221 réponses à ce sujet

[rekn2]

Morocco Mole wrote...

rekn2 wrote...

no more or less than anything else

All of the romance threads were above and beyond any other type of thread on this site in terms of circlejerkery. At least in mage and templar threads you can get some form of debate going. I can't say the same about any of the character threads I've looked through

i dont think ive ever seen a really good debate here. heavy handed moderation leads to people bottling stuff up and then exploding so it goes from difference of opinion to all out war, instantly.

[rekn2]

Star fury wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

Your ignoring my point. Character discussion threads can be interesting, and should be. But they cannot be interesting when they are all weird hugboxes that outright discourage any character analyzation in favor of gushing about them. Which was a major issue in the section.

Not to mention having threads that run for hundreds of pages get weird and cliquey, even when they aren't about characters.

If you want to discuss a character, make a thread in this section.

I'm not ignoring your point, you mentioned it hundred times in different threads. The main problem was Bioware moderators not doing their job, you know, moderating. Bans and deleting bad posts amazingly help to clear atmosphere.

And your claim that "romance forums are main source of toxic atmosphere" is laughable. Bioware making games worse than before like DA2 & ME3 is the reason of toxicity. There was vibrant, positive, optimistic atmosphere on BSN after DA:O and ME2, when Bioware had high standards. Oh, and actually moderated romance and character forums.  

this is true

[daveliam]

Morocco Mole wrote...

I don't see a need for character and romance discussion threads. They were by far some of the most circle jerkish, tribalistic, and just plain weird threads on BSN that are the cause of most of the toxicity that has plagued the forums. There was never any interesting discussion going on from what I've read, just "this character is great I love them *dumps fanart all over the place*" for thousands of pages and any attempts at bringing actual interesting topics up would be shouted down by other posters because it wasn't endless gushing.

If you want to discuss a character make a thread. But it doesn't need to go on for thousands of pages. If you want to post fanart or fanfiction there will likely be a fansection for that too.

Two thoughts:

1.)  If those forums existed then the posters who are so vocally against romance in the game won't have to constantly see those threads and feel compelled to enter them and argue with the people who enjoy them.

-which leads to-

2.) A big reason that those threads are so long is because so many people feel the need to go into those threads and de-rail them by arguing about what they don't want instead of taking their own advice and creating threads about the things that they do want.

Modifié par daveliam, 26 novembre 2013 - 06:59 .

[nightscrawl]

Well there should be, simply to separate topics, and also possibly avoid spoilers. This applies to any type of sub-forum. There are people here who have no interest in the follower romances, just as there are people that have no interest in involved tactics, the lore, or in mods and modding. Separating these forums allows players to easily find topics of interest to them.

I hardly ever went into the classes/builds and strategy forums for DA2, I was primarily interested in discussing the story, characters, or general gameplay matters (dialog system, etc).

Morocco Mole wrote...

I don't see a need for character and romance discussion threads. They were by far some of the most circle jerkish, tribalistic, and just plain weird threads on BSN that are the cause of most of the toxicity that has plagued the forums. There was never any interesting discussion going on from what I've read, just "this character is great I love them *dumps fanart all over the place*" for thousands of pages and any attempts at bringing actual interesting topics up would be shouted down by other posters because it wasn't endless gushing.

If you want to discuss a character make a thread. But it doesn't need to go on for thousands of pages. If you want to post fanart or fanfiction there will likely be a fansection for that too.

I agree to an extent. I hardly ever went into those threads for that reason. There would occasionally be some discussion, but it eventually got drowned out by another round of fan art, comics, or fanfic, most of which I wasn't interested in.

However, that doesn't mean that those threads shouldn't exist. Aside from the occasional troll from some other character's fandom, they provided a relative safe haven from other areas of the forum. I know this because I specifically mentioned this issue in the Fenris thread once, and I got that response. They purposely congregate there to be amongst other like-minded fans of a given character. I don't really see anything wrong with it.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 26 novembre 2013 - 07:05 .

[daveliam]

Morocco Mole wrote...

1.) If those forums existed then the posters who are so vocally against romance in the game won't have to constantly see those threads and feel compelled to enter them and argue with the people who enjoy them.

They are a negative against the entire community as a whole and are one of the reasons BSN is a laughingstock. And no matter what, people are going to troll them because the people that post in those threads are such easy targets, which leads into them being a pain to moderate.

So then it sounds to me that the problem with those threads are the trolls, who should be moderated appropriately and banned if needed, not the people who are posting in there in genuine.  Maybe I just have a different perspective, but if someone gets joy out of a "circle jerk" thread, then how is it any of my business to stop them from doing so, even if they are "easy targets"?  Let people enjoy the threads that they enjoy and do the same.  Find threads that you enjoy and enjoy them.  The idea that they are such "easy targets" that trolls are justified is silly.

[rekn2]

Morocco Mole wrote...

1.) If those forums existed then the posters who are so vocally against romance in the game won't have to constantly see those threads and feel compelled to enter them and argue with the people who enjoy them.

They are a negative against the entire community as a whole and are one of the reasons BSN is a laughingstock. And no matter what, people are going to troll them because the people that post in those threads are such easy targets, which leads into them being a pain to moderate.

how long have you been moderating for?

[daveliam]

Morocco Mole wrote...

