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Thank you bioware for the best game-series this generation. From start to finish the ride was fantastic.


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#126
jstme

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ImaginaryMatter wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Considering most of the elements present in the final mix of the endings also makes it nearly impossible to suggest that only Walters and Hudson had a hand in the input of the ending. As for the concept, I discussed this many times really as a welcome one for more philosophical reasons that allow us to continue this discussion. It is an anti-video game ending, and I love it for that because we need more of it's kind.


What's an anti-video game ending?

Its,like, artsy. Does not fit the rest of the trilogy.Oh, also grim-dark.Finally, speculations from everyone.
Brilliant. Cough cough. 

#127
angol fear

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ImaginaryMatter wrote...

angol fear wrote...

durasteel wrote...

I don't know about it being an "anti-video-game" ending, I'm just very comfortable with making an unequivocal assertion that it was anti-good.

I don't want to re-hash all the aspects of the ending's abyssmal failure, it's been done to death. I would encourage you, however, to consume a tiny sliver of the media featuring analysis of the ending from the perspective of narrative continuity. It would fail as egregiously as an ending to a novel, a movie, a television show or season, or a comic.


From the perspective of the narrative, the orignal ending is far from being a failure, it's just the opposite. If the "analysis" you're talking about are the one on internet, they are mostly amateur. Using vocabulary of narrative analysis isn't enough to make a real analysis. I didn't see a real critic on internet and I take a look whenever someone is posting an "analysis". You shouldn't be so self-confident when you talk about the ending.


I think he's talking about general storytelling guidelines and rules of dramatic structure that were ignored during the ending. Also I think most video game reviews, especially ones that review story telling elements, are on the internet.



That's what I was talking about too. And no, the ending didn't ignore the rest of the trilogy, the themes that appeared from the beginning and the overall structure are very clear about that. A real analysis proves it. Now if he dislikes, it's ok, but if he wants to defend his opinion with analysis, he has to know that what we find on internet has no value, it's not analysis.

#128
KaiserShep

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jstme wrote...
Its,like, artsy. Does not fit the rest of the trilogy.Oh, also grim-dark.Finally, speculations from everyone.
Brilliant. Cough cough. 


Parts of the game are certainly grim, but the ending is in no way grimdark unless you screw it up or pick refuse.

#129
Kel Riever

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Argentoid wrote...


Right, name calling.  Who's serious now?

I love your hypocrisy.  Look at you, all mad.

I feel like I already won this argument. 

Image IPB


Was there any hypocrisy of mine, Kal?

Feel whatever you want to feel my kind sir, but with an attitude like that, you will always think you won any argument (cause it seems like you always think so)

HO HO HO 




You are adorable.

Buy me my DLC.  I am missing Leviathan, Omega and Citadel.  Plus the weapons upgrade pack.   Prove your point with your money.

Modifié par Kel Riever, 07 décembre 2013 - 02:11 .


#130
KaiserShep

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You ain't no kind of sugar daddy if you don't buy that weapons pack.

#131
Kel Riever

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KaiserShep wrote...

You ain't no kind of sugar daddy if you don't buy that weapons pack.


It's the entry level proof.

Modifié par Kel Riever, 07 décembre 2013 - 02:43 .


#132
ThatBigStupidJellyfish

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EA sucks n stuff

#133
LinksOcarina

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Kel Riever wrote...

Right, name calling.  Who's serious now?

I love your hypocrisy.  Look at you, all mad.

I feel like I already won this argument. 

Image IPB


Trolls always think they win, until they retreat back to their bridge. 

#134
LinksOcarina

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Malchat wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

The entire trilogy will be remembered ten, twenty, thirty years from now, and will have the same level of curiosity, resepect, and discussion as any zelda or mario game out there. I guarentee we will be talking about, playing, and remembering Mass Effect like its the next Ocarina of Time. 



