242 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr.House]

DinoSteve wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Sopa de Gato wrote...

The problem is making something with a suitable emotional punch that also doesn't feel like you're kicking the player in the nuts or insulting their stupidity. I actually like it when there's a third option for people that want to do so (like the Circle solution for Connor, even though I know a lot of people hate it).

As flogged as it gets, ME3 did this well a couple of times.

I don't, third options like the circle for Connor ruins said event and makes the other choices that where grey clearly the worse choices because there's no draw back to going to the circle.

I don't agree the first two choices are easy and the last choice was clearly supposed to be harder because you needed the circle (whether it was hard enough is a different discussion) I think this is best way to resolve issues but the 3rd way should always be the harder and longer way to do it. I hate when you are restricted to two morally grey choices life doesn't work like that. If you are willing to put the time in you should be fit to get an optimal resolution.

And this is why choices in Bioware games will always be black and white.

Modifié par Mr.House, 27 novembre 2013 - 02:33 .

[Paul E Dangerously]

Ieldra2 wrote...
The choice about the Anvil was my most favorite one as well. I don't see any hint that the volunteers experience something horrible though, the possible evil all lies in the possibility of using it on non-volunteers. 

Read Caridin's journal sometime, if you haven't. The process is pretty horrifying.

[Fast Jimmy]

Lebdood wrote...

Investigation doesn't have to be limited to conversation. The environment, related quests, etc... can all offer tidbits of info that could lead you to the optimal outcome.

I'd rather not be always railroaded towards the optimal outcome, only to always have a less optimal outcome present that is only taken by those who are roleplaying a selfish or lazy character.

I'd say that Dragon Age: Inquisiton has already taken steps with this. In the demo, it is shown that burning the templar escape boats increases the time alotted for saving everyone. This is good design. where investigating the environment can lead to an optimal outcome.

 

If "setting the Red Templar boats afire" isn't a quest objective marked in my journal, with an icon on my map and a big arrow showing me exactly where to interact, then it is a bad idea. 

I want to be selfish (give me ALL the gold!), but that shouldn't mean I have to deal with worse story outcomes. If a game tries to do that, I'll just pull up a guide and look for a wor around or a cheat to get unlikited gold anyway, so it defeats the purpose. 

[Lebanese Dude]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Lebdood wrote...

Investigation doesn't have to be limited to conversation. The environment, related quests, etc... can all offer tidbits of info that could lead you to the optimal outcome.

I'd rather not be always railroaded towards the optimal outcome, only to always have a less optimal outcome present that is only taken by those who are roleplaying a selfish or lazy character.

I'd say that Dragon Age: Inquisiton has already taken steps with this. In the demo, it is shown that burning the templar escape boats increases the time alotted for saving everyone. This is good design. where investigating the environment can lead to an optimal outcome.

 

If "setting the Red Templar boats afire" isn't a quest objective marked in my journal, with an icon on my map and a big arrow showing me exactly where to interact, then it is a bad idea. 

I want to be selfish (give me ALL the gold!), but that shouldn't mean I have to deal with worse story outcomes. If a game tries to do that, I'll just pull up a guide and look for a wor around or a cheat to get unlikited gold anyway, so it defeats the purpose. 

But you're essentially saying that exploration should be rendered meaningless, which is totally against what DA:I is fleshing out to be.

Also I'm not saying that selfish characters deserve the worst outcomes. I just don't agree that everything should be handed to us on a silver platter.

I'm aware that there are more casual players that want to enjoy the storyline and avoid exploration, but I have a feeling DA:I will be a bit disappointing if they wish to also experience optimal outcomes.

[Fast Jimmy]

DinoSteve wrote...

I don't agree the first two choices are easy and the last choice was clearly supposed to be harder because you needed the circle (whether it was hard enough is a different discussion) I think this is best way to resolve issues but the 3rd way should always be the harder and longer way to do it. I hate when you are restricted to two morally grey choices life doesn't work like that. If you are willing to put the time in you should be fit to get an optimal resolution.

