Aller au contenu

Photo

There won't be microtransactions, will there? <3


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
263 réponses à ce sujet

#201
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

Guest_EntropicAngel_*
  • Guests

Il Divo wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I suppose they could go the Assassin's Creed route, of coming out with a new release every year?

Then again, that might have been the goal of DA2, to see if that was possible. So... yeah.


Hmm, fair point.

Even as someone who loved all the releases, I did notice less originality starting with Brotherhood.

I will say though that I think an expansion could get away with it a bit better since there will be less expectations for completely original mechanics. You're not designing a completely new engine/game system from the ground up as much as you are enhancing the old system.


Sooooooooo...

Does everyone know that AC games get over two years of development?

Because I see a lot of comments that imply that the AC games get a single year of development, which isn't true in the slightest.

#202
Sylvius the Mad

Sylvius the Mad
  • Members
  • 24 112 messages

Maria Caliban wrote...

And there are lots of applications that automatically store the information.

Lets be clear, parents have never previously been obliged to watch their children's spending like a hawk. That's a burden that modern technology has placed on them.

No, it's a burden parents have placed upon themselves by giving their kids access to unlimited funds.

That's a choice they made.

Again, I don't think the problem is the applications themselves or the parents, I think the problem is that parents lack a basic tool for controlling their children's spending.

There is no such lack.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 29 novembre 2013 - 08:02 .


#203
Il Divo

Il Divo
  • Members
  • 9 775 messages

EntropicAngel wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I suppose they could go the Assassin's Creed route, of coming out with a new release every year?

Then again, that might have been the goal of DA2, to see if that was possible. So... yeah.


Hmm, fair point.

Even as someone who loved all the releases, I did notice less originality starting with Brotherhood.

I will say though that I think an expansion could get away with it a bit better since there will be less expectations for completely original mechanics. You're not designing a completely new engine/game system from the ground up as much as you are enhancing the old system.


Sooooooooo...

Does everyone know that AC games get over two years of development?

Because I see a lot of comments that imply that the AC games get a single year of development, which isn't true in the slightest.


Which for some reason didn't help in the case of Brotherhood and Revelations. They were still good games, but neither in my opinion offered the same "jump" as AC1 to 2 or Revelations to 3. They really felt like expansions instead of major installments, especially from a mechanics stand point.

Modifié par Il Divo, 29 novembre 2013 - 08:11 .


#204
Maria Caliban

Maria Caliban
  • Members
  • 26 094 messages

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

And there are lots of applications that automatically store the information.

Lets be clear, parents have never previously been obliged to watch their children's spending like a hawk. That's a burden that modern technology has placed on them.

No, it's a burden parents have placed upon themselves by giving their kids access to unlimited funds.

That's a choice they made.

Because their options were 'give child no access to online goods' and 'give unlimited access to money.'

If 'give limited access to money' was something they could easily do, then they'd do so, because that's what parents have traditionally done.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

There is no such lack.

Are you saying that banks do offer limited-access debit cards? None of the ones I know of do so.

Unless you're using lack to mean 'lack of something I'm interested in' as opposed to 'lack of option.'

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 29 novembre 2013 - 08:12 .


#205
Il Divo

Il Divo
  • Members
  • 9 775 messages

Maria Caliban wrote...

In the absence of such a solution, no one is at fault. Parents can't be expected to constantly monitor their children. We can have guidelines as to the amount of monitoring a child ought to have; we can have reasonable expectations, but 'constant vigilance' isn't reasonable.


Wait, so we're not going to hold parents at fault for their children having access to their credit cards, or the websites on which this info might be saved?

Constant vigilance isn't any more complicated than password protecting everything you do. Giving your seven year old access to your credit card is bad news bears and it's not anyone else's fault if excessive purchases are made.

#206
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

Guest_EntropicAngel_*
  • Guests

Il Divo wrote...