I believe the execution of the ending and the backlash are forever linked. Is this fair? Maybe not... but considering the way people talk about/report on, say, Lost, Battlestar Galactica, Happy Days or the Star Wars prequels, it seems fan outrage can shape the public's longterm perception quite a bit.

Bioware seems to share your optimism however, firm in their resolve to never discuss their intentions and artistic choices and emphasizing the game's commercial and critical success repeatedly (and occasionally marginalizing the backlash.)

If Mass Effect has its place in gaming history, I think it'll be because of pioneering cinematic storytelling and its inclusive attitude to gender and sexuality, still a sad rarity in AAA gaming. Their willingness to address the ending backlash with free content is also one for the history books. These accomplshments aside, I sincerely doubt ME's finale will be retroactively celebrated in the future... unless, by some miracle, the next ME reframes it in the context of a larger story.


It will also be other moments of memory, dymanic storytelling and thematical symbolism being other parts to look for.

Fan outrage is a silly concept to me. I recently watched episode one of star wars, it holds up well as a movie and is honestly more entertaining than the other two prequel movies. It aged over time to be more akin to the original stories, and it takes a different perception over time to maybe see it that way. I don't know.

The way fans talk about stuff like Lost, like Battlestar, its true many will bash and berate it, but it really should be others shaping their opinions on things, new people never playing the games before. There was this lovely blog dicussing someone playing all three titles back to back for the first time, after beating them seperately. This paragraph hits it home for me, really.

I discussed this briefly with Daniel over the forums, but the Mass Effect series is very emotional. You invest so much time in learning the personalities of other characters as you get to know them, you explore strange, brilliant and imaginative worlds and cultures and you do so much for the galaxy, or yourself if you choose such a path. That's the beauty of the series; while it is Shepard's story, it's essentially your story. My playthrough may be considered boring to some or even most, but to me it felt right and it was the story I wanted to hear. The people around you, the galaxy itself and the overall storyline takes new shape and form depending on your actions and decisions. Seeing it all come to a close, seeing it all finish, seeing an end to Shepard's journey, to your journey, it's very emotional.

I think the ending will be a part of the discussion, I think it was also designed to be a part of the discussion as well. We can criticize and speculate all we want, but we still talk about it. Through this, it does breathe life into the series in a new way, one that does give it intellectual, artistic, even commercial merit as a title. I know I can name well loved games this generation, but I don't see any having a long-standing impact as much as Mass Effect did. It is something unique in of itself if it's already in a category like Lost and Battlestar Galactica, anyway.

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 07 décembre 2013 - 05:21 .


#135
Argentoid

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Kel Riever wrote...

Argentoid wrote...


Right, name calling.  Who's serious now?

I love your hypocrisy.  Look at you, all mad.

I feel like I already won this argument. 

Image IPB


Was there any hypocrisy of mine, Kal?

Feel whatever you want to feel my kind sir, but with an attitude like that, you will always think you won any argument (cause it seems like you always think so)

HO HO HO 




You are adorable.

Buy me my DLC.  I am missing Leviathan, Omega and Citadel.  Plus the weapons upgrade pack.   Prove your point with your money.


Pirate it. That's another way to go.

#136
LinksOcarina

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jstme wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Considering most of the elements present in the final mix of the endings also makes it nearly impossible to suggest that only Walters and Hudson had a hand in the input of the ending. As for the concept, I discussed this many times really as a welcome one for more philosophical reasons that allow us to continue this discussion. It is an anti-video game ending, and I love it for that because we need more of it's kind.


What's an anti-video game ending?

Its,like, artsy. Does not fit the rest of the trilogy.Oh, also grim-dark.Finally, speculations from everyone.
Brilliant. Cough cough. 


Partially. Anti-video game ending is basically going against the managed expectations of what people expect you to do. For example (and spoiler) 

If the ending to a game like The Last of Us had Joel let Ellie die, or even better, killed her himelf, for the greater good, that would be an anti-video game ending, because it flies in the face of him saving her, while subsequently potentially dooming everyone to their current existance. We lose the entire telegraphed journey Joel goes on to learn compassion in a compassionless world again, breaking the expectation that he would learn it in time.