Life is really all about easy decisions, where you have plenty of time to talk to everyone, give away all your money and never fear any reprisal from your enemies. That's why I love Bioware games - they reflect my real life in how I approach and solve all of my problems. 

[Imryll]

Sopa de Gato wrote...

The problem is making something with a suitable emotional punch that also doesn't feel like you're kicking the player in the nuts or insulting their stupidity. I actually like it when there's a third option for people that want to do so (like the Circle solution for Connor, even though I know a lot of people hate it).

As flogged as it gets, ME3 did this well a couple of times.

It's easy to forget how it felt to go for the Circle solution for Connor at release. I sweated every step of the way not knowing if I'd get back in time, not even knowing if the deck was stacked against me so that I could never get back in time. I think choices need to be designed for the player who doesn't know what the outcomes will be. That there is a "best" solution if you choose to meta-game is somewhat beside the point.

If the outcomes will be negative regardless, to my mind choice is devalued. Opting for the riskier approach shouldn't always be rewarded because at least the first-time player needs to feel genuine uncertainty about which choice will have the best results, uncertainty you won't feel if you know from the getgo that Bioware will never provide an entirely good outcome.

Modifié par Imryll, 27 novembre 2013 - 02:46 .

[Paul E Dangerously]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

I don't agree the first two choices are easy and the last choice was clearly supposed to be harder because you needed the circle (whether it was hard enough is a different discussion) I think this is best way to resolve issues but the 3rd way should always be the harder and longer way to do it. I hate when you are restricted to two morally grey choices life doesn't work like that. If you are willing to put the time in you should be fit to get an optimal resolution.

Life is really all about easy decisions, where you have plenty of time to talk to everyone, give away all your money and never fear any reprisal from your enemies. That's why I love Bioware games - they reflect my real life in how I approach and solve all of my problems. 

This got old about two posts in. The whole SARCASTIC RESPONSE XD is a particular type of posting you normally see on particular imageboards, and even there it's frowned upon.

[Lebanese Dude]

Sopa de Gato wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

I don't agree the first two choices are easy and the last choice was clearly supposed to be harder because you needed the circle (whether it was hard enough is a different discussion) I think this is best way to resolve issues but the 3rd way should always be the harder and longer way to do it. I hate when you are restricted to two morally grey choices life doesn't work like that. If you are willing to put the time in you should be fit to get an optimal resolution.

Life is really all about easy decisions, where you have plenty of time to talk to everyone, give away all your money and never fear any reprisal from your enemies. That's why I love Bioware games - they reflect my real life in how I approach and solve all of my problems. 

This got old about two posts in. The whole SARCASTIC RESPONSE XD is a particular type of posting you normally see on particular imageboards, and even there it's frowned upon.

....wait Fast Jimmy has been sarcastic this whole time? 

Derp lol

[Muspade]

I thought I called it for you on the last page.

[Lebanese Dude]

Muspade wrote...

I thought I called it for you on the last page.

I missed it 

[Fast Jimmy]

Lebdood wrote...

But you're essentially saying that exploration should be rendered meaningless, which is totally against what DA:I is fleshing out to be.

Also I'm not saying that selfish characters deserve the worst outcomes. I just don't agree that everything should be handed to us on a silver platter.

I'm aware that there are more casual players that want to enjoy the storyline and avoid exploration, but I have a feeling DA:I will be a bit disappointing if they wish to also experience optimal outcomes.

If I only have few hours a week to devote to a game and can only pull off a 20 hour playthrough, why should my story be sadder because of it? Scouring every nook and cranny should get you optimal armor and weapons, but why should I not be able to drop it down to Casual, burn through the game in a couple sittings and get the happiest outcomes?

[Lebanese Dude]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Lebdood wrote...

But you're essentially saying that exploration should be rendered meaningless, which is totally against what DA:I is fleshing out to be.

Also I'm not saying that selfish characters deserve the worst outcomes. I just don't agree that everything should be handed to us on a silver platter.

I'm aware that there are more casual players that want to enjoy the storyline and avoid exploration, but I have a feeling DA:I will be a bit disappointing if they wish to also experience optimal outcomes.

