314 réponses à ce sujet

[Statare]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I never said it was. Don't strawman my argument.

Yet you will do the same.

Ignoratio elenchi fallacy. You're missing the point of what I'm saying.

This isn't 'U.N.: The Game'.

This is Dragon Age Inquisition. I'd rather they focus completely on the story and characters that would be relevant to the story and have a strong purpose in the story that ties into the lore and history of Dragon Age. 

And what about the lore says it can't have diverse characters? You're missing the point of what I'm saying if you think that I am saying they write a story about racial relationships in 21st century Earth. I am saying that including more races than white humans and more non-straight characters would do nothing to negatively impair the story. If anything it would make the story more engaging for more people. A lot of non-white of not-straight people are turned off by a story that seems set is some white, straight fantasy world with poorly written white girls, and white, under-wear model heroes with blue eyes.

The point of this game isn't to make you feel included. If you're insecure enough about whoever you are to want to have a game have a significant portion of the characters focus on their own preferences and differences, then you probably need to go out and find other people and network and get some self-esteem.

This takes away from the impact that said characters can have on the game. As I've said, I'd rather they stick with writing characters to have a role in the story because they're a mage, templar, elf, dwarf, qun, etc, than because they're black, white, gay, straight, female, bi, transgender, etc.

I don't get where you feel you can make any comment on who I am, personally. So, I already am questioning your judgments and wondering why I am responding to you.

A character who is not-white or not-straight can have an impact on the game equal to anyother character. The fact that you assume that their race or orientation would be limiting says more about your prejudices than anything substantial. the point of a game is also not to make striaght white people think they are more represented  than is accurate or deserve such over-representation

A good story doesn't define itself  based on the racial differences and sexual preferences of its characters either.

Kind of the whole point. So why is it a big deal if there are more of these characters other than some people think it is normal/acceptable to under-represent other people.

Modifié par Statare, 27 novembre 2013 - 02:56 .

[sandalisthemaker]

leaguer of one wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Agreed, then there should be gays and bisexuals, and powerful women, and no one should bat an eye because that's how it is in Thedas.

That's how it already is. If the op just played da, they would see it's already like that. We have a church hierarchy made of woman who use there power and another religion that's religious hierarchy also made of women. Many culture were woman fight and take the lead in war. Even the person who had the most power in Kirkwall was Female and a fighter. We have the silent sisters. We have the mc and other character who can be gay or bi and no one bats an eye except one very druch dwarf. We have racial and social issues left and right the struggle to balance them out.

It's all already there.

Part of the OP's gripe is fan reaction.  
And just look as some of these posts.

Most of the post are just people telling the op that all that they want is already being used in the games and it should not be forced just because.

It isn't forced.
It's included because BioWare wants it in their games.

[Afro_Explosion]

Why should dragon age have just white people, africans were in the roman empire, then there are the moors,basically people werent as homogenous as we think.

[leaguer of one]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Agreed, then there should be gays and bisexuals, and powerful women, and no one should bat an eye because that's how it is in Thedas.

That's how it already is. If the op just played da, they would see it's already like that. We have a church hierarchy made of woman who use there power and another religion that's religious hierarchy also made of women. Many culture were woman fight and take the lead in war. Even the person who had the most power in Kirkwall was Female and a fighter. We have the silent sisters. We have the mc and other character who can be gay or bi and no one bats an eye except one very druch dwarf. We have racial and social issues left and right the struggle to balance them out.

It's all already there.

Part of the OP's gripe is fan reaction.  
And just look as some of these posts.

Most of the post are just people telling the op that all that they want is already being used in the games and it should not be forced just because.

It isn't forced.
It's included because BioWare wants it in their games.

Excatly. Which means this topic is still pointless.

[Chernaya]

I agree with the OP but I think BioWare is already pretty good at making sure this stuff is included (at least more so than most other games). There's always room for improvement, but one of the main reasons I ended up loving their games was the fact that it wasn't blatantly obvious the entire thing was pandering to one type of person. (Aside from ME3 female Shepard relationship options... grr.)