#137
Kel Riever

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LinksOcarina wrote...

Kel Riever wrote...

Right, name calling.  Who's serious now?

I love your hypocrisy.  Look at you, all mad.

I feel like I already won this argument. 

Image IPB


Trolls always think they win, until they retreat back to their bridge. 




Stop talking about yourself!

No, seriously, Argentoid is right.  I could pirate it.  But really, my way is more fun.  The troll comment is throwing in the towel and admitting defeat.  See, my way is consistent, that's why I think people have a problem with it.  If you hate the game, you shouldn't be buying more of it and yet I see people keep spending money on it and complaining.  If you like it, and spend money on it, that makes sense, too.

The extremists are the trolls, i.e. anybody who seriously has a problem with what I'm saying.  You've got 'fans' outright lying about purchasing 3 or more copies of the DLC because they love it so much.  Really?  I'm calling their bluff.  I don't want to pay for it so I am offering them the chance to prove what they say.

Its funny how upset people seem over that.  Really.  And I'm the problem?  I'm just asking people to stop BSing.  Plus I'm benefitting.  That makes me a bad person?  For asking?  Wel, I suppose I'm all those terrible things.  Pardon me if I don't just lmao at it! :innocent:

Modifié par Kel Riever, 07 décembre 2013 - 07:13 .


#138
AlanC9

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Hey, if people are really buying DLC for other players, sign me up. I don't think DLC is worth it at the current price points, but I'd certainly love to play some.

#139
Kel Riever

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AlanC9 wrote...

Hey, if people are really buying DLC for other players, sign me up. I don't think DLC is worth it at the current price points, but I'd certainly love to play some.


See!  I am telling you, this is a bipartisan approach.  You can be an ending lover or hater and appreciate someone else buying your DLC for you!

#140
LinksOcarina

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Kel Riever wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Kel Riever wrote...

Right, name calling.  Who's serious now?

I love your hypocrisy.  Look at you, all mad.

I feel like I already won this argument. 

Image IPB


Trolls always think they win, until they retreat back to their bridge. 




Stop talking about yourself!

No, seriously, Argentoid is right.  I could pirate it.  But really, my way is more fun.  The troll comment is throwing in the towel and admitting defeat.  See, my way is consistent, that's why I think people have a problem with it.  If you hate the game, you shouldn't be buying more of it and yet I see people keep spending money on it and complaining.  If you like it, and spend money on it, that makes sense, too.

The extremists are the trolls, i.e. anybody who seriously has a problem with what I'm saying.  You've got 'fans' outright lying about purchasing 3 or more copies of the DLC because they love it so much.  Really?  I'm calling their bluff.  I don't want to pay for it so I am offering them the chance to prove what they say.

Its funny how upset people seem over that.  Really.  And I'm the problem?  I'm just asking people to stop BSing.  Plus I'm benefitting.  That makes me a bad person?  For asking?  Wel, I suppose I'm all those terrible things.  Pardon me if I don't just lmao at it! :innocent:


No, you are trolling people as much as they are trolling you dude. That's the fun part about this really.

I hope someone does buy it for you now, because the realization that the joke is no longer funny will be a sweet sight indeed to witness. 

#141
AlanC9

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More The Last of Us spoilers below:


LinksOcarina wrote...

jstme wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Considering most of the elements present in the final mix of the endings also makes it nearly impossible to suggest that only Walters and Hudson had a hand in the input of the ending. As for the concept, I discussed this many times really as a welcome one for more philosophical reasons that allow us to continue this discussion. It is an anti-video game ending, and I love it for that because we need more of it's kind.


What's an anti-video game ending?

