314 réponses à ce sujet

[Khevan77]

This thread has a high potential to become hostile.  I ask anyone who posts here to please be respectful, no matter which side you stand on.  I will ask, however, that if you have some issue with any suggestion or comment I make in this opening post, please take a moment and examine the reasons for your issue.  This is meant in the most polite and respectful way I can phrase it, since text neuters emotion from a message, and I don't want anyone to be unduly offended by what I'm about to say.

I urge Bioware to include as many realistic, well written homosexual characters as heterosexual characters in DA:I.  I also urge this company to include more than a token character of color, perhaps Rivaini or even another culture we haven't seen yet.  Lastly, I urge Bioware to create strong, independent female characters.  Not all need to be ball-busting feminists, but I want to see and Inquisitor who just happens to be female, rather than a "Female Inquisitor," if you get my meaning.  Any and all of the above can be mixed and matched, for example, a strong female PoC lesbian.

Bioware has a track record of including options for homosexual players, for which I commend the company.  They have also shown, through the example of a female Commander Shepard, that they can have a strong woman who doesn't fall prey to too many of the typical stereotypes and tropes we see too often in media.  People of color are underrepresented (to my admittedly faulty memory), unless you as a player create that as your avatar for the given game.

The reason that I urge these things from Bioware, is that I've seen too many comments on this site and on others, arguing against many of these things.  I am a heterosexual white male, and over the past couple of years, I've come to the conclusion that I do, indeed, enjoy a level of "white male priviledge" that I will not apologize for, but would instead like to see all people, regardless of race, gender, or sexual orientation to enjoy.  I did not choose my race or gender, or who I am inclined to love.  Neither did those who differ from me.  I cannot understand what others go through based on those characteristics, but I can try to, and I can try to do what I can to level the playing field, so to speak.

DA2 handled romances in what I feel were a clumsy manner.  I was not a particular fan of having every romance option be herosexual, and the way some of the characters react when rejected was uncomfortable, to say the least.  I, personally, would prefer one heterosexual, one bisexual, and one homosexual character of each gender, simply to have the option of having a character say "No" to my PC, but failing that, I would rather see 4 herocentric romances than what we saw in, say ME3, where a straight, male Shepard had as many as 6 romance options, and any other Shepard half that or less.

I would really, really like to see more people of color represented in game, as well, even beyond romance options.  The only companions in any Bioware game since Mass Effect 1 who were not white were Jacob and Isabela.  This is a major imbalance, in my opinion, and I would like to see DA:I right the scales, as it were.

To those who would say that the above is "pandering to a minority," I ask you this:  Why do you care?  What harm to you, personally, would come about if these suggestions were followed?  Again, I ask this in a respectful manner, since text doesn't convey emotion.  People of color, women, and homosexuals have been discriminated against for far too long in society, and gaming has the ability to reach millions of people.  If we start seeing positive examples of these "minority" groups in media, perhaps that will change.  It certainly can't hurt. 

Bioware may very well be in the final stages of character design and whatnot for DA:I.  They may very well be taking these things into account, and after all, it is their story to tell.  But if there's some room for adjustment, I simply ask that these things be considered.

I hope that this thread will not devolve into personal attacks, and instead engender some meaningful discussion on this topic.  I may be hoping for too much, but I am an eternal optimist.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

When it comes to BSN, hot button issue threads like this invariably turn out to be the opposite of "button-awesome."

[Mr.House]

Why does skin colour matter in DA?

[Angrywolves]

It's been discussed before . Nothing new.

[Khevan77]

Mr.House wrote...

Why does skin colour matter in DA?

As I said in the OP, people of color are largely unrepresented in Bioware games, and gaming in general.  Gaming is my major past-time, more than watching TV and movies.  It can potentially be a forum for showing people in a positive light.  I am highly aware that minority groups have been victimized by discrimination, and even if I can't understand what it's like to face that discrimination, I can try to argue against it.  Is gaming a minor forum (relatively speaking) to TV or movies?  That can be argued, but it can still be a medium to show people of color in a positive light, to hopefully undermine some of the institutionalized racism still inherent in society.  I speak specifically of American society, since I can't really speak of societal influences in other cultures.

[Khevan77]

Angrywolves wrote...

It's been discussed before . Nothing new.

Perhaps so, but this is a topic I consider to be important enough to keep a discussion going about.  If you disagree, you are certainly welcome to not read the thread.  That has the potential to sound antagonistic, so please accept my assurances that such was not my intent.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Who cares?

I'd rather they make a good story.

[Khevan77]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Who cares?

I'd rather they make a good story.

Are these two mutually exclusive?  Absolutely not!  Bioware has already gone the herocentric route in DA2, and while some of the romances were handled somewhat clumsily in my opinion, they've already gone there.

As far as female characters and people of color...is it really that hard to come up with a good character with those characteristics that fit the good story you're trying to tell?  Again, I say "Absolutely not!"

If it can be done, let's do it.

[Kalas Magnus]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Who cares?

I'd rather they make a good story.

thisx1000

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Not if resources are split from the story.

