314 réponses à ce sujet

[dragonflight288]

Red Vipress wrote....

^ Indeed. Well said.

Deinon Slayer wrote...

Endorsed. It breaks immersion when everyone you run across in the story universe is bi in a transparent attempt to cater to anyone's tastes.

Thanks guys.

[Jorji Costava]

Silfren wrote...

That's the question I would like answered: why is the idea of inclusivity and diversity so damned threatening that it inspires the same kind of vitriolic reaction again and again and again?

My completely unscientific impression is that this is a hot button issue because of the perception that games are and have been under attack from a variety of sources. When you've been told that your chosen medium is everything from being a cause of violent behavior among youngsters, to being "just for kids" or "not real art," there's a tendency to get defensive. And my guess is that this leads to a tendency to classify the "social justice warriors" with all the moralists and fuddy duddies who hate and want to take away your games.

Obviously, it would be ridiculous for me to claim that I can look into the hearts and minds of anyone who resists the idea of inclusiveness and claim that this is their reason, but if we're looking at a general trend, I would guess that the defensiveness about games ((which on some level I think we all have; pretty much why everyone around these parts didn't care for Ebert) plays at least some role.

[leaguer of one]

Ryzaki wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Denion Slayerwrote...

Endorsed. It breaks immersion when everyone you run across in the story
universe is bi in a transparent attempt to cater to anyone's tastes.

*looks at avatar*

*laughs and laughs and laughs*

You know what I'm saying. Everyone in ME except Kaidan and Chobot have limitations in regards to who they'll romance. As I understand it, everyone in DA2 is bi.

Tali and Garrus are romance options in a transparent attempt to cater to some people's tastes is my point. It's as much fanservice as everyone being bi. Only it's fanservice for you so apparently that makes it more acceptable.

Also no everyone in DA2 is not bi. I wish to god people would stop saying that as if they know wtf they're talking about.

But they are bi. Isaballa clearly.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

TheRedVipress wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

I think what DA could really use is more representation of those who do not necessarily identify with beings of a humanoid nature.



These would make better squadmates btw. At least they'd have a reason to not act like sentient humans and more cartoony caricatures.

There are things you should not even joke about.
The human mind can contain only so much horror before it breaks down.

There's your problem, human minds.

Just imagine if we have to fight flemeth and she shows us her true from.



Instant-waifu for all of the bsn. And when I say all, I mean every poster, even the women.

[thats1evildude]

Speaking as an outside observer to the whole Mass Effect franchise, I would say Jacob's problem is that he was basically The Hero archetype in a series that already had a main character with Shepard. He's not a bad character; he's just not suited to the supporting cast.

[wolfhowwl]

CrustyBot wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

I think what DA could really use is more representation of those who do not necessarily identify with beings of a humanoid nature.



These would make better squadmates btw. At least they'd have a reason to not act like sentient humans and more cartoony caricatures.

Sweet Celestia of Equestria, Recon is a pony sympathizer!

Modifié par wolfhowwl, 27 novembre 2013 - 06:10 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Ryzaki wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Denion Slayerwrote...

Endorsed. It breaks immersion when everyone you run across in the story
universe is bi in a transparent attempt to cater to anyone's tastes.

*looks at avatar*

*laughs and laughs and laughs*

Yeah, yeah, mea culpa. :innocent:

You know what I'm saying. Everyone in ME except Kaidan and Chobot have limitations in regards to who they'll romance. As I understand it, everyone in DA2 is bi.

Tali and Garrus are romance options in a transparent attempt to cater to some people's tastes is my point. It's as much fanservice as everyone being bi. Only it's fanservice for you so apparently that makes it more acceptable.

You're free to see it that way if you wish - I first got into the series in ME2 so I didn't know any different. DA2 takes it an order of magnitude further, though - it limits the kind of characters one can write when the entire cast has to be "made available" to anyone and everyone; when orientation derives from factors outside of characterization, the former steers the latter.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

Ryzaki wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Denion Slayerwrote...

Endorsed. It breaks immersion when everyone you run across in the story
universe is bi in a transparent attempt to cater to anyone's tastes.