Its,like, artsy. Does not fit the rest of the trilogy.Oh, also grim-dark.Finally, speculations from everyone.
Brilliant. Cough cough. 


Partially. Anti-video game ending is basically going against the managed expectations of what people expect you to do. For example (and spoiler) 

If the ending to a game like The Last of Us had Joel let Ellie die, or even better, killed her himelf, for the greater good, that would be an anti-video game ending, because it flies in the face of him saving her, while subsequently potentially dooming everyone to their current existance. We lose the entire telegraphed journey Joel goes on to learn compassion in a compassionless world again, breaking the expectation that he would learn it in time.


OTOH, there's an argument that TLoU was already trying to subvert video game conventions, by making a mockery of (the illusion of) player agency; turns out you've been playing a sociopath all along, and you never had any choice about it. (BTW, doesn't the existing ending doom everyone?)

#142
AlanC9

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Kel Riever wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Hey, if people are really buying DLC for other players, sign me up. I don't think DLC is worth it at the current price points, but I'd certainly love to play some.


See!  I am telling you, this is a bipartisan approach.  You can be an ending lover or hater and appreciate someone else buying your DLC for you!


I suppose we could try something like this.

#143
sH0tgUn jUliA

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Kel, they won't buy you a copy of the DLC? I'll buy you the Leviathan DLC. And it's free!!! Make some popcorn, set Youtube on HD, and fullscreen - oh run it on your 360 and watch this:

Leviathan - - 1:08:40 and very well done. With Badassfulness. You want to watch this one, and not the other version.

Omega - 55:34 also very well done - With Badassfulness. You want to watch this one, trust me, because it is more fun.

#144
LinksOcarina

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sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Kel, they won't buy you a copy of the DLC? I'll buy you the Leviathan DLC. And it's free!!! Make some popcorn, set Youtube on HD, and fullscreen - oh run it on your 360 and watch this:

Leviathan - - 1:08:40 and very well done. With Badassfulness. You want to watch this one, and not the other version.

Omega - 55:34 also very well done - With Badassfulness. You want to watch this one, trust me, because it is more fun.


that shouldnt count, any monkey can do that.

#145
LinksOcarina

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AlanC9 wrote...

More The Last of Us spoilers below:


LinksOcarina wrote...

jstme wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Considering most of the elements present in the final mix of the endings also makes it nearly impossible to suggest that only Walters and Hudson had a hand in the input of the ending. As for the concept, I discussed this many times really as a welcome one for more philosophical reasons that allow us to continue this discussion. It is an anti-video game ending, and I love it for that because we need more of it's kind.


What's an anti-video game ending?

Its,like, artsy. Does not fit the rest of the trilogy.Oh, also grim-dark.Finally, speculations from everyone.
Brilliant. Cough cough. 


Partially. Anti-video game ending is basically going against the managed expectations of what people expect you to do. For example (and spoiler) 

If the ending to a game like The Last of Us had Joel let Ellie die, or even better, killed her himelf, for the greater good, that would be an anti-video game ending, because it flies in the face of him saving her, while subsequently potentially dooming everyone to their current existance. We lose the entire telegraphed journey Joel goes on to learn compassion in a compassionless world again, breaking the expectation that he would learn it in time.


OTOH, there's an argument that TLoU was already trying to subvert video game conventions, by making a mockery of (the illusion of) player agency; turns out you've been playing a sociopath all along, and you never had any choice about it. (BTW, doesn't the existing ending doom everyone?)


That is a very odd argument (if its true) because the game doesn't match the conventions you said. The world is harsh and you have a chance at ending it, but you grow a conscious and decide not to. It is what you expected from scene one where your kid dies in your arms after being shot (and yes, I am charing that the ending was telegraphed then) 

As for lack of player agency, it was always there. It's in every game though, your not mocking it when you use it to tell a story now. It's again, managing expections. 

 the existing ending does doom everyone, but the point is Joel finds compassion again after tragedy. It's a character driven story then. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 07 décembre 2013 - 07:47 .