[ParkBom]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I don't think every woman should be powerful, or strong and independent. Don't get me wrong, they're my dream women, but that's what makes them extraordinary. I like extraordinary women. They're a cut above everyone else. That what makes them so appealing. And it takes away from their credibility when every last one of them is made like that.

Sure, women are individuals just like men. Not all men are powerful leader types, and neither are all women, but there should be some. And there are already plenty in Thedas, and there will be more. This is good.

There's a quote that I've seen on tumblr that starts off like "Don't write strong women..."

then it continues onto something like "Write interesting women. Write women who have no fear. Write women who cry n a corner. Write women who rant. Write women who don't need a man. Write women who..." etc etc etc

I wish I could find the photoset now but yeah, strong should not take precedence over interesting in any character's development, imo, even women.

[sandalisthemaker]

leaguer of one wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...


Most of the post are just people telling the op that all that they want is already being used in the games and it should not be forced just because.

It isn't forced.
It's included because BioWare wants it in their games.

Excatly. Which means this topic is still pointless.

OP acknowledges that Bioware is already inclusive. The topic still has relevance because OP questions the negative reactions that such inclusivity brings out among some fans.  Such as many who have posted here.

Modifié par sandalisthemaker, 27 novembre 2013 - 03:01 .

[Khayness]

I wonder what the next hot topic will be for gaming, this overzealous PC crusading is getting really tiresome.

What could have been said, has been said a thousand times regarding this topic, seriously. Developing a game is slow work, maybe if the next batch of games came out and still offends everyone, then we can pick this up again.

Modifié par Khayness, 27 novembre 2013 - 03:01 .

[leaguer of one]

mx_keep13 wrote...

Why should dragon age have just white people, africans were in the roman empire, then there are the moors,basically people werent as homogenous as we think.

Think about itthis way. Not all world develop life that same way and intelligent life don't all have the same social issues as we do. What say that Thedus has deveople human equal to "Africans" and if they did, what would ensure those people will have the same issue we have in our world. Added, we already have massive diversity in thedus already with qunari , elves,dwarfs and human. And with human was already have even more diversity with the revanie.

You have to consider the fact the Thedus is different then our world.

[Br3admax]

Lightskinned jokes are the worst kind of jokes.

As to the OP, I'm completely fine with them adding gay characters. However, for me, I find adding characters because they are a certain way and for nothing else is much more insulting than not including them at all. When I describe a character, I don't want the only thing that jogs someone's memory to be, "The gay one." Or "the black one."

[Afro_Explosion]

leaguer of one wrote...

mx_keep13 wrote...

Why should dragon age have just white people, africans were in the roman empire, then there are the moors,basically people werent as homogenous as we think.

Think about itthis way. Not all world develop life that same way and intelligent life don't all have the same social issues as we do. What say that Thedus has deveople human equal to "Africans" and if they did, what would ensure those people will have the same issue we have in our world. Added, we already have massive diversity in thedus already with qunari , elves,dwarfs and human. And with human was already have even more diversity with the revanie.

You have to consider the fact the Thedus is different then our world.

but humans still should come in different colors than white, peachy white, and egg white

[leaguer of one]

mx_keep13 wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

mx_keep13 wrote...

Why should dragon age have just white people, africans were in the roman empire, then there are the moors,basically people werent as homogenous as we think.

Think about itthis way. Not all world develop life that same way and intelligent life don't all have the same social issues as we do. What say that Thedus has deveople human equal to "Africans" and if they did, what would ensure those people will have the same issue we have in our world. Added, we already have massive diversity in thedus already with qunari , elves,dwarfs and human. And with human was already have even more diversity with the revanie.

You have to consider the fact the Thedus is different then our world.

but humans still should come in different colors than white, peachy white, and egg white

....Which is why I pointed out Revani(Isabela, Duncan, Vivianne.) Even then the social and genetic issue don't and have no garantee to be the same as our world. Thedus is different from our world. Deversity is already an issue the plot is taking on, why does it have to mirror our issues just because?

[leaguer of one]

Imanol de Tafalla wrote...

