314 réponses à ce sujet

[AresKeith]

leaguer of one wrote...

So people as dark as people from sudan are the only true black people?

What?

[Br3admax]

Let's continue to make assumptions. It's very becoming.

[Cainhurst Crow]

So why did we need this conversation? Do people really think bioware needs a reminder to do their usual song and dance pandering at least where sexuality is concerned? Bioware won't write romances with depth, or complexity, or real struggle or self-defined personality, but more an appeal to everyone romance model where every character is a schrodengers cat state of being both gay and straight at the same time. Character will take a back seat to beefcake and cheesecake because its easier to write.

As for "token characters" as minorities, is thst really what you want? To have a character become a caricature, or worse, a large blank nothing just flr the sake of visual appeasement? Wouldn't you rather have a character whose experience is part of their looks? A dark skin character talking about how difficult it was to live in such a different setting, surronded by a different people and culture, has a lot of potential. But thst story will be ignored in favor of "all humans are the same" archetype number 4 because the character is there only for affirmative action appeasement.

Why is ot that dwarves elves and qunari have all these fish out of water tales, but characters like humans don't? We see the national tension of thedas, it is real. But characters who are human never go through that? Really? And now we're ignoring the racism a medievil white dominated society woukd have for dark skinned characters because they're token and there for appeasement alone? Are you kidding me!?

[Ryzaki]

leaguer of one wrote...
So people as dark as people from sudan are the only true black people?

Not enough facepalms in the world.

And now we're ignoring the racism a medievil white dominated society
woukd have for dark skinned characters because they're token and there
for appeasement alone? Are you kidding me!?

/facepalm

When there's other species to be racist against I doubt humans are going to be *that* bothered that X has a few shades darker/lighter than him. Not to mention the protagonist can be dark and this is not an issue so why would it suddenly become an issue with a companion?

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 novembre 2013 - 04:32 .

[Steelcan]

variance between human races doesn't seem to be an issue in Thedas, so I question the point of putting in new darker characters merely for inclusiveness's sake.

[leaguer of one]

J. Reezy wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
So people as dark as people from sudan are the only true black people?

Amazing leap in logic there buddy

AresKeith wrote...



What?

I'm clearly teasing. My point is Isabella is pretty dark and a good reprisentation on how some people look dark, why bring up the point that she could of been made darker? What would be the point if she was made darker?
She clearly has  high medium tone dark skin.

[Laughing_Man]

I have nothing against the existance of the kinds of characters from the OP.

Assuming of course that these characters are first and foremost characters in the story.
That means that they have a real part to play in the story aside from being "the gay" or "the black person" or "the feminist".

There is almost nothing worse than a preachy character on his or her soapbox.

Modifié par TheRedVipress, 27 novembre 2013 - 04:36 .

[leaguer of one]

Ryzaki wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
So people as dark as people from sudan are the only true black people?

Not enough facepalms in the world.

Again, clearly teasing. My point is Isabella is pretty dark and a good reprisentation on how some people look dark, why bring up the point that she could of been made darker? What would be the point if she was made darker?
She clearly has  high medium tone dark skin.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Give me 1 reason nationalism wouldn't play a part in thedas's biases or discrimination? I cant think of any situation where people wouldn't be discriminatory based on nation of origin, spiritual belief, sex, orientation, and yes skintone, outsode of a life and death scenario.

As for the player, they can have a flag based on what position of the slider a person slides the skin tone setting I woukd imagine. If it works for gender, why not skin tone?

[Ryzaki]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Give me 1 reason nationalism wouldn't play a part in thedas's biases or discrimination? I cant think of any situation where people wouldn't be discriminatory based on nation of origin, spiritual belief, sex, orientation, and yes skintone, outsode of a life and death scenario.

As for the player, they can have a flag based on what position of the slider a person slides the skin tone setting I woukd imagine. If it works for gender, why not skin tone?

Because there's bigger things to be discriminated over, elves, hordes, qunari and mages just to name a few.

Playing a game and being belittled over my skin color would ****** me off to no end. If BW puts that crap in their game I want to be forewarned so I know immediately not to buy. Some people get enough of that crap in their day to day.

Again, clearly teasing. My point is Isabella is pretty dark and a good reprisentation on how some people look dark, why bring up the point that she could of been made darker? What would be the point if she was made darker?She clearly has  high medium tone dark skin.

I want my female characters to be darker than she is. I can't accomplish that in the character generator. They end up fugly. (Why the creator is so cruel to dark skin I'll never understand). I want a character my skin color. Alas my skin color doesn't look right in the CC. I want my skin color to look right in the CC. That's all. It has jack squat to do with facial features.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 novembre 2013 - 04:42 .

