235 réponses à ce sujet

[Pedrak]

Haven't bought the Enhanced edition of BG II, since I'm no fan of replaying games I've already finished, but out of curiosity I've read a few reviews on the web.

Oh, boys... here are a few excerpts. And these are professional reviewers!


"Beginning a game by creating a character offers a ton of options with classes and aliments. Far too many options, I really have no idea why this game expects me to know a complex rule structure. I created a thief that seemed to be completely worthless so I went back and made different character. They also kept dying so I just went with a prefabricated one."

"The combat is also a complete mess. I don’t know if this version is more difficult than the original but I was unaware that RPG’s featured character’s standing there and constantly missing attacks on an enemy. There are plenty of encounters that boiled down to clicking on an opponent and just watching everyone miss each other for what felt like minutes. Trying to look through the stats of your character doesn’t mean anything to if you’re not familiar with the rule set. Why does the armor number go down? What the *beep* does THACO mean?"

"Sadly, my experience when creating my character was not the end of the problem. Once I started playing, I found loot, but I didn't know how to prioritize it. When I ran out of inventory space, was it a good plan to drop my third extra short sword in order to pick up that book, or did I just throw away some cash? Could I sell gems, or would I need them for crafting later on? "

"Once new party members became available to me, should I have changed to them or stuck with my current team? There were no answers to be found, and so it was that my every moment playing this legendary game became a frustrating chore. "

"newbies will need the patience of a saint to survive the complexity of its gameplay."




  When did reviewers (and players) become so lazy and inept? Aside for the fact that you can always READ THE MANUAL, the Infinity Engine games were not exactly rocket science. I started playing them as a teen with no previous RPG experience, and it was also my first encounter with D&D.  It took me a few hours to understand how stuff worked, but that was it. Do people need to be spoonfed to the point that slightly more complex mechanics throw them into confusion? That's really depressing. Maybe we fans should keep this in mind when we complain BioWare is streamlining RPG elements in some of their new games (ex. the Mass Effect series).

Modifié par Pedrak, 28 novembre 2013 - 01:50 .

[Il Divo]

As someone who utterly hates the abomination that is DnD 2.0 and Vancian Casting even more, I think the mechanics of any game should be explained in the game itself.

Not by reading a 263+ page manual. It's the same basic problem I have with DA:O choosing to not give players the damage results for spells in the spell description.

[Pedrak]

Il Divo wrote...

As someone who utterly hates the abomination that is DnD 2.0 and Vancian Casting even more, I think the mechanics of any game should be explained in the game itself.

Not by reading a 263+ page manual. It's the same basic problem I have with DA:O choosing to not give players the damage results for spells in the spell description.

But some of these complaints are not even about the mechanics (I honestly don't remember how much the Candlekeep tutorial in BG1 explained, but I do recall jumping into the game having barely skimmed through the 50-pages or so manual, and not having particular troubles). They're complaining because the game is not clearly telling them what to do with the huge amount of loot (what to keep, what to drop), with the many companions (who to keep, who to kick out of the party)... This kind of stuff should never be in a manual - it should be discovered while playing: let the player try and find out. It's as if people have become so terrified of making a mistake while playing, they can't handle a little complexity and need to be guided like a blind man by its German shepherd.

Modifié par Pedrak, 28 novembre 2013 - 02:09 .

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

I really have problems with gameplay of Fallout 1,2 and BG 1 and 2. Their gameplays make them both annoying and boring.

[Nole]

Kaiser Arian wrote...

I really have problems with gameplay of Fallout 1,2 and BG 1 and 2. Their gameplays make them both annoying and boring.

[Pedrak]

Interesting that you people find those games so difficult. Maybe it's a generational thing (I'm in my early thirties, and I guess I'm older than the average poster here).

Modifié par Pedrak, 28 novembre 2013 - 02:19 .

[Seagloom]

My first time through Baldur's Gate I was completely clueless. I remember trying to read through the manual and finding it so alien to my current gaming skill set, that it barely made sense. This was after years of having played JRPGs, mind. I was no stranger to the concept of turn based, real-time, or real time w/pause. I had also played Fallout immediately prior to Baldur's Gate since it was a freebie in the Gold version. Fallout by contrast was easy for me to pick up and play.

As strange as it seems to me looking back, I actually resorted to cheating my first time through BG. I used the console to spawn tomes so my half-elf mage's stats were jacked up to 25 across the board. When I realized simply maxing stats wasn't enough, I abused the multiplayer function to import/export her several dozen times so she could repeat the first dream sequence and earn another cast of Cure Light Wounds. By the time I was done she could cast CLW over 25 times. XD

Then there was all the RNG involved. RNG for combat rolls, RNG for random encounters, RNG for spell effects... it all felt very chaotic. I was a bit better by the time BG2 rolled around. I could finish BG1 without cheating, and somehow muddled my way through BG2 as a paladin. Of course my tactics usually boiled down to casting Breach, then Haste, then having everyone pile atop one target. If it wasn't a wizard I skipped Breach and went straight for the hasted beatdown. XD

It wasn't until NWN that I truly got interested in D&D and started learning how to actually play. I got seriously into the lore thanks to Throne of Bhaal and Planescape: Torment. After digging deeply into NWN I returned to BG and found it one of the easiest games I ever played. I consider the series a joke now, difficulty wise.

Personally, I think BioWare did a ****** poor job with the tutorial. The interface was also too uninformative. Still, it was their first RPG so it's understandable. Planescape: Torment handled it better by boiling down damage modifiers and bonuses in easy Diablo-like, language. Like if I found an axe, its text cleanly listed 1-8 damage instead of 1d8 damage. Stuff like that.

Now all that aside, Baldur's Gate is a game that would turn off anyone from recent gaming generations experiencing it for the first time. Forget vaguely informative tutorials and daunting manuals full of unfamiliar jargon.

There is no free healing after battles in BG. Party members can permanently die. It's an instant game over if you die; unlike most party based games these days. Animation is lacking in flash and bang. Like that reviewer wrote