Which for some reason didn't help in the case of Brotherhood and Revelations. They were still good games, but neither in my opinion offered the same "jump" as AC1 to 2 or Revelations to 3. They really felt like expansions instead of major installments, especially from a mechanics stand point.


Actually to be honest, THOSE two were made after AC2. They didn't realize Ezio's popularity, so they jury-rigged additional story for him. I definitely understand your point. The rest, though, have plenty of time in between them. Just wanted to make that clear--I see way too many comments complaining about AC4 being only a year after AC3 and that not being enough time to make a game.

Modifié par EntropicAngel, 29 novembre 2013 - 08:15 .


#207
Il Divo

Il Divo
  • Members
  • 9 775 messages

EntropicAngel wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Which for some reason didn't help in the case of Brotherhood and Revelations. They were still good games, but neither in my opinion offered the same "jump" as AC1 to 2 or Revelations to 3. They really felt like expansions instead of major installments, especially from a mechanics stand point.


Actually to be honest, THOSE two were made after AC2. They didn't realize Ezio's popularity, so they jury-rigged additional story for him. I definitely understand your point. The rest, though, have plenty of time in between them. Just wanted to make that clear--I see way too many comments complaining about AC4 being only a year after AC3 and that not being enough time to make a game.


I haven't touched AC4, so I can't say much on it. Of the five I've played, 2 and 3 stood out to me as the most "evolved" compared to a previous installment. Brotherhood stood out in that much of Rome evoked a very similar environment style to Florence, while Revelations (which I loved) brought an awesome city in Constantinople, it also stood out as the shortest campaign, by quite a large margin.

#208
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

Guest_EntropicAngel_*
  • Guests
Yeah those campaigns got too short.

ANYWAY. Microtransactions. Meh.

#209
Maria Caliban

Maria Caliban
  • Members
  • 26 094 messages

Il Divo wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

In the absence of such a solution, no one is at fault. Parents can't be expected to constantly monitor their children. We can have guidelines as to the amount of monitoring a child ought to have; we can have reasonable expectations, but 'constant vigilance' isn't reasonable.


Wait, so we're not going to hold parents at fault for their children having access to their credit cards, or the websites on which this info might be saved?

We're going to hold them to reasonable fault. Something which is a bit more nuanced than 'parents are expected to know everything their child does.'

Constant vigilance isn't any more complicated than password protecting everything you do. Giving your seven year old access to your credit card is bad news bears and it's not anyone else's fault if excessive purchases are made.

Except giving your child access to your credit card can be as simple as giving them access to any device that you've ever made a purchase on. Buy a 99 cent game on your Ipad because your kid wants to play it, and that app has your card information.

The idea that someone would then have to pay $600 because that app used microtransactions and your child went wild getting those mystical gems that level up their ponies suggests we see this as an act of criminal negligence. That puts an undue burden on parents.

This is going to hold true as technology and information sharing increase. It's only going to become easier and easier for children to get a hold of parent's card information.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 29 novembre 2013 - 08:29 .


#210
Eurypterid

Eurypterid
  • Members
  • 4 668 messages

Maria Caliban wrote...

Except giving your child access to your credit card can be as simple as giving them access to any device that you've ever made a purchase on. Buy a 99 cent game on your Ipad because your kid wants to play it, and that app has your card information.


But still requires your password to make further purchases.

#211
ImperatorMortis

ImperatorMortis
  • Members
  • 2 571 messages
 This game is gonna be published by EA.

Of course there will be microtransactions. 

#212
Maria Caliban

Maria Caliban
  • Members
  • 26 094 messages

Eurypterid wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Except giving your child access to your credit card can be as simple as giving them access to any device that you've ever made a purchase on. Buy a 99 cent game on your Ipad because your kid wants to play it, and that app has your card information.

But still requires your password to make further purchases.

Which was a feature Apple added after complaints from parents. Previously, you didn't need a password for in-app purchases.