[leaguer of one]

EntropicAngel wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

I'm clearly teasing. My point is Isabella is pretty dark and a good reprisentation on how some people look dark, why bring up the point that she could of been made darker? What would be the point if she was made darker?
She clearly has  high medium tone dark skin.

I DO agree that Isabella is fairly dark. Not as dark as some (you may or may not have seen the "the reason black people smile with their teeth" kind of pictures), but pretty dark.

Not black, though, which is why I like that they have Vivienne, and especially that Vivienne doesn't seem to be the [tritest-cliche-there-is] whole "tribal" type--that crap gets old quick.

And now I escape before this descends any further.

East Indian share the the same racal slurs Africans received over a long time. They are also "BLACK"people.(This coming from an afro carribian.)
 What you mean is that she does not look afrian. She is still black.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 27 novembre 2013 - 04:46 .

[leaguer of one]

Ryzaki wrote...



I want my female characters to be darker than she is. I can't accomplish that in the character generator. They end up fugly. (Why the creator is so cruel to dark skin I'll never understand). I want a character my skin color. Alas my skin color doesn't look right in the CC. I want my skin color to look right in the CC. That's all. It has jack squat to do with facial features.

Ok, that point I can at least understand and support.

[In Exile]

Darth Brotarian wrote...
A dark skin character talking about how difficult it was to live in such a different setting, surronded by a different people and culture, has a lot of potential. But thst story will be ignored in favor of "all humans are the same" archetype number 4 because the character is there only for affirmative action appeasement.

That only works when the setting actually has racial prejudice. But Thedas doesn't - it established it's all national. A person talking about that kind of racism in Thedas makes as much sense as someone IRL talking about prejudice against hair or eye colour. 

Why is ot that dwarves elves and qunari have all these fish out of water tales, but characters like humans don't? We see the national tension of thedas, it is real. But characters who are human never go through that? Really? And now we're ignoring the racism a medievil white dominated society woukd have for dark skinned characters because they're token and there for appeasement alone? Are you kidding me!?

We are ignoring that racism, because it didn't actually exist historically. 

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

There is three distinctive skin shades of colors based on wikipedia: White, Brown and Black.
http://en.wikipedia....ki/Brown_people
Brown people are like Indians, Southern Iranians, Arabs, South East Asians, Native Americans (Latins) and possibly African people with light brown skin are also considered like Ethiopians. As when they spend time under the sun in natural state without any creams or whatever, they turn more "brownish" rather "reddish" (White people).

/FACT

Technically Black people range starts when they're darker than those mentioned above.

[leaguer of one]

In Exile wrote...



We are ignoring that racism, because it didn't actually exist historically. 

More of the case it does not happen that way in that world. But, Hey Fereldins do get treated like crap every where any way.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 27 novembre 2013 - 04:51 .

[InvincibleHero]

All bow at the altar of PC. The problem with pc is the hypocrisy only their way of thinking is correct. Changing someone's beliefs are akin to teaching a dog to be a cat. Only positive instances are to be shown and promote a certain agenda.

Hence, all the villains are white, male, and hetero for the most part lest they offend. You would think 99.9% of crimes and murders in videogames are done by Caucasian males that this mirrors real life. We couldn't have a person of color deal drugs because we know that doesn't happen right. We don't want reality in games so stop pretending that is what is desired. You only want good inclusions not anything that is in any way negative even if that has actual real world basis.

Imagine if Loghain were of color. The forums would have exploded from the bile thrown about. What if a gay man were shown to be the sleaziest person that would kill his grandmother for 5 sovereign? Right we can't have that so again has to be a white man or an elf right that's ok as long as they are presumably straight.

How about instead of trying to influence the entertainment bioware makes how about we listen to the story and message that they would like to tell. if we find value in that then it is money well spent. If not then spend your dollars elsewhere. People really really really think they ought to determine what some media creator makes. It only has worth if it agrees with their sensibilities and that is just short-sighted and egocentric. I don't want everything to be diluted with pc because then we have no real diversity or little of any value if it is to be forced upon everyone.

because white males cannot be harmed by negative association right? Wait I know it's just a game right that explains it. Well then that cuts both ways doesn't it? I don't take things personal as commentary of my being just because some media portrayed my ethnicity in a negative light. It is supposed to be entertainment and any social commentary should be left to the media creators but if it gets too propagandistic (no matter if the aim is commendable) you're just going to blind people out to the white noise and possibly cost sales.

