with aliens, or whatever.)

My issue with claiming that a BSN consensus should be taken as general fan opinion is that people lose perspective, and you get accusations like "a prequel means they're not listening to the fans!!!", when it's clear we have no idea what the vast majority of the fanbase thinks about this (if they even have an opinion about it at all). I guess I'm just wary of a sort of echo-chamber mentality, where it becomes easy to find a fan consensus about something even though the BSN doesn't include 90% (99%?) or whatever of people who played the game. 

I don't think the studio should necessarily be criticised for not obeying the wishes of "the fans", when this is taken to mean a very small core of users on the BSN. People shouldn't expect their views to be privileged and listened to just because they're really, really, really engaged with the series, basically. 

[ElitePinecone]

Sion1138 wrote...

But, for the sake of discussion, what methods would you resort to in order to accurately gauge audience concensus for the purpose of informing your decision as to the most favorable choice of narrative direction?

I'm not really in favour of applying the scientific method to everything - I just get frustrated when people misuse it to argue something.  Appealing to the authority of statistics to settle an argument is no good if those statistics are junk. 

If people said "hey, my opinion is that I want a sequel" - cool. If people said "hey, it looks like lots of people on the BSN want a sequel!" - yeah, that seems true! But invoking *the entire fanbase* to suppot that position on the basis of flimsy, non-representative information is a step too far. Maybe it's just the language used - I'm really tired of people using "the fans" to mean a kind of weird hivemind where it's assumed everyone shares the same opinion. If they arrive at that view and claim authority to make a judgement because of internet polls ("polls showed X, so if Bioware does Y it means they're ~betraying the fans~"), that's when statistics are being abused. 

If we really did want to poll the *entire* fanbase to find out their views once and for all about a prequel/sequel (assuming they even cared!), the best method is to randomly send surveys to a bunch of people (usually about 1000-2000, which is statistically enough for mathematical reasons that I don't understand) from a pool of everyone who bought, say, ME3. EA could maybe do this with Origin emails that link to PSN/Xbox Live, but they'd probably miss players who didn't use online features. Write well-constructed questions, do some really hard maths to crunch the results, and there should be solid data. 

(I suppose they could also do something similar on the BSN by randomly sending out survey emails to people with a registered Mass Effect game, come to think of it. If we were particularly interested in the BSN fans' views, that would be the best way to gauge them.)

Modifié par ElitePinecone, 28 novembre 2013 - 03:46 .

[Sion1138]

ElitePinecone wrote...

I'm not really in favour of applying the scientific method to everything - I just get frustrated when people misuse it to argue something.  Appealing to the authority of statistics to settle an argument is no good if those statistics are junk. 

...[Cut]

If we really did want to poll the *entire* fanbase to find out their views once and for all about a prequel/sequel (assuming they even cared!), the best method is to randomly send surveys to a bunch of people (usually about 1000-2000, which is statistically enough for mathematical reasons that I don't understand) from a pool of everyone who bought, say, ME3. EA could maybe do this with Origin emails that link to PSN/Xbox Live, but they'd probably miss players who didn't use online features. Write well-constructed questions, do some really hard maths to crunch the results, and there should be solid data. 

(I suppose they could also do something similar on the BSN by randomly sending out survey emails to people with a registered Mass Effect game, come to think of it. If we were particularly interested in the BSN fans' views, that would be the best way to gauge them.)

In general, you are absolutely right. But, more complexity awaits.

Basically, this method should suffice. The data would be well randomized and the sample sufficient but you would also have to take great care in picking your questions.

---------------------------------------

BioWare games are difficult to analyze. They are narrative driven role-playing games primarily, but they also feature other attributes. 

So, if you are asking the players what they would like to see with regards to the story, then you should look to ask those players who put more importance on story than on combat and vice versa.

There has to be a filtering mechanism.

---------------------------------------

Since the game consist of a multitude of aspects, you ought to ask the right people about the right things. So, players who primarily like the shooting will not particularily care whether you make it a prequel or a sequel. 