More interestingly, Apple has set up a 'kids only' account parents can create that has a monthly allowance. Giving their child access to limited funds with which to buy online stuff is something parents find handy.

#213
Fast Jimmy

Fast Jimmy
  • Members
  • 17 939 messages

osbornep wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Jeez.... I get the feeling something bad must have happened in Fast Jimmy's family. I've never seen paternalism get this far out of control without some kind of deep psychological scar behind it.


In my experience, playing armchair psychologist on an internet forum rarely ends well.



I find if pretty humorous. That people think I am advocating this level of legalism and corporate responsibility is funny. I don't.

But if people are really so ignorant as to think that isn't the way society is moving, where the supplier of goods and services isn't increasingly becoming more and more responsible for how their goods and services are being used, even by the most idiotic of people in the most irresponsble of situations, then I would say that would be sad if it wasn't, at the same time, so mind-blowingly scary. If people don't see the writing on the wall with the way corporate CYOA tactics need to be applied to every conceivable situation, then I am baffled by your awareness as a consumer. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 29 novembre 2013 - 08:56 .


#214
David7204

David7204
  • Members
  • 15 187 messages
Perhaps you should consider that not everyone is reduced to whimpering fear by corporations, Jummy.

#215
Fast Jimmy

Fast Jimmy
  • Members
  • 17 939 messages

David7204 wrote...

Perhaps you should consider that not everyone is reduced to whimpering fear by corporations, Jummy.


I've always questioned your attention to the posts you respond to, David. 

It's the corporations who whimper in fear, much more often than not, from legal action and regulations. They spend tens of millions in making sure their activities are on the right side of the law. And they REALLY scramble when a law or ruling gets handled down from on high and they are suddenly bleeding money or have to suspend operations while things get fixed or hashed out in court. 

The reason for this is simple - it's not "EA" that has to answer for such things. Not really. If, say, DA:I, was to get hit by such a change in policy it wouldn't even be "Bioware." 

It would be an individual or group who faces the hammer and feels the burn. It could be whoever was in charge of the implementation of microtransactions, or the legal counsel for the Bioware department who gave the okay for the practice, or the Producer or Manager of the game (Darrah or Flynn, respectively). Point being - it becomes someone's fault if such things result in the game become a trainwreck. So people in these positions often work to, again, CYOA when it comes to preserving their jobs... which just happens to keep their department/Bioware/EA out of the fire as well. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 29 novembre 2013 - 09:07 .


#216
David7204

David7204
  • Members
  • 15 187 messages
And you propose to solve this problem of corporations whimpering in fear from regulations...by demanding ultra heavy regulations. Is that right?

Who are you even speaking against? Because I'm pretty sure that tirade you made earlier about how corporations could take away a player's electronic assets in games and the tremendous peril that constituted (and how RULES needed to be put in place to stop that from happening) was defending consumers.

Modifié par David7204, 29 novembre 2013 - 09:17 .


#217
Sylvius the Mad

Sylvius the Mad
  • Members
  • 24 112 messages

Maria Caliban wrote...

Are you saying that banks do offer limited-access debit cards? None of the ones I know of do so.

Strictly speaking, all debit cards are limited access.  Their access is limited to the accounts to which they are tied.

Rather than giving you some fixed amount of cash to spend as you see fit, your parent could transfer some fixed amount into your account.

But I was actually thinking about prepaid cards, where you have to load them up in advance.

#218
Fast Jimmy

Fast Jimmy
  • Members
  • 17 939 messages

David7204 wrote...

And you propose to solve this problem of corporations whimpering in fear from regulations...by demanding ultra heavy regulations. Is that right?

Who are you even speaking against? Because I'm pretty sure that tirade you made earlier about how corporations could take away a player's electronic assets in games and the tremendous peril that constituted (and how RULES needed to be put in place to stop that from happening) was defending consumers.


I'm not proposing any type of solution. Just the reality. 