*looks at avatar*

*laughs and laughs and laughs*

You know what I'm saying. Everyone in ME except Kaidan and Chobot have limitations in regards to who they'll romance. As I understand it, everyone in DA2 is bi.

Tali and Garrus are romance options in a transparent attempt to cater to some people's tastes is my point. It's as much fanservice as everyone being bi. Only it's fanservice for you so apparently that makes it more acceptable.

Also no everyone in DA2 is not bi. I wish to god people would stop saying that as if they know wtf they're talking about.

YOU CANNOT DENY GARRUS's TRUE LOVE.



Their babies shall rule over the next generation, as father and bride.

[Silfren]

In Exile wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Why does making the best game possible, telling the best story possible, have to come at the expense of excluding minorities? Why does telling the best story, making the best game, have to involve defaulting to the same method of focusing on heteronormative white people yet again?

What I want to understand is how does what a character looks like connect with the story at all. It's not as if people would rail against the absurdity of the percetange of characters that gave blonde vs. brown vs. black hair, or blue vs. green vs. brown eyes as someone dilluting the story.

I'm trying to figure that one out myself.  If, say, in DA2, there had been a reference to Meredith having a woman as her lover, her story wouldn't have been any different.  If Meredith had been a black woman, her story wouldn't have been any different.  If Cullen had been a black man, or a gay woman, their role in the story wouldn't have been any different.  If you had taken a large handful of characters, major and minor, from either game, and randomly changed their skin color to obviously indicate them as black, or Latino, or Middle-Eastern, or had included some minor mention that indicated them as definitively not exclusively heterosexual...then the story would have been EXACTLY THE SAME.  

Modifié par Silfren, 27 novembre 2013 - 06:12 .

[Ryzaki]

almostinsane99 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Denion Slayerwrote...

Endorsed. It breaks immersion when everyone you run across in the story
universe is bi in a transparent attempt to cater to anyone's tastes.

*looks at avatar*

*laughs and laughs and laughs*

????

The devs are on record pretty much admitting Tali and Garrus are only romances because the fans wanted them to be. They said something about not seeing what's so attractive about chicken feet  SO it amuses me to no end when Tali/Garrus mancers cry about fanservice LIs. Talk about hypocrisy of the highest order.

DeinonSlayer wrote...
You're free to see it that way if you wish - I first got into the series in ME2 so I didn't know any different. DA2 takes it an order of magnitude further, though - itlimits the kind of characters one can write when the entire cast has to
be "made available" to anyone and everyone; when orientation derives from factors outside of characterization, the former steers the latter.

That really doesn't make it any less fanservice. Also where the hell are you getting the bolded from? How were the characters in DA2 limited because of their sexuality?

Also neither Garrus nor Tali showed any attraction WHATSOEVER towards humans in ME1. According to you their characters were limited and twisted for their romances to occur. I suppose you should stop romancing Tali. She's been twisted to accomdate the Shepard romance.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 novembre 2013 - 06:15 .

[leaguer of one]

Silfren wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Inquisitor Recon wrote...

How about they work on making the best game possible rather than trying to appease those who look for reasons to be offended by "not enough people of X race/sexuality/gender/whatever"?

Why does making the best game possible, telling the best story possible, have to come at the expense of excluding minorities? 

Dear lord, what make you think thedus has the same Human development our world does or even have the same issues? The point is not to force it in. Thedus is not a mirror of our world. It not like human of thedes is not show to have ethnic variety.

I don't think you've thought your own argument through. 

Yes, I have. Why would a fantasy world have the same minorites we do or ecthnic issues? Why should it cater to our worlds? I'm for having it be similar to what we have if it makes sense. If not then why force it. It would be like putting African people in Jade empire.

[Steelcan]

Silfren wrote...

I'm trying to figure that one out myself.  If, say, in DA2, there had been a reference to Meredith having a woman as her lover, her story wouldn't have been any different.  If Meredith had been a black woman, her story wouldn't have been any different.  If Cullen had been a black man, or a gay woman, their role in the story wouldn't have been any different.  If you had taken a large handful of characters, major and minor, from either game, and randomly changed their skin color to obviously indicate them as black, or Latino, or Middle-Eastern, or had included some minor mention that indicated them as definitively not exclusively heterosexual...then the story would have been EXACTLY THE SAME.  