I wish my ethnicity were better represented in video games. All we got was Lt. Zabaleta in ME1, but even then, his American/Canadian accent did not suggest an upbringing in the old land.

Anderson is a black guy born and raised in London with an american accent. Ashley we still don't know what ethnicity she even is. ME point that it's all going to be one to the point we see no difference.

[sandalisthemaker]

leaguer of one wrote...

mx_keep13 wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

mx_keep13 wrote...

Why should dragon age have just white people, africans were in the roman empire, then there are the moors,basically people werent as homogenous as we think.

Think about itthis way. Not all world develop life that same way and intelligent life don't all have the same social issues as we do. What say that Thedus has deveople human equal to "Africans" and if they did, what would ensure those people will have the same issue we have in our world. Added, we already have massive diversity in thedus already with qunari , elves,dwarfs and human. And with human was already have even more diversity with the revanie.

You have to consider the fact the Thedus is different then our world.

but humans still should come in different colors than white, peachy white, and egg white

....Which is why I pointed out Revani(Isabela, Duncan, Vivianne.) Even then the social and genetic issue don't and have no garantee to be the same as our world. Thedus is different from our world. Deversity is already an issue the plot is taking on, why does it have to mirror our issues just because?

Thedas is a mirror of our world.
Its social, political, and historical events mirror our world.
Elven, Dwarven, and Qunari cultures are a mash up of current and past real life cultures.

Modifié par sandalisthemaker, 27 novembre 2013 - 03:29 .

[durasteel]

leaguer of one wrote...
That's how it already is. If the op just played da, they would see it's already like that. We have a church hierarchy made of woman who use there power and another religion that's religious hierarchy also made of women. Many culture were woman fight and take the lead in war. Even the person who had the most power in Kirkwall was Female and a fighter. We have the silent sisters. We have the mc and other character who can be gay or bi and no one bats an eye except one very druch dwarf. We have racial and social issues left and right the struggle to balance them out.

It's all already there.

Don't forget Isabela.

One of the ways I evaluate "strong female characters" is to imagine the character as a guy. A male Isabela is Han Solo or Jack Sparrow, and she was one of my favorites in DA2 regardless of whether she was romanced.

Modifié par durasteel, 27 novembre 2013 - 03:34 .

[leaguer of one]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

mx_keep13 wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

mx_keep13 wrote...

Why should dragon age have just white people, africans were in the roman empire, then there are the moors,basically people werent as homogenous as we think.

Think about itthis way. Not all world develop life that same way and intelligent life don't all have the same social issues as we do. What say that Thedus has deveople human equal to "Africans" and if they did, what would ensure those people will have the same issue we have in our world. Added, we already have massive diversity in thedus already with qunari , elves,dwarfs and human. And with human was already have even more diversity with the revanie.

You have to consider the fact the Thedus is different then our world.

but humans still should come in different colors than white, peachy white, and egg white

....Which is why I pointed out Revani(Isabela, Duncan, Vivianne.) Even then the social and genetic issue don't and have no garantee to be the same as our world. Thedus is different from our world. Deversity is already an issue the plot is taking on, why does it have to mirror our issues just because?

Thedas is a mirror of our world.
Its social, political, and historical events mirror our world.
Elven, Dwarven, and Qunari cultures are a mash up of current and past real life cultures.

No it does not. It paradies our world not mirrors it. It has some simularity but it does not mirror our world. It just has some flavors of our world but it clearly is not the same taste or even food.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Statare wrote...
Yet you will do the same.

Because the gist of your entire argument is: 'I want people who are gay and black so I can feel good about being represented in a game.'

I never said anything pro-white, pro-straight, or anti-minority.

I said to not make the story an asspull of kumbaya singing children of all races and creeds for the sake of making it like that just to please SJW's who are upset because not every minority is represented in a story that isn't about representing minorites.

And what about the lore says it can't have diverse characters? You're missing the point of what I'm saying if you think that I am saying they write a story about racial relationships in 21st century Earth. I am saying that including more races than white humans and more non-straight characters would do nothing to negatively impair the story. If anything it would make the story more engaging for more people. A lot of non-white of not-straight people are turned off by a story that seems set is some white, straight fantasy world with poorly written white girls, and white, under-wear model heroes with blue eyes.