If corporations don't impose their own standards and consumers suffer (either by the consumer's own fault or the intentional harm by the corporation), it results in complaints and, ultimately in our legalist society, government regulation and laws. Since the gaming industry has shown itself to not avoid situations where it seems completely inevitable that the worst will happen and litigation will occur, this is going to happen. 

It's not what NEEDS to happen, by my own opinion. But it will. If companies didn't put themselves in these positions in the first place, then it wouldn't need to. The easiest way to do that is to avoid it. 

#219
David7204

David7204
  • Members
  • 15 187 messages
Let me put things more simply, Jimmy. Is this litigation and regulation a good thing, or is it bad thing? You were showing utter contempt for a lack of rules of regulations earlier. And now you claim litigation would be the worst case scenario?

And let's not feign neutrality. This is obviously a touchy subject for you, it's a bit late for that.

Modifié par David7204, 29 novembre 2013 - 09:50 .


#220
Fast Jimmy

Fast Jimmy
  • Members
  • 17 939 messages

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Okay, I have to ask - where are condoms a restricted good?


Many states and cities in the US refuse condom sales to minors. Especially in the South. Its seen as promoting promiscuity in children. Despite the fact that it results in higher teenage pregnancy rates. Ce la vie.

Which, if true, meant there was no need for that regulation.


If that were REALLY true, there would be no problem selling cocaine in vending machines at middle schools. Industries that didn't have regulation before would be able to do anything they thought might make them money... and why not give kids a way to pep up and pay attention in class?

Regulation is inevitable to anything that could possibly cause harm. The more money you make, the more attention that harm is going to receive and the more likely someone is going to say "if you are making money when harm is happening, why isn't it your responsobiloty to likit or lrevent that harm?"

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 29 novembre 2013 - 09:50 .


#221
Fast Jimmy

Fast Jimmy
  • Members
  • 17 939 messages

David7204 wrote...

Let me put things more simply, Jimmy. Is this litigation and regulation a good thing, or is it bad thing? You were showing utter contempt for a lack of rules of regulations earlier.

And let's not feign neutrality. This is obviously a touchy subject for you, it's a bit late for that.


It's actually not. Its just frustration that people are apparently not at all aware of how responsibility inevitably shifts to a business when said business is making money. That there is a need for me to explain the reality that people will sue at the drop of a hat and that laws are offen passed due to mob mentality as a huge overcorrection to events that occur in the media.

My suggestion is just not to wade into those waters at all. Developers and publishers make the vast majority of their revenue from standard retail sales. Moving into waters that are highly unnavigated and untested, from a legal and regulatory perspective, is risky and unnecessary. 

If you need more money from game sales, charge a higher sticker price. But if you want to create content in between official releases, do it in the most open, honest and clear disclosure of why, what and how. In my opinion, ME3's MP RNG store is not that. At all. Which was the entire premise of my original argument. 

#222
David7204

David7204
  • Members
  • 15 187 messages
Okay, we're getting somewhere.

DLC has been around for a few years and there hasn't so much as a whisper of litigation. So have all kinds of transactions exchanging real money for virtual goods. ME 3's multiplayer system might be a bit of a potential issue since players don't know the exact drop odds, but aside from that, how is it not honest and clear?

Modifié par David7204, 29 novembre 2013 - 10:30 .


#223
BobZilla84

BobZilla84
  • Members
  • 1 585 messages
I am not a huge fan of Microtransactions but I have accepted that they aren't going anywhere soon so I think as long as they are optional and hopefully stay in MP like ME3 I fine because I won't buy them but I won't attack people who do.I wonder will there be a Season Pass for DAI maybe you get all DAI dlc for a reasonable price.

#224
Fast Jimmy

Fast Jimmy
  • Members
  • 17 939 messages

David7204 wrote...

Okay, we're getting somewhere.