#146
sH0tgUn jUliA

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LinksOcarina wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Kel, they won't buy you a copy of the DLC? I'll buy you the Leviathan DLC. And it's free!!! Make some popcorn, set Youtube on HD, and fullscreen - oh run it on your 360 and watch this:

Leviathan - - 1:08:40 and very well done. With Badassfulness. You want to watch this one, and not the other version.

Omega - 55:34 also very well done - With Badassfulness. You want to watch this one, trust me, because it is more fun.


that shouldnt count, any monkey can do that.


Really? Have you watched how well the person edited them? They spent quite a bit of time with their video editing software to get this quality. And they didn't jerk the scenes around like so many players do. The scenes where the player has control are very smooth. So no, any monkey can't do this. B) 

I have Omega. It was fun to play. I picked it up at the 600 MS points sale. I don't have Leviathan. Its entire purpose was to justify the Starchild.

#147
LinksOcarina

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sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Kel, they won't buy you a copy of the DLC? I'll buy you the Leviathan DLC. And it's free!!! Make some popcorn, set Youtube on HD, and fullscreen - oh run it on your 360 and watch this:

Leviathan - - 1:08:40 and very well done. With Badassfulness. You want to watch this one, and not the other version.

Omega - 55:34 also very well done - With Badassfulness. You want to watch this one, trust me, because it is more fun.


that shouldnt count, any monkey can do that.


Really? Have you watched how well the person edited them? They spent quite a bit of time with their video editing software to get this quality. And they didn't jerk the scenes around like so many players do. The scenes where the player has control are very smooth. So no, any monkey can't do this. B) 

I have Omega. It was fun to play. I picked it up at the 600 MS points sale. I don't have Leviathan. Its entire purpose was to justify the Starchild.


Good editing is not that impressive anymore, when 10% of every video watched has it now a days. So yes, any monkey can do it. You want to impress me with a video playthrough, you need to do better than an edit job. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 07 décembre 2013 - 07:58 .


#148
Redbelle

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LinksOcarina wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Kel, they won't buy you a copy of the DLC? I'll buy you the Leviathan DLC. And it's free!!! Make some popcorn, set Youtube on HD, and fullscreen - oh run it on your 360 and watch this:

Leviathan - - 1:08:40 and very well done. With Badassfulness. You want to watch this one, and not the other version.

Omega - 55:34 also very well done - With Badassfulness. You want to watch this one, trust me, because it is more fun.


that shouldnt count, any monkey can do that.


Really? Have you watched how well the person edited them? They spent quite a bit of time with their video editing software to get this quality. And they didn't jerk the scenes around like so many players do. The scenes where the player has control are very smooth. So no, any monkey can't do this. B) 

I have Omega. It was fun to play. I picked it up at the 600 MS points sale. I don't have Leviathan. Its entire purpose was to justify the Starchild.


Good editing is not that impressive anymore, when 10% of every video watched has it now a days. So yes, any monkey can do it. You want to impress me with a video playthrough, you need to do better than an edit job. 





That's kinda like saying a master craftsman's wares are worth less because many others can craft to the same level and thumbing the nose at those who have poured in the time and effort to learn how to do what they do as well as it can be done.

A good playthrough may indeed need more than good editting......... but let's not be mean about someone who had great editing skills...... Great Twitch streamers live off paying people for their expertise to bring in more audience by presenting a professional front.

#149
AlanC9

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People actually watch these things? I can see looking for a particular line of dialogue you missed, but to actually watch the whole thing.... why?

#150
sH0tgUn jUliA

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AlanC9 wrote...

People actually watch these things? I can see looking for a particular line of dialogue you missed, but to actually watch the whole thing.... why?


Why? The way the person edited the Leviathan play, it was as entertaining as watching an episode of Stargate. So why not? They cut all but the cut scene pew pew pew out of it.