Nothing. 

But I'd rather they be diverse individuals because of what's on the inside, not on what's on the outside. Not because they're gay or black or female.

As is being suggested here, the writers would basically be going out of their way to make 50% of Thedas homosexual for the sake of equality. He's not asking for a good story. He's asking for what I've been saying is a bad thing: Adding things for the sake of adding things. He's asking to be pandered to. He's asking for special treatment.

The story shouldn't be engaging to people because there are gay characters or black characters in it. It should be engaging because its a good story. A story isn't defined by whether or not Bob is gay or whether or not Tony is black (unless that is the point of said story). If you, or others, are playing this game for those reasons, then you're going to be disappointed. This story isn't about you and your sexuality or anyone else's.

I don't get where you feel you can make any comment on who I am, personally. So, I already am questioning your judgments and wondering why I am responding to you.

A character who is not-white or not-straight can have an impact on the game equal to anyother character. The fact that you assume that their race or orientation would be limiting says more about your prejudices than anything substantial. the point of a game is also not to make striaght white people think they are more represented  than is accurate or deserve such over-representation

I'm not making a judgement on who you are. I'm saying that if you are the kind of person that I described, then you probably need to learn that its not about you. It's not about me. It's about what is best for the story. And having gay or black or female characters in a story does not automatically make it better or more engaging, nor does the lack of them automatically make it any worse or less engaging.

That's not my argument. I never made that argument. Stop strawmanning my argument. The fact that you're going out of your way to villify me because I don't believe in pandering to minorities in a video game who's is not meant to pander to minorities tells me that you're more interested in getting attention and special treatment than anything else. Enough so that when someone says that the game is not about those preferences, you label them as a homophobic, misogynistic, white supremacist.

Kind of the whole point. So why is it a big deal if there are more of these characters other than some people think it is normal/acceptable to under-represent other people.

Because they're being put in the game not for the sake of the story, but for the sake of having them because diversity. You're asking to be pandered to. You're asking for special treatment.

All I'm going to say is that I don't care if you're black or white or gay or straight or bi or whatever. Get back in line with the rest of us.

[efd731]

I believe that a bioware game is the last place someone should have complaints about sexual preferences, and as for women of colour, origins was set in (essentiall feudal Britain) fereldan. White as all hell. DA2 could've branched out, and that would've been fairly cool to see. However it isn't bioware's job to cater to our every whim, their only real job is to make a quality game that makes money. Shoehorning in a character for diversity's sake.....is just as bad as disliking a diverse character because they aren't heteronormative.

[Medhia Nox]

@massivelyeffective0730: The fact that you used "pandering to minorities" is vilifying enough friend.

[Ryzaki]

You know...I'm growing tired of the "how dare you want X in the game just because! They should only be in there for story reasons!"

Really? We can't have a diverse cast just because? There MUST be so specific storyline reason for a diverse cast?

What's the justification for the generic white cast then? They're allowed to be in the game without being accused of fanservice or pandering to select groups. Is it because that's seen by many as the "default"? Why does any other group need to justify itself to be in the game wheres that group doesn't?

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 novembre 2013 - 03:46 .

[sandalisthemaker]

leaguer of one wrote...

No it does not. It paradies our world not mirrors it. It has some simularity but it does not mirror our world. It just has some flavors of our world but it clearly is not the same taste or even food.

Meh. it may not be an exact replica, true. But it does borrow heavily from real world issues and society, as does most fantasy. The inclusion of more modern and progressive real life cultural ideas should not be surprising.

[Ryzaki]

J. Reezy wrote...

DA:I really does need more dark-skinned characters because reasons.

DAI needs more dark skinned characters because then the devs might have to make dark skin tones look decent instead of the weird shades of tan and blotchy dark skin we got in earlier titles.

Tired of trying to make a black female then going "Nope" cause her skin looks off. <_<

I could do so in SWTOR and KOTOR thankfully but in DA games? Nope.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 novembre 2013 - 03:48 .