So if the villain is of a minority group we should be no more offended than if it were portrayed as the usual white caucasian, but that is almost never the case. Only then will we have true equality.

Modifié par InvincibleHero, 27 novembre 2013 - 04:53 .

[RedArmyShogun]

I'm so happy that Bioware doesn't make Mario or Zelda...

Modifié par RedArmyShogun, 27 novembre 2013 - 04:51 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

@Ryzaki, having bigger things to discriminate against shouldn't mean humans instantly stop being douches to eachother. That's ridiculous. And also, if a game could tell what type of character I make and have characters react accordingly I would probably buy it. Having a setting react to player chioces at thst level sounds mindblowing.

So sick of games not having any sort of realistic interactions where only 1 or 2 characters are allowed to be ****s and the rest of thedas is blind to your character. I make a mage, I should be treated as a mage in game, not as a undefined blob until I tell a character "by the way I'm a mage", especially when I'm csrrying a staff and dressed in fsncy robes. When I played an elf or dwarf in DAO most times nobody even seemed to notice I wasn't human unless the sidequest demanded it. And not to bust out the old skyrim comparison, but at least there people seemed to notice when I played a tall humanoid reptilian.

[leaguer of one]

InvincibleHero wrote...

All bow at the altar of PC. The problem with pc is the hypocrisy only their way of thinking is correct. Changing someone's beliefs are akin to teaching a dog to be a cat. Only positive instances are to be shown and promote a certain agenda.

Hence, all the villains are white, male, and hetero for the most part lest they offend. You would think 99.9% of crimes and murders in videogames are done by Caucasian males. We couldn't have a person of color deal drugs because we know that doesn't happen right. We don't want reality in games so stop pretending that is what is desired. You only want good inclusions not anything that is in any way negative even if that has actual real world basis.

Imagine if Loghain were of color. The forums would have exploded from the bile thrown about. What if a gay man were shown to be the sleaziest person that would kill his grandmother for 5 sovereign? Right we can't have that so again has to be a white man or an elf right that's ok as long as they are presumably straight.

How about instead of trying to influence the entertainment bioware makes how about we listen to the story and message that they would like to tell. if we find value in that then it is money well spent. If not then spend your dollars elsewhere. People really really really think they ought to determine what some media creator makes. It only has worth if it agrees with their sensibilities and that is just short-sighted and egocentric. I don't want everything to be diluted with pc because then we have no real diversity or little of any value if it is to be forced upon everyone.

because white males cannot be harmed by negative association right? Wait I know it's just a game right that explains it. Well then that cuts both ways doesn't it? I don't take things personal as commentary of my being just because some media portrayed my ethnicity in a negative light. It is supposed to be entertainment and any social commentary should be left to the media creators but if it gets too propagandistic (no matter if the aim is commendable) you're just going to blind people out to the white noise and possibly cost sales.

So if the villain is of a minority group we should be no more offended than if it were portrayed as the usual white caucasian, but that is never the case. Only then will we have true equality.

The  last Antagonist of DA2 was a woman...

[leaguer of one]

Kaiser Arian wrote...

There is three distinctive skin shades of colors based on wikipedia: White, Brown and Black.
http://en.wikipedia....ki/Brown_people
Brown people are like Indians, Southern Iranians, Arabs, South East Asians, Native Americans (Latins) and possibly African people with light brown skin are also considered like Ethiopians. As when they spend time under the sun in natural state without any creams or whatever, they turn more "brownish" rather "reddish" (White people).

/FACT

Technically Black people range starts when they're darker than those mentioned above.

1. Afrian people are brown.

2. http://t0.gstatic.co...qTObenkyGDAWV-Q
This is brown?

[Ryzaki]

@Darth: It does when that's how the setting is.

Realistic interaction =/= equaling the real world because that's the only way discrimination can ever be shown. There is discrimination in the world of Thedas. It's just not based off skin color and gender (though you get the few people that are sexist and I'd guess you'd see a few that are racist but they're the exception and not the norm). Species, religion, country and whether or not you're a mage seems to hold a much bigger part in how the people in Thedas treat one another than skin color.

That said yes I'd like more fear/distrust if I'm playing a mage character (especially a bloodmage). But there's only so much devs can put in people reacting to you differently there's limited resources after all. I'd rather they put it in a few places and have it really count than have it everywhere in little bits and pieces. I liked how in in the Dalish quest in DAO they were much more bitter and distrustful of anyone that wasn't dalish.

also most of the time in DAO you were saving people's asses. They didn't really have the ability to turn their nose up at the person helping them since they weren't getting help from anywhere else.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 novembre 2013 - 05:01 .