DLC has been around for a few years and there hasn't so much as a whisper of litigation. So have all kinds of transactions exchanging real money for virtual goods. ME 3's multiplayer system might be a bit of a potential issue since players don't know the exact drop odds, but aside from that, how is it not honest and clear?


I'll take these one point at a time.

DLC is not my favorite practice, nor one which I participate in nor endorse. But it, by the same token, is limited in what damage it can do to a player. I'm willing to bet money that if we did some serious digging, we wouldn't be able to find more games that had chargeable DLC that cost more than a base, AAA $60 game than we have fingers on one hand... if any exist at all. ME3 had Jahvik ($10), possibly some items packs (let's just say an addition $5), the EC (free), Leviathan ($10), Omega ($15) and Citadel ($10). Altogether, that is $50, less than the $60 price tag and Bioware is known in the industry as putting out lots of DLC for their games, a model they have received notice for from other developers about. So, ultimately, the damage is rather limited. Again - I think it's a poor value proposition - a quarter or fifth of the base price, yet barely a few hours of content is a terrible cost/benefit ratio - but there are only so many DLC you can buy before you own them all... and at a price that cannot devastate anyone's life.

Now... virtual goods are another discussion. They can mean so many different things that it would behoove us to start divying them up.

Good Types
1) Cosmetic - a new farm building in Farmville could be an example, or a Manchester united banner to unlock for your CoD avatar. What-have you. 

2) Game boosts - these are your XP boosts, or +X% damage,  or health bonuses, or higher drop rates, etc. These actually affect gameplay and can result in the odds being balanced more to players... for a cost, of course.

3) Gear - Similar to boosts, except these represent actual items in-game. Instead of 10% more damage, as a boost would do, gear usually represents a certain level of quality. This can be uber-grade level, unobtainable without purchases (like many "pay to win" models) or it can be gear that isn't the highest, maybe even mid-tier, but available earlier than it would be earlier (think Ser Issaac's armor for DA2... well, I know you haven't played DA2, let alone seen its promotional virtual goods, but use your imagination). 

4) Characters/classes - This can range from unlocking Yoda in Soulcaliber to unlocking the Volus Infiltrator class in ME3 MP. Basically, a character or class you can play that gives a different appearance and (usually) different abilities or gameplay for your in-game avatar. 

5) Consumables - Last, but certianly not least, we have consumables. These are items that are used in game, for a (very) limited number of times and assist with gameplay. While similar to game boosts, they are usually much more immediate in their application and instead of lasting for a certain period of time, usually wait until activation before the clock begins ticking.


Distribution Types
1) DLC -  I've covered this earlier. Do not like, but it's limited range of damage keeps it from being a true threat to game companies in terms of ways for consumers to abuse it and come after them.

2) Delayed Effect Purchase - This would be like buying a new outfit, or a new barn in Farmville, or a new class in ME. You purchase the item, it gets added to your inventory, your collection grows and you continue the game. It is a bit more passive... but not in any way less dangerous. The Simpson's Tapped Out game can have a player spending real money to buy donuts, the virtual currency, and buying seasonal-themed items regularly every few months, with some items costing $10 a piece. Times that buy a dozen or so seasonal items (they just ended their Halloween themed event and are now moving on to Christmas) and a player can easily sink hundreds of dollars into the game over the course of months and not be vividly aware.

3) Immediate Effect Purchases - You see this often with action games, especially those of competitive play. Purchases that can revive your fallen character and get you back in the action, or those that give your team a damage multiplier during a match, etc. 

There is a blurry line here sometimes with consumables and the last two categories. In one way, they are almost always delayed effect purchases, since they are purchases ahead of time. Yet their use is often an immediate one, such as using medigel during ME3's MP. I'd lean them more towards the delayed purchase, although EA exec John Riticello once mused in a public stock holder's meeting about charging for bullets if you are needing a reload, which would pretty much be the most blatant example of the exact behavior I am saying will completely ruin the entire practice for the gaming industry and result in regulation being needed to prevent this type of gross manipulation of gamers... but John is no longer apart of EA or the video game industry, so that may be beating a dead horse.