In which case the characters are only made "diverse" to filla quota and win brownie points for appearing diverse which doesn't strike me as particularly worthwhile.

[dragonflight288]

Silfren wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Why does making the best game possible, telling the best story possible, have to come at the expense of excluding minorities? Why does telling the best story, making the best game, have to involve defaulting to the same method of focusing on heteronormative white people yet again?

What I want to understand is how does what a character looks like connect with the story at all. It's not as if people would rail against the absurdity of the percetange of characters that gave blonde vs. brown vs. black hair, or blue vs. green vs. brown eyes as someone dilluting the story.

I'm trying to figure that one out myself.  If, say, in DA2, there had been a reference to Meredith having a woman as her lover, her story wouldn't have been any different.  If Meredith had been a black woman, her story wouldn't have been any different.  If Cullen had been a black man, or a gay woman, their role in the story wouldn't have been any different.  If you had taken a large handful of characters, major and minor, from either game, and randomly changed their skin color to obviously indicate them as black, or Latino, or Middle-Eastern, or had included some minor mention that indicated them as definitively not exclusively heterosexual...then the story would have been EXACTLY THE SAME.  

But would the SETTING be the same? Ferelden is largely based off of medieval England. Orlais is obviously based off of France. The Free-Marches appear to resemble ancient Greece with their city-states. Antiva seems to be based off of Spain, based on the spanish-like accents all Antivans have had.

I don't know what the etho-populations of those areas are, but we seem to be playing in largely in geo-centric regions.

Say we ended up in a huge cross-roads of business, then by all means include ethnicities of all kinds. That would be cool. Hear rumors of countries we've never visited, hear about countries outside the continent of Thedas (the Qunari are new-comers as well, so there may be other races out there as well.)

[The Flying Grey Warden]

Silfren wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Why does making the best game possible, telling the best story possible, have to come at the expense of excluding minorities? Why does telling the best story, making the best game, have to involve defaulting to the same method of focusing on heteronormative white people yet again?

What I want to understand is how does what a character looks like connect with the story at all. It's not as if people would rail against the absurdity of the percetange of characters that gave blonde vs. brown vs. black hair, or blue vs. green vs. brown eyes as someone dilluting the story.

I'm trying to figure that one out myself.  If, say, in DA2, there had been a reference to Meredith having a woman as her lover, her story wouldn't have been any different.  If Meredith had been a black woman, her story wouldn't have been any different.  If Cullen had been a black man, or a gay woman, their role in the story wouldn't have been any different.  If you had taken a large handful of characters, major and minor, from either game, and randomly changed their skin color to obviously indicate them as black, or Latino, or Middle-Eastern, or had included some minor mention that indicated them as definitively not exclusively heterosexual...then the story would have been EXACTLY THE SAME.  

LIES! It kills the greatest love story never told! A felony onto itself!

[Ryzaki]

leaguer of one wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Denion Slayerwrote...

Endorsed. It breaks immersion when everyone you run across in the story
universe is bi in a transparent attempt to cater to anyone's tastes.

*looks at avatar*

*laughs and laughs and laughs*

You know what I'm saying. Everyone in ME except Kaidan and Chobot have limitations in regards to who they'll romance. As I understand it, everyone in DA2 is bi.

Tali and Garrus are romance options in a transparent attempt to cater to some people's tastes is my point. It's as much fanservice as everyone being bi. Only it's fanservice for you so apparently that makes it more acceptable.

Also no everyone in DA2 is not bi. I wish to god people would stop saying that as if they know wtf they're talking about.

But they are bi. Isaballa clearly.

Isabela, Fenris, Anders and Merrill are not everyone in DA2.

what's so difficult to understand about that? Shepard has more people after his/her junk than Hawke does. But since Hawke has people of both genders after his/her junk it suddenly becomes a massive issue.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

leaguer of one wrote...

