100 réponses à ce sujet

[wirelesstkd]

Okay - so I have a question for everyone... maybe you guys can help me understand. The premise of the question assumes that Shepard was not indoctrinated at the end, which is what most people agree on. If you believe in the indoctrination theory, you will reject the premise of my question, so this question is not for you      

At the end of the game, Shepard meets the star child and is given the famous three option. One option, Control, is what the reapers promised TIM in order to indoctrinate him. Another option, Synthesis, is what the Reapers promised Saren in order to indoctrinate him. And the third is Destroy, which is what Shepard always wanted.

But I don't understand... why doesn't Shepard, at this point, start to question whether or not he's being indoctrinated? I mean... even if he's not, he has no way to know. He's never been indoctrinated, so he doesn't know what it's like. But the star child is offering him things that were offered to his antagonists, each of whom became indoctrinated. It's like living in a dream in Inception. If he still has all of his free will and normal brain functioning, why doesn't Shepard start to think that he's indoctrinated and reject those two choices?

If you're choosing one of those two options, how does your Shepard know that he's not becoming indoctrinated?

[AlanC9]

He doesn't. He also doesn't know that choosing either of the other options means he isn't becoming indoctrinated. If Shepard rejects anything the Catalyst proposes out of hand, then the Catalyst controls Shepard's actions.

There once was an IT variant that the Catalyst wanted Shepard to choose Destroy since shooting the tube would disable the Crucible rather than destroying anything. The Catalyst makes Destroy sound like he doesn't like the option in hopes that Shepard will pick it.

Modifié par AlanC9, 26 novembre 2013 - 09:42 .

[His Name was HYR!!]

Because the writers imbued Shepard with knowledge of how indoctrination works...

... that, however, puts him/her at odds with the majority of this fanbase.

*edit* -- it's kind of like Shepard never entertaining the possibility of fighting the Reapers with conventional weapons, he just knows it's not going to work, for reasons that ought to be obvious to the player (but nonetheless have eluded many people). Similarly, Shepard would know enough of indoctrination to know it's not taking place at the end of ME3. The player, though...

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 26 novembre 2013 - 10:07 .

[SwobyJ]

The prisoners-on-Earth story, where we're hinted that they 'maybe learned how indoctrination worked', instead *didn't* work with the Reapers. They refused to.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 26 novembre 2013 - 09:16 .

[Rotward]

Shepard actually indoctrinated the starchild, which is why the starchild showed him how to fire the crucible, instead of just killing shepard on the spot. Shepard knew the starchild couldn't control him or her because he or she already controlled the starchild!

Indoctri-ception

[SwobyJ]

Anyway, to OP, it doesn't even matter. Make your choice (at least for a more personal 'MainShep') based on your morality and let things play out, either in EC or in the chance of a sequel in whatever form.

[SwobyJ]

Rotward wrote...

Shepard actually indoctrinated the starchild, which is why the starchild showed him how to fire the crucible, instead of just killing shepard on the spot. Shepard knew the starchild couldn't control him or her because he or she already controlled the starchild!

Indoctri-ception

^^^^
lol


But really, part of my beliefs about the series has some of this. That the Crucible hacked it, in some way.

[Probe Away]

OP, I think you answered your own question. There's no point in Shep trying to work out whether or not he is indoctrinated because he has no way of knowing. He's in an extremely weakened physical state and has only one chance to end the war. He's either thinking clearly and takes that chance, or he's indoctrinated and has already lost.

That's why he says "f*ck it", shoots the tube and blows the reapers away in a storm of red destruction

[Deathsaurer]

You know most people that get indoctrinated don't want to admit it right?

Then there's the this is a convoluted waste of time angle.

Modifié par Deathsaurer, 26 novembre 2013 - 09:29 .

[SwobyJ]

Deathsaurer wrote...

You know most people that get indoctrinated don't want to admit it right?

Then there's the this is a convoluted waste of time angle.

They're unable to admit it. Their minds are being rewritten, never to be the same again.

They can expose fragments of their real selves if they're powerful enough - that's it.