The problem with the threads are not solely the trolls. Its the weird people that post in those threads and those threads attract. Read Dave of Canada's post

Maybe I just have a different perspective, but if someone gets joy out of a "circle jerk" thread, then how is it any of my business to stop them from doing so,

It inhibits discussion. Which is (or should be anyway) the point of the threads. Not a place for fanboys and fangirls to congregate and shout down any attempts at discussing the characters

Says who?  If there are so many fanboys/girls to have thousands of pages in a thread, then that sounds like the point of the thread is that.  If you think that there should be a discussion thread that isn't fanboy-ish, then do something and create one.  How does just complaining about them do anything?  Your comiplaining does just as much to inhibit discussion.

And I understand that there were weird people who were posting really questionable stuff about the characters as well.  Those people should be moderated as well.  However, the "they're just such easy targets that trolls just can't help themselves" argument is ridiculous.  Do something positive and create the material that you think needs to be there.

[nightscrawl]

Morocco Mole wrote...

It inhibits discussion. Which is (or should be anyway) the point of the threads. Not a place for fanboys and fangirls to congregate and shout down any attempts at discussing the characters

Fun killer.

As I recall, despite there being specific threads devoted to individual companions, there certainly were no lack of other threads where involved discussion took place, particularly concerning Anders: his right/wrong views, his "final act", whether you killed him or not, and yes, his sexuality.

[flemm]

It's the culture of "support" for specific characters/romances that really created the problem with the ME character sub-forum, I think, I guess going back quite a ways. Fans and Bioware itself probably share responsibility for this.

Basically the perception was, I guess rightly to a degree, that sheer amount of support for certain characters/romances determined quantity/quality of content in the game(s). And, after ME3, that support could provide more content/improved content in DLC.

Ultimately, that's just not a good dynamic. For discussion on the forums, certainly, and perhaps also for the community as a whole.

Creative decisions should be perceived as separate from "fan support," which should be directed, probably, to the games/characters/series/community considered as a whole.

Otherwise you get this rivalry/competition/lobbying sort of dynamic.

Modifié par flemm, 26 novembre 2013 - 07:36 .

[Star fury]

rekn2 wrote...

it was no where near as bad as people are saying

Pretty much. I've read dreaded Miranda thread expecting a pit of depravity, but it was nothing special. There were a couple of weirdos, flaming and trolling. It's just anti-romance brigade loves it's tiresome agenda.

[dreamgazer]

TK514 wrote...

Nope. BioWare learned their lesson. Easier on everyone if they leave that box of trouble unopened.

[Lebanese Dude]

I don't see an inherent problem in making threads simply for the purpose of "gushing".
The problem lies when people stop doing that and start attacking others.

[Star fury]

daveliam wrote...

How does just complaining about them do anything?  Your comiplaining does just as much to inhibit discussion.

Let them complain, their opinion against romances/romance forums is irrelevant. Bioware games always have romances and there will be romance forums.

[flemm]

Lebdood wrote...

I don't see an inherent problem in making threads simply for the purpose of "gushing".
The problem lies when people stop doing that and start attacking others.

Other than simple trolling, what happened in the ME sub-forum was something like:

-We didn't gush enough previously, so we didn't get good content/our favorite died, etc. So we feel rancor now and/or should support more now in hopes of more content/better content being made.

-Other fans are gushing/supporting more than us, we should gush/support more.

-People gushing/supporting do not want what I want for this character/romance, so I/We must change the tone of discussion for fear that changes will be made, or future content won't be to my/our liking, etc.

It's not so much the existence of such a forum that is problematic, it's the overall dynamic that was created in that particular forum over time. By fans, but not only. It's a perception issue that hopefully Bioware itself will alter for Mass Effect in the future (I'm not sure if the same perception ever really existed for DA, but I guess not as much, if at all.)

Modifié par flemm, 26 novembre 2013 - 07:50 .

[Killdren88]

After reading some post I think it might just be better that groups for specific romances and characters are made to avoid conflict for the most part. Subscribe to those group and hostilities can be avoided for the most part.

[BlueMagitek]

Probably not, but because DA changes casts every game, I imagine they wouldn't get as bad.

Hopefully. ~_~

[Lebanese Dude]

Star fury wrote...

daveliam wrote...

How does just complaining about them do anything?  Your comiplaining does just as much to inhibit discussion.

Let them complain, their opinion against romances/romance forums is irrelevant. Bioware games always have romances and there will be romance forums.

Elegantly put.

[Lebanese Dude]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Star fury wrote...


Let them complain, their opinion against romances/romance forums is irrelevant. Bioware games always have romances and there will be romance forums.

My opinion on the matter is just as valid as yours.

Of course it is. It also irrelevant, not because it is worthless mind you, but because it is actively against something that is unavoidable. As long as romance exists, there will be discussion about it. Where best to do that than the game forums itself?

Modifié par Lebdood, 26 novembre 2013 - 07:56 .

[HiroVoid]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Star fury wrote...

Pretty much. I've read dreaded Miranda thread expecting a pit of depravity, but it was nothing special. There were a couple of weirdos, flaming and trolling. It's just anti-romance brigade loves it's tiresome agenda.

It was a massive flamewar that ended with two Miranda threads that trolled each other, and then Priestly locking the forums because he was tired of it.

So does that mean we should get rid of the off-topic discussion board as well?