If I only have few hours a week to devote to a game and can only pull off a 20 hour playthrough, why should my story be sadder because of it? Scouring every nook and cranny should get you optimal armor and weapons, but why should I not be able to drop it down to Casual, burn through the game in a couple sittings and get the happiest outcomes?

The same reason you can't read a 500 page thesis in one sitting. You want to get through something in one piece, you should be ready to devote some time to it.

Also the difficulty setting is irrelevant


P.S. I was told you were being sarcastic but your responses are actually pretty common complaints

[Fast Jimmy]

Lebdood wrote...
The same reason you can't read a 500 page thesis in one sitting. You want to get through something in one piece, you should be ready to devote some time to it.

Also the difficulty setting is irrelevant.

Yes, I can't read a 500 page thesis... but I can read the summary and conclusion pages and understand the highlights of the document just fine. Same with a book - I can read the first few chapters, then flip to the end and find out what happened.

Yet what you are saying is that the thesis should have different, worse conclusions if I were to skim, or a story to have sadder outcomes, if I want to just hit the high points. That's not entirely fair.

[Lebanese Dude]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Lebdood wrote...
The same reason you can't read a 500 page thesis in one sitting. You want to get through something in one piece, you should be ready to devote some time to it.

Also the difficulty setting is irrelevant.

Yes, I can't read a 500 page thesis... but I can read the summary and conclusion pages and understand the highlights of the document just fine. Same with a book - I can read the first few chapters, then flip to the end and find out what happened.

Yet what you are saying is that the thesis should have different, worse conclusions if I were to skim, or a story to have sadder outcomes, if I want to just hit the high points. That's not entirely fair.

Well if you ignore the analysis, then you're not going to understand the conclusions. You're depriving yourself of that information. Your experience will be reduced. It won't be the same. Not optimal.

In the end it's all about what you find entertaining. I'm sure DA;I will appeal to both our tastes in one way or another.

Modifié par Lebdood, 27 novembre 2013 - 03:11 .

[Muspade]

If you're preparing food and skip some ingredients, either intentionally or unknowingly, your food will taste worse/bad.

Modifié par Muspade, 27 novembre 2013 - 03:11 .

[Lebanese Dude]

^ 

Better than my thesis example ;P

Modifié par Lebdood, 27 novembre 2013 - 03:10 .

[nightscrawl]

I'm going to post something I wrote in another thread.

nightscrawl wrote...

If a person can be saved, then by all means, save them. This is one reason I dislike the third, perfect option where Connor is concerned in DAO. Sure, I can pretend it doesn't exist, but that seems rather lame, especially when the NPCs are throwing "there has to be another way" in my face. If we were just left with the two bad choices, you would be able to decide based on your perspective. You can either think that blood magic is evil, no matter what, and opt to kill the child rather than resort to the blood magic, or you can allow a mother to sacrifice herself for her son. Although I dislike blood magic, I prefer the latter, because it is what Isolde wants, and also because I think that killing him outright is too risky as far as Arl Eamon's health is concerned, since we are led to believe that Eamon > everything, in this scenario.

I do feel that, ignoring the perfect option, the Connor choice is the best example of this kind of decision. You can choose based on a number of factors: your character RP and their beliefs or knowledge/ignorance of magic, an emotional reaction to the circumstances, practicality and how this decision affects the plot in the long run, or by using meta information to get your desired results.

I think it's very hard, when presented with a perfect scenario to solve a problem, to not take that path. Everybody lives is so tempting, and I think it takes a player rigidly devoted to their RP to purposely ignore other dialog options that suggest a better path.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 27 novembre 2013 - 03:14 .

[Lebanese Dude]

nightscrawl wrote...


I think it's very hard, when presented with a perfect scenario to solve a problem, to not take that path. Everybody lives is so tempting, and I think it takes a player rigidly devoted to their RP to purposely ignore other dialog options that suggest a better path.

"Everybody" lives is never a bad scenario to implement. It only gets jarring when it's always the optimal outcome. Sometimes sacrifice leads to a better story.