[Clayless]

How does Shepard not know he's becoming Indoctrinated if he chooses Destroy?

Seems like you have to jump hurdles in logic to assume Synthesis and Control is some form of trickery for Indoctrination, but "Oh but if you do this it'll totally kill us" isn't the most obvious trap ever.

Looking for traps means you assume these are the Catalyst's options, rather than the Crucibles.

[SwobyJ]

Robosexual wrote...

How does Shepard not know he's becoming Indoctrinated if he chooses Destroy?

Seems like you have to jump hurdles in logic to assume Synthesis and Control is some form of trickery for Indoctrination, but "Oh but if you do this it'll totally kill us" isn't the most obvious trap ever.

Looking for traps means you assume these are the Catalyst's options, rather than the Crucibles.

They can be both.

[wirelesstkd]

Probe Away wrote...

OP, I think you answered your own question. There's no point in Shep trying to work out whether or not he is indoctrinated because he has no way of knowing. He's in an extremely weakened physical state and has only one chance to end the war. He's either thinking clearly and takes that chance, or he's indoctrinated and has already lost.

That's why he says "f*ck it", shoots the tube and blows the reapers away in a storm of red destruction

But he's seen people fight indoctrination. TIM did it and ended up killing himself, as did Saren. Benezia was able to hold it off for full periods of time to hold lucid conversations. Wouldn't he, as a non-indoctrinated person, start to think, "maybe this is how indoctrination begins, and maybe I should fight this..." ?

[Daemul]

Robosexual wrote...

How does Shepard not know he's becoming Indoctrinated if he chooses Destroy?

Seems like you have to jump hurdles in logic to assume Synthesis and Control is some form of trickery for Indoctrination, but "Oh but if you do this it'll totally kill us" isn't the most obvious trap ever.

Looking for traps means you assume these are the Catalyst's options, rather than the Crucibles.

This.

If Control and Synthesis are some sort of trap, then so is Destroy, especially Destroy. It would be highly illogical to assume that your enemy is lying to you or trying to trick you into picking every other option except for the one that would kill his creations, its the most obvious trap, one of the oldest in the book. 

The mental gymanastics required for one to reach the conclusion that his enemy is telling the truth about being able to destroy his creations whilst at the same time lying about everything else is reminiscent of indoctrination.

Modifié par Daemul, 26 novembre 2013 - 10:15 .

[Wayning_Star]

before the mods close the thread, I'd guess that Shep wouldn't/couldn't tell that indoctrination has set in. Apparently that's a perk of indoctrination, you're oblivious to it's effect..


edit to add: Why would the catalyst need to indoctrinate Shep, in any event, why did it tell shep that the Illusive man was already "theirs", as in controlled through indoctrination. Another point being that Shep has actually withstood indoctrination several time before ever going up to see the cat, so it's apparent Shepard is impervious or
the catalyst didn't want to indoctrinate, it needs shepard?

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 26 novembre 2013 - 10:39 .

[SwobyJ]

wirelesstkd wrote...

Probe Away wrote...

OP, I think you answered your own question. There's no point in Shep trying to work out whether or not he is indoctrinated because he has no way of knowing. He's in an extremely weakened physical state and has only one chance to end the war. He's either thinking clearly and takes that chance, or he's indoctrinated and has already lost.

That's why he says "f*ck it", shoots the tube and blows the reapers away in a storm of red destruction

But he's seen people fight indoctrination. TIM did it and ended up killing himself, as did Saren. Benezia was able to hold it off for full periods of time to hold lucid conversations. Wouldn't he, as a non-indoctrinated person, start to think, "maybe this is how indoctrination begins, and maybe I should fight this..." ?

Refuse ending.

Bioware be trollin


If you mean throughout the series or ME3 - eh, I think that could just be his flaw if the general IT is true. It's not like Revan really understood he was Revan until it was revealed. *shrug* Hero hubris.