Silfren wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Inquisitor Recon wrote...

How about they work on making the best game possible rather than trying to appease those who look for reasons to be offended by "not enough people of X race/sexuality/gender/whatever"?

Why does making the best game possible, telling the best story possible, have to come at the expense of excluding minorities? 

Dear lord, what make you think thedus has the same Human development our world does or even have the same issues? The point is not to force it in. Thedus is not a mirror of our world. It not like human of thedes is not show to have ethnic variety.

I don't think you've thought your own argument through. 

Yes, I have. Why would a fantasy world have the same minorites we do or ecthnic issues? Why should it cater to our worlds? I'm for having it be similar to what we have if it makes sense. If not then why force it. It would be like putting African people in Jade empire.

This characters exsistence already demonstrates the same point! A foreigner in that game is not unprecidented!

[leaguer of one]

Ryzaki wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Denion Slayerwrote...

Endorsed. It breaks immersion when everyone you run across in the story
universe is bi in a transparent attempt to cater to anyone's tastes.

*looks at avatar*

*laughs and laughs and laughs*

You know what I'm saying. Everyone in ME except Kaidan and Chobot have limitations in regards to who they'll romance. As I understand it, everyone in DA2 is bi.

Tali and Garrus are romance options in a transparent attempt to cater to some people's tastes is my point. It's as much fanservice as everyone being bi. Only it's fanservice for you so apparently that makes it more acceptable.

Also no everyone in DA2 is not bi. I wish to god people would stop saying that as if they know wtf they're talking about.

But they are bi. Isaballa clearly.

Isabela, Fenris, Anders and Merrill are not everyone in DA2.

what's so difficult to understand about that? Shepard has more people after his/her junk than Hawke does. But since Hawke has people of both genders after his/her junk it suddenly becomes a massive issue.

... For some people. As for Thedus as a whole.....The people of that world really don't care.

[wolfhowwl]

Ryzaki wrote...

almostinsane99 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Denion Slayerwrote...

Endorsed. It breaks immersion when everyone you run across in the story
universe is bi in a transparent attempt to cater to anyone's tastes.

*looks at avatar*

*laughs and laughs and laughs*

????

The devs are on record pretty much admitting Tali and Garrus are only romances because the fans wanted them to be. They said something about not seeing what's so attractive about chicken feet  SO it amuses me to no end when Tali/Garrus mancers cry about fanservice LIs. Talk about hypocrisy of the highest order.

DeinonSlayer wrote...
You're free to see it that way if you wish - I first got into the series in ME2 so I didn't know any different. DA2 takes it an order of magnitude further, though - itlimits the kind of characters one can write when the entire cast has to
be "made available" to anyone and everyone; when orientation derives from factors outside of characterization, the former steers the latter.

That really doesn't make it any less fanservice. Also where the hell are you getting the bolded from? How were the characters in DA2 limited because of their sexuality?

Also neither Garrus nor Tali showed any attraction WHATSOEVER towards humans in ME1. According to you their characters were limited and twisted for their romances to occur. I suppose you should stop romancing Tali. She's been twisted to accomdate the Shepard romance.

Good points. The lore was probably twisted as well. It is hilarious that we're told Quarians have such problematic immune systems that they have to wear suits all the time but then in ME2 Tali can have sex with an alien before a critical mission with no ill effects just by taking an herbal supplement, LOL!

Modifié par wolfhowwl, 27 novembre 2013 - 06:20 .

[Steelcan]

Ryzaki wrote...

Isabela, Fenris, Anders and Merrill are not everyone in DA2.

what's so difficult to understand about that? Shepard has more people after his/her junk than Hawke does. But since Hawke has people of both genders after his/her junk it suddenly becomes a massive issue.

I don't know about everyone else but I appreciate characters being more realistic.  People have preferences in real life.  Can you imagine in ME3 Traynor being established as a lesbian but being player sexual in game so male Shepards can take a swing and not strike out?

Its equal and fair, but its at the expense of characterization.

Christ now I'm starting to sound like a certain someone.

[leaguer of one]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Silfren wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Inquisitor Recon wrote...