[Statare]

 I'm so very delighted to encounter this post on the forum. Well written, thoughtful, considerate, and open-minded.

<3

[Khevan77]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Not if resources are split from the story.

There will be romances in DA:I.  It's been that way for Bioware games from the beginning.  Mass Effect 3 and the Dragon Age series have had homosexual romances.  The budget is there for this sort of thing.  It won't come out of any resources applied to the story development.

Same for companions.  It would take just as much effort and resources to create white, male companions and npcs as it would to create female characters, or characters of color, or both.  It's all within the art budget.  Again, it won't consume resources allocated to the story development.

I honestly don't see your argument holding any water, since it's not an issue.   If it can be done with the same resources (and it can be) what's the problem?

[AresKeith]

Khevan77 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Why does skin colour matter in DA?

As I said in the OP, people of color are largely unrepresented in Bioware games, and gaming in general.  Gaming is my major past-time, more than watching TV and movies.  It can potentially be a forum for showing people in a positive light.  I am highly aware that minority groups have been victimized by discrimination, and even if I can't understand what it's like to face that discrimination, I can try to argue against it.  Is gaming a minor forum (relatively speaking) to TV or movies?  That can be argued, but it can still be a medium to show people of color in a positive light, to hopefully undermine some of the institutionalized racism still inherent in society.  I speak specifically of American society, since I can't really speak of societal influences in other cultures.

This post SMH

[Inquisitor Recon]

How about they work on making the best game possible rather than trying to appease those who look for reasons to be offended by "not enough people of X race/sexuality/gender/whatever"?

It's a game, it's shouldn't be about showing IRL minorties in a certain light. Most of us would rather not suffer such preaching.

If the writer wants to make character X of a certain race or gender or whatever, let them, but it shouldn't be for this politically correct inclusitivity holding-hands and singing kumbia nonsense. It should be based on who they want that character to be.

If the writer wants character X to be straight that should be acceptable without "outrage" from those of the same gender who want to bang them. Character writing should come first, these other reasons based on supposed real world biases shouldn't even be a concern.

[sandalisthemaker]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Not if resources are split from the story.

Only multiplayer does that, silly. 

Anyway, DIVERSITY!!!!!! YAY!!

[ObserverStatus]

Personally, think that the sexual orientations of all the character companions in Dragon Age Inquisition should be procedurally generated. Just imagine how hilarious the reactions would be if they set it up so you have to play the game for 5 hours just to find out if your favorite NPC was into your sex in the playthrough you're on? This would be worth all the inconvenience that comes with it just to see the statistics BioWare would publish on how many people restart the game then and there. You know what they say, a good compromise leaves everyone unhappy.

[Khevan77]

Inquisitor Recon wrote...

How about they work on making the best game possible rather than trying to appease those who look for reasons to be offended by "not enough people of X race/sexuality/gender/whatever"?

It's a game, it's shouldn't be about showing IRL minorties in a certain light. Most of us would rather not suffer such preaching.

If the writer wants to make character X of a certain race or gender or whatever, let them, but it shouldn't be for this politically correct inclusitivity holding-hands and singing kumbia nonsense. It should be based on who they want that character to be.

If the writer wants character X to be straight that should be acceptable without "outrage" from those of the same gender who want to bang them. Character writing should come first, these other reasons based on supposed real world biases shouldn't even be a concern.

First, I'd question your use of the phrase "look for reasons to be offended."  It's not about being offended by these things not being included.  It's about including them in the efforts of fairness.  It's also not about being preachy.  It's about simply doing the right thing, and showing diversity in a game when the efforts of doing so would be minor.  Why would it offend you if these things are simply taken into consideration when coming up with characters for the game? 

[Potato Cat]

I don't fear the lack of 'strong independent women' in DA:I, (just look at the three female characters confirmed to play major parts in the game, (you know, unless they pull a Mhairi)). And from what I've personally seen, Vivienne is a lot of people's favourite already, myself included. I'm also not particularly worried about the portrayal of homosexual characters. For the most part, it's been pretty great. Borderline stereotypes aside, Herren and Wade were among my favourite characters of DAO and quite frankly there's little I wouldn't do to see them again in DAI.

For the most part, my worry is on the portrayal of bisexual characters. DA2's herosexual romances aside, the majority of 'confirmed' bisexuals, or characters who are actively shown to be bi, are notably promiscuous, (not that I have a particular problem with those characters myself, mind) As a bisexual myself, (and a bit of a total prude), it's a stereotype I'd kind of like to get away from. I always use Anders as an example here because he has this lovely speech to a male Hawke about not shying away from someone just because the look like you when talking about Karl, but his relationship with Karl is portrayed as solely a friendship to a female Hawke. Obviously apart from maybe the whole terrorist thing, I'd love a bisexual character like Anders who isn't a sleep with anything with a pulse type, or even one with not much experience. Again, not that I'm totally opposed to it, it's just more of an 'Again? Really?'.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

As Recon said, this is a game with a plot, not some romance simulator for minorities.