This would actually make TIM smarter than Shepard in some ways if this is what's happening. At least he 'understood' and struggled with it (to immoral ends) - Shepard has to keep his eye on the prize the whole time (Destroying the Reapers) to even stand a chance at all. It's a war he has to see himself winning, not losing in despair to.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 26 novembre 2013 - 10:28 .

[Obadiah]

It depends on what indoctrination is and how it works.

Shep has been exposed to Reapers and Reaper forces. I'm sure the idea that he is indoctrinated has crossed his mind. He doesn't really have a choice other than to make a decision based on his own thoughts - whatever they may be.

From a gameplay standpoint though, it is pretty clear when Shep is being controlled, from the Morinth encounter. Also, when Saren and TIM are indoctrinated/controlled they discover it fairly obviously in certain scenes. In the Decision Chamber, Shep never has to struggle with his own thoughts to make a decision, so indoctrination is highly unlikely.

Wouldn't it be awesome thought if Saren came to his understanding of what Sovereign wanted by some kind of encounter similar to the starkid? We really are never told how that happened.

[Excella Gionne]

IT theory threads usually get locked...

[wirelesstkd]

To be clear, this is not an IT thread... try and think about my question outside the context of IT existing

The premise of my question is that Shepard is NOT indoctrinated. But wouldn't a smart guy like Shepard assume that the options are attempts to get him to commit to indoctrination?

FWIW, I think some great points have been made that, in this scenario, Shepard would also have to assume that Destroy would be an attempt at indoctrination. I guess it comes down to accepting the star child's logic, knowing that others have been indoctrinated this way...

I suppose the logical, though not necessarily correct, choice for Shepard is to refuse...

[JonathonPR]

Because he was created with Reaper technology. His actions are fulfilling the indoctrinated goal for a very convoluted plan. Who would question his motivation.

[N7Gold]

You forget that indoctrination is very subtle. you don't realize that you're losing your ability to think for yourself, you think that what the Reapers whisper into your mind makes sense, you think your actions aren't out of the ordinary, but your friends will think so.

[wirelesstkd]

N7Gold wrote...

You forget that indoctrination is very subtle. you don't realize that you're losing your ability to think for yourself, you think that what the Reapers whisper into your mind makes sense, you think your actions aren't out of the ordinary, but your friends will think so.

That's interesting. So you're saying that because the choices are so blunt, someone like Shepard might have assumed that the star child was telling the truth, given indoctrination is known to happen slower? 

So an internal dialogue for Shepard after being told to choose might look something like this: "wait a minute, aren't these the promises the Reapers made to indoctrinate TIM and Saren? Maybe I'm being indoctrinated... no, no... my very ability to question that means that I'm not."

That's a stretch, but it's the closest thing I've got to a reasonable explanation

[Clayless]

Yeah this is looking like a stealth IT thread now.

[AlexMBrennan]

But I don't understand... why doesn't Shepard, at this point, start to question whether or not he's being indoctrinated?

I very much doubt Shepard is even capable of thought.

Where are you going with this? Logically Shepard should question the integrity of his thoughts at this point, therefore some assumption must be wrong - e.g. you might conclude that Shepard doesn't question whether he is indoctrinated because the conversation is taking part in a simulated reality where Shepard's doubts have been "disabled".

Sorry, but I'm going to pick "bad writing" over that idea every time.

[SwobyJ]

N7Gold wrote...

You forget that indoctrination is very subtle. you don't realize that you're losing your ability to think for yourself, you think that what the Reapers whisper into your mind makes sense, you think your actions aren't out of the ordinary, but your friends will think so.

Nope, not exactly. An individual undergoing indoctrination actually amplifies the 'signal' (originating from nanites rewriting the brain) to those around them. The more one spends around someone who is being indoctrinated through more cyber means (nanites, implants), the more they will side with that person and be wrapped up in their signal.
The case example is the 'Benezia <--> Saren' connection, but there's other more separate examples of such an idea happening in both organic and synthetic forms of control over minds.

If you mean 'friends that haven't seen you in a while' instead, like the 'Nihlus <--> Saren' connection, then nevermind

Modifié par SwobyJ, 27 novembre 2013 - 01:18 .