Example: Legion, Mordin..etc...

[Fast Jimmy]

Muspade wrote...

If you're preparing food and skip some ingredients, either intentionally or unknowingly, your food will taste worse/bad.

If Bioware has a recipe for a story that purposefully leaves ingredients out of the recipe book (aka the quest log/journal), then that's not a good recipe, nor should someone who follows that recipe, without scouring the kitchen for more ingredients, be punished for it. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 27 novembre 2013 - 03:24 .

[Wulfram]

I'd rather have moral choices be about what ends you're after, rather than do "ends justify the means" type ones.

And I want to avoid ending up with just having endless repetitions of the Trolley problem with ever increasing stakes and different window dressing.

Modifié par Wulfram, 27 novembre 2013 - 03:42 .

[Lebanese Dude]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Muspade wrote...

If you're preparing food and skip some ingredients, either intentionally or unknowingly, your food will taste worse/bad.

If Bioware has a recipe for a story that purposefully leaves ingredients out of the recipe book (aka the quest log/journal), then that's not a good recipe, nor should someone who follows that recipe, without scouring the kitchen for more invredients, be punished for it. 

Recipe:

-Get quest to save victim
-Go to marker
-Finish quest but victim gets killed


That's all they ever tell you. Sometimes talking to people reveals extra details

-Get quest
-Talk to victim's nearby mother to learn about a charm
-Get protective charm
-Go to marker
-Finish quest and save victim 

This is a staple in many games and I don't see it changing. Granted, sometimes the difference in outcomes is more subtle.

[Usergnome]

For me atleast, a difficult decision was the Tuchanka quests with ME3.

Do I save the Krogan race because I need them, and cure the Genophage?
Do I sabotage the cure, and also get Salarian aid but lie to the Krogan?

I went into it blind, so I did not know Wreav would be such a dick and that Eve would die. She died AFTER I revealed the sabotage, and Wreav made me nervous about the future, but in the end the Genophage was cured, and I regretted it. I just made the warlike race return to power with Wreav as their tyrant leader. Reapers "won" anyways, so it didn't matter cause I shot the catalyst xD

But during Tuchanka it was a very difficult decision. Choosing between two things, wanting the best for everyone but needing to either sacrifice someone or leave people behind is what really gets to me (and most people) other examples of this are choosing between Ash/Kaidan.

So, if DAI builds up your relationship with a place, person, or race, and then forces you to choose between two or more decisions that will not be 100% good for everyone it will be difficult, for me atleast. I can almost compare Quarians to the Dalish, so there is potential there too!

[Fortlowe]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

I don't agree the first two choices are easy and the last choice was clearly supposed to be harder because you needed the circle (whether it was hard enough is a different discussion) I think this is best way to resolve issues but the 3rd way should always be the harder and longer way to do it. I hate when you are restricted to two morally grey choices life doesn't work like that. If you are willing to put the time in you should be fit to get an optimal resolution.

Life is really all about easy decisions, where you have plenty of time to talk to everyone, give away all your money and never fear any reprisal from your enemies. That's why I love Bioware games - they reflect my real life in how I approach and solve all of my problems. 

Precisely. Rational, nuanced reasoning sounds good in theory, but in real life, the only way to get your point across is to devote yourself completely to one extreme or the other. 

[Muspade]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

If Bioware has a recipe for a story that purposefully leaves ingredients out of the recipe book (aka the quest log/journal), then that's not a good recipe, nor should someone who follows that recipe, without scouring the kitchen for more ingredients, be punished for it. 

"Punish" is a strong word, in the sense that if you didn't get the optimal end, your entire playthrough would be crippled because of it. I find it hard to believe, that you'd view it as a punishment rather than diversity.

Naturally, if you're the emotional type and anything bad strikes you in the heart, then I can see your point.

[Karlone123]

A choice between two things, choose one, gain it but lose the other and vice versa. A choice without consequence is just a meaningless one.

Modifié par Karlone123, 27 novembre 2013 - 03:37 .