How about they work on making the best game possible rather than trying to appease those who look for reasons to be offended by "not enough people of X race/sexuality/gender/whatever"?

Why does making the best game possible, telling the best story possible, have to come at the expense of excluding minorities? 

Dear lord, what make you think thedus has the same Human development our world does or even have the same issues? The point is not to force it in. Thedus is not a mirror of our world. It not like human of thedes is not show to have ethnic variety.

I don't think you've thought your own argument through. 

Yes, I have. Why would a fantasy world have the same minorites we do or ecthnic issues? Why should it cater to our worlds? I'm for having it be similar to what we have if it makes sense. If not then why force it. It would be like putting African people in Jade empire.

This characters exsistence already demonstrates the same point! A foreigner in that game is not unprecidented!

Clearly he looks african....

[The Flying Grey Warden]

leaguer of one wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Silfren wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Inquisitor Recon wrote...

How about they work on making the best game possible rather than trying to appease those who look for reasons to be offended by "not enough people of X race/sexuality/gender/whatever"?

Why does making the best game possible, telling the best story possible, have to come at the expense of excluding minorities? 

Dear lord, what make you think thedus has the same Human development our world does or even have the same issues? The point is not to force it in. Thedus is not a mirror of our world. It not like human of thedes is not show to have ethnic variety.

I don't think you've thought your own argument through. 

Yes, I have. Why would a fantasy world have the same minorites we do or ecthnic issues? Why should it cater to our worlds? I'm for having it be similar to what we have if it makes sense. If not then why force it. It would be like putting African people in Jade empire.

This characters exsistence already demonstrates the same point! A foreigner in that game is not unprecidented!

Clearly he looks african....

Racist mother ****ers ain't know nothing about south africans. A pox on your house, un-friend.

[Silfren]

Filament wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

And I have yet to meet a single person who has studied English be able to pin-point exactly what American Standard truly is.

Keith David. Now we all know.

Can we have Keith David in DA:I please?

[dragonflight288]

Sir Roderick Ponce Von Fontlebottom the Magnificent Buzzard is clearly English in the game, however. He has an English accent. He talks about Queen and Country, and so on.

He has Mirabelle though, so that's a point in his favor.

[DeinonSlayer]

Ryzaki wrote...

That really doesn't make it any less fanservice. Also where the hell are you getting the bolded from? How were the characters in DA2 limited because of their sexuality?

As I've mentioned before, I haven't played DA2. If I'm mistaken in my understanding that all companions are romanceable by either gender regardless of an invariably-human protagonist, I apologize, but consider this:

With the requirement of player-sexuality, you can't write a Dalish companion who seeks to keep their bloodline "pure Elvhen," for example. You can picture the kind of upbringing such a character would have, their perspective - seeing themselves as being tasked with keeping their lore and traditions intact, and being serious about that duty, even if it means leaving their clan to combat a greater threat. You could agree or disagree with such characters (even get into massive fights with them if you disagree with their worldview enough). You could only romance them if you fit their criteria. But if companions have to be available for romance by humans, elves, dwarves (qunari?), male and female, indiscriminately, you can see how it would put a damper on such concepts.

The effort to be open-minded on concepts of sexuality can be just as limiting in terms of what characters are even possible as taking the opposite path. Not stated with intent to offend, it seems you were getting worked up over this, it's simply an observation. I don't have a problem with gay or bi characters; I have a problem with every character being bi.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 27 novembre 2013 - 06:28 .

[AresKeith]

Steelcan wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Isabela, Fenris, Anders and Merrill are not everyone in DA2.

what's so difficult to understand about that? Shepard has more people after his/her junk than Hawke does. But since Hawke has people of both genders after his/her junk it suddenly becomes a massive issue.

I don't know about everyone else but I appreciate characters being more realistic.  People have preferences in real life.  Can you imagine in ME3 Traynor being established as a lesbian but being player sexual in game so male Shepards can take a swing and not strike out?

Its equal and fair, but its at the expense of characterization.

Christ now I'm starting to sound like a certain someone.

Least yours sound legit than that certain someone lol