One aspect I have mentioned is quantity. DLC is not an overly dangerous model simply because there is a rather finite amount of it. Otehr types of virtual goods, such as cosmetic skins or characters, can be small. Extra outfits in ME2 could be bought, which only resulted in ten extra outfits. Only two or three classes are locked in certain online games, which only result in a few purchases before the options are eliminated. However... ME3's MP? 

There were dozens of diffferent classes, dozens of different weapons and dozens of different capacity upgrades. But, on top of that, each upgrade could be earned or purchased nine times, giving a slight bonus each time to that weapon/class/etc. You are talking about the total number of unlockable items being in the thousands. 

While earning in game credits to buy packs was very easy and not very time consuming, there still were dozens of unlockables the player could really want and it could require hundreds of item packs before they could realistically have them in their hands. It could result in a player just wanting to buy them all.

And there are players that do.



Because for every game where you can use real life money, there are people who use way too much. And that's where the danger comes in. No matter which type of virtual good a company is trying to get you to buy - a shiny new outfit, a brand new character to have run around your virtual town, a new weapon that will give you an advantage in the next MP match or a cute dog to play with and show off to your virtual friends... there are people who pay WAY too much for it all. 

So, no big deal, right? People buy stupid stuff all the time. Buyer's remorse, their own responsibility, the internet's been doing it for years... stop being paranoid, Fast Jimmy.

But I'll go back to my McDonald's example. McDonald's was founded in 1940 as a small barbecue joint in San Bernardino, CA. It shifted to becoming a burger stand in 1948 and began franchising, with the "official" McDonald's corporation being started in 1955. 48 years later, a man sued McDonald's and three other fast food chains for making him obese and not informing him of the content of what he was eating. In 2010, 70 years after the first meal was served at a McDonald's, a Brazilian man successfully won a suit against McDonald's for the weight he gained while he was employed there, citing he was forced to eat the food and it was now adversely affecting his health.

It took over half a decade for suits to start coming out of the woodwork against the fast food industry. Even longer for the tobacco industry, and the alcohol industry as well. Microtransactions and virtual goods have been a serious, legitimate business for barely a decade. If anyone really thinks that there won't be suits and, tailing right behind those, a wave of popular support legislation for the flavor of the week's social justice cause, then I seriously think you are underestimate the power of selfish individuals in large groups with what they feel is right on their side.

Video games aren't a fast food industry. They aren't tobacco. Or alcohol. Or gambling. Or hardcore narcotics, like cocaine or heroin. They aren't products that, inherently, are dangerous for people to use... until people start making them that way to maximize profit. In the past half decade, we've really seen the growth of the DLC model and, now, the microtransaction one, as video game companies are toeing the line of a new revenue stream that they see as an endless piggy bank... but which they should be looking at as a giant bear trap, always on the cusp of clamping down on a company and forcing them to cut off their leg to get out. 

Free to Play models, social games... heck, even collectible card games - they all represent small fish in a big pond. They aren't worth the effort to reel them in, despite how booming one company can be for four to six quarters straight with the newest Candy Crush, or Angry Birds, or what have you. Very small fish, not worth eating after you have to throw them in the fryer.

But a big catfish, that's been circling the pond a few decades, that's been eating its fill of profitable ventures and has the infrastructure to take a big chunk of it and not have the whole house of cards collapse on itself? Now that's a tasty looking fish. One that's worth reeling in. One that would still have enough meat once you scorched it in the deep fry for a little while to get your meal. That fish is EA and if it doesn't think there isn't a hook out there with its name on it, then I question the sanity of those who make such decisions on behalf of their company.

/rant

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 30 novembre 2013 - 01:03 .


#225
Lebanese Dude

Lebanese Dude
  • Members
  • 5 545 messages
K about to read Fast Jimmy's post. *hold breath*