And there's yet more detail, even among those who play for the story, there are differences. For example, some people care mostly about the characters. As in how well they are realized, how complex their personalities are, how well the romances are realized and so on...

So those people won't be particularily bothered by whether the game is a prequel or a sequel either.

More filtering.

---------------------------------------

To conclude:

We asked a very specific question here, and while 95 percent of those you ask will tell you their personal preference, you don't really know how imporant this particular aspect is to them and how much it will contribute to the likelihood of them purchasing the game.

Unless you ask all the right questions and filter the data, which in turn will yield a smaller sample size.

Addendum:

So then, as to the BSN we should not ask whether it is representative of the entire player base but whether it is representative of a subset of players who place the greatest importance on one thing or another.

This might be worth looking at. Perhaps the most ardent fans would indeed be the proper group to ask about this particular issue.

Modifié par Sion1138, 28 novembre 2013 - 08:04 .

[crimzontearz]

So wait a second, since these polls are unscientific and as such trascurable in their results thus Bioware should just ignore them and do a prequel then, pinecone, you are agreeing Bioware asked the question either A: hoping to get the answer they wanted seeing what they wanted to do already or B: for no better reason than boredom because they knew a priori the answer did not matter

[Oni Changas]

Who gives a flying crap about science poles?

[mass perfection]

I can't imagine BW making a sequel to the Mass Effect trilogy without making some things in the current trilogy default for all imports which would result in an angry fanbase.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Look, if they make a prequel, they'll have an angry fanbase.
If they make a sidequel, they'll have an angry fanbase.
If they make a sequel, they'll have an angry fanbase.
If they make an AU, they'll have an angry fanbase.

Therefore, they're going to do what they want and the fanbase is going to buy the game, deal with it, and b**** moan and complain anyway. Tell me it's going to be any other way. This is BSN.

[Sion1138]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Look, if they make a prequel, they'll have an angry fanbase.
If they make a sidequel, they'll have an angry fanbase.
If they make a sequel, they'll have an angry fanbase.
If they make an AU, they'll have an angry fanbase.

Therefore, they're going to do what they want and the fanbase is going to buy the game, deal with it, and b**** moan and complain anyway. Tell me it's going to be any other way. This is BSN.

Are you going to dog, moan and complain?

Modifié par Sion1138, 29 novembre 2013 - 01:55 .

[ElitePinecone]

crimzontearz wrote...

So wait a second, since these polls are unscientific and as such trascurable in their results thus Bioware should just ignore them and do a prequel then, pinecone, you are agreeing Bioware asked the question either A: hoping to get the answer they wanted seeing what they wanted to do already or B: for no better reason than boredom because they knew a priori the answer did not matter

They can be handy for finding out what a hardcore segment of the fanbase thinks, I suppose. Sort of a gut check - throw out a question and filter through the responses, the same way they run review/feedback threads on the BSN. 

I don't know why Bioware runs those sort of polls, or how the "results" are treated internally (at a guess, they're used to gauge feedback about decisions that have already been made). It's when people outside Bioware try to give these polls *undue* legitimacy that it becomes a problem. Using the results is fine, as long as it's always kept in mind how limited they are, and how small + unrepresentative the pool of replies are compared to the larger fanbase. 

(Though obviously, if anyone in Bioware was actually using questions on Twitter as a substitute for market research or whatever, that would be weird.)

[Malanek]

ElitePinecone wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

So wait a second, since these polls are unscientific and as such trascurable in their results thus Bioware should just ignore them and do a prequel then, pinecone, you are agreeing Bioware asked the question either A: hoping to get the answer they wanted seeing what they wanted to do already or B: for no better reason than boredom because they knew a priori the answer did not matter

They can be handy for finding out what a hardcore segment of the fanbase thinks, I suppose. Sort of a gut check - throw out a question and filter through the responses, the same way they run review/feedback threads on the BSN. 