[leaguer of one]

Khevan77 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Why does skin colour matter in DA?

As I said in the OP, people of color are largely unrepresented in Bioware games, and gaming in general.  Gaming is my major past-time, more than watching TV and movies.  It can potentially be a forum for showing people in a positive light.  I am highly aware that minority groups have been victimized by discrimination, and even if I can't understand what it's like to face that discrimination, I can try to argue against it.  Is gaming a minor forum (relatively speaking) to TV or movies?  That can be argued, but it can still be a medium to show people of color in a positive light, to hopefully undermine some of the institutionalized racism still inherent in society.  I speak specifically of American society, since I can't really speak of societal influences in other cultures.

You clearly have not been paying attention to bw game. Heck, Even ME broke the "No colored people in Space rule".
Also, How can you be political correct in a fantasy universe that have cultures and race development vastly different from our would.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Khevan77 wrote...

Inquisitor Recon wrote...

How about they work on making the best game possible rather than trying to appease those who look for reasons to be offended by "not enough people of X race/sexuality/gender/whatever"?

It's a game, it's shouldn't be about showing IRL minorties in a certain light. Most of us would rather not suffer such preaching.

If the writer wants to make character X of a certain race or gender or whatever, let them, but it shouldn't be for this politically correct inclusitivity holding-hands and singing kumbia nonsense. It should be based on who they want that character to be.

If the writer wants character X to be straight that should be acceptable without "outrage" from those of the same gender who want to bang them. Character writing should come first, these other reasons based on supposed real world biases shouldn't even be a concern.

First, I'd question your use of the phrase "look for reasons to be offended."  It's not about being offended by these things not being included.  It's about including them in the efforts of fairness.  It's also not about being preachy.  It's about simply doing the right thing, and showing diversity in a game when the efforts of doing so would be minor.  Why would it offend you if these things are simply taken into consideration when coming up with characters for the game? 

Fairness doesn't exist.

'Right thing' is subjective. 

Diversity takes away from unity.

It would offend me because it would tell me the writers are more interested in catering to SJW romancers than making a good game. 

And I want characters to be written and thought out well, not made gay or black for the sake of making them gay or black.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 27 novembre 2013 - 02:21 .

[JasonPogo]

Ok first you are arguing for things that Bioware already puts in ALL their games. As far as I can see they are at the forefront of everything you are asking for. But some of your demands are just silly.

"I was not a particular fan of having every romance option be herosexual, and the way some of the characters react when rejected was uncomfortable, to say the least."

How would that change if the character was 100% homosexual? Oh no Anders just hit on me and I'm a dude this is uncomfortable! Would you not feel uncomfortable if you knew he was 100% gay?

And then just to the point of character of color in Dragon Age games. You have to remember that the game takes place in what would boil down to medieval Europe in the real world. So you are not going to have a lot of diversity in that regard throughout the world. Yes you will run into the odd Isabela and such but for the most part everyone will more or les be the same since travel is not as easy as it is today.

[Enigmatick]

Inquisitor Recon wrote...


politically correct inclusitivity holding-hands and singing kumbia nonsense.

Kumbaya* You insensitive privileged mongrel.

[leaguer of one]

Khevan77 wrote...



First, I'd question your use of the phrase "look for reasons to be offended."  It's not about being offended by these things not being included.  It's about including them in the efforts of fairness.  It's also not about being preachy.  It's about simply doing the right thing, and showing diversity in a game when the efforts of doing so would be minor.  Why would it offend you if these things are simply taken into consideration when coming up with characters for the game? 

 How can you be political correct in a fantasy universe that have cultures and race development vastly different from our world?

Please explain this. Also, look at BW past games. They been very far on race.

[sandalisthemaker]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Khevan77 wrote...

Inquisitor Recon wrote...

How about they work on making the best game possible rather than trying to appease those who look for reasons to be offended by "not enough people of X race/sexuality/gender/whatever"?

It's a game, it's shouldn't be about showing IRL minorties in a certain light. Most of us would rather not suffer such preaching.

If the writer wants to make character X of a certain race or gender or whatever, let them, but it shouldn't be for this politically correct inclusitivity holding-hands and singing kumbia nonsense. It should be based on who they want that character to be.

If the writer wants character X to be straight that should be acceptable without "outrage" from those of the same gender who want to bang them. Character writing should come first, these other reasons based on supposed real world biases shouldn't even be a concern.

First, I'd question your use of the phrase "look for reasons to be offended."  It's not about being offended by these things not being included.  It's about including them in the efforts of fairness.  It's also not about being preachy.  It's about simply doing the right thing, and showing diversity in a game when the efforts of doing so would be minor.  Why would it offend you if these things are simply taken into consideration when coming up with characters for the game? 

Fairness doesn't exist.

'Right thing' is subjective. 

Diversity takes away from unity.

It would offend me because it would tell me the writers are more interested in catering to SJW romancers than making a good game. 

And I want characters to be written and thought out well, not made gay or black for the sake of making them gay or black.

YOU SURE DO LOVE YOUR MIRANDA-MANCE THOUGH.