I don't know why Bioware runs those sort of polls, or how the "results" are treated internally (at a guess, they're used to gauge feedback about decisions that have already been made). It's when people outside Bioware try to give these polls *undue* legitimacy that it becomes a problem. Using the results is fine, as long as it's always kept in mind how limited they are, and how small + unrepresentative the pool of replies are compared to the larger fanbase. 

(Though obviously, if anyone in Bioware was actually using questions on Twitter as a substitute for market research or whatever, that would be weird.)

The results were overwhelming though. This was the poll with the highest number of votes on BSN, over 1000.

http://social.biowar...58/polls/36011/

I can understand being cautious about these polls, but do you genuinely believe given those numbers the majority of people who may play the next ME would actually prefer a prequel?

[Stakrin]

I can't see the results

[Stakrin]

[quote]crimzontearz wrote...

So wait a second, since these polls are unscientific and as such trascurable in their results thus Bioware should just ignore them and do a prequel then, pinecone, you are agreeing Bioware asked the question either A: hoping to get the answer they wanted seeing what they wanted to do already or B: for no better reason than boredom because they knew a priori the answer did not matter[/quote

your logic went over my head. If. 100 random fans are asked what they want to see, and 90 say they want a sequel, why should they make anything g except a sequel?


Now that it's been a couple days, anyone feel this is looking more or less believeable?

[Malanek]

Stakrin wrote...

I can't see the results

Can you vote? Might be something to do with polls being phased out. Side issue why was that done?

Anyway the question was."In terms of a NEW GAME, what would you like to see next for the Mass Effect Universe, after all the DLC, etc has been done for ME3?"

Sequel 64% (815 votes)
Prequel 13% (161 votes)
Spin-off 11% (135 votes)
MMO 4% (48 votes)
During events of ME1-ME3 9% (115 votes)

[ElitePinecone]

Malanek999 wrote...

The results were overwhelming though. This was the poll with the highest number of votes on BSN, over 1000.

http://social.biowar...58/polls/36011/

I can understand being cautious about these polls, but do you genuinely believe given those numbers the majority of people who may play the next ME would actually prefer a prequel?

There's quite a significant problem of self-selection bias, though. This is a good read on why that means the results (like almost every web survey and online poll) are largely useless if we're interested in the views of the wider population: http://survey.cvent....-online-surveys

(Here's a longer article on the problem of selection bias in online surveys: http://www.cbs.nl/NR...00814x10pub.pdf)

The bottom line is that we have no idea if the results are genuinely reflective of a majority of the BSN (let alone the majority of the fanbase), because every member of the target population (the fanbase) didn't have an equal chance to be selected to participate. Statistically, the only way to get a good picture of the views of a majority of the population is to randomly select participants (that is, structure the survey so that everyone has an equal likelihood of being chosen to participate). When people select themselves, it distorts the results in fairly predictable ways, and excludes segments of the population from being surveyed at all (most obviously, in this case the vast majority of Mass Effect players who aren't on the BSN). 

That poll shows that 815 people on the BSN want a sequel - it tell us basically nothing about the five million or so other Mass Effect players who aren't represented in the results. It cannot (and should not) be used, then, to argue that "the fans" or "most people" want a certain thing - we simply can't tell without running a better survey using a random sample.

People do keep using BSN polls for just that reason, though, which is probably why Bioware has decided to remove this feature from the site. 

[Stakrin]

But anyone can make an account on bsn right?

[Phoenix_Also_Rises]

Oh good gods, I leave the house for five minutes and the kids get arguing etymology and teleology. This is why you are the only message board I have yet to abandon, BSN

I, for one, think a sequel is a wonderful idea. And that a prequel is a terrible one.

And yes, Stakrin, anyone can make an account here. Posting privileges, however, are limited in certain sections, dependent on previous registration of a certain product, most commonly a game. I.e. only people who have registered a copy of ME3 can post in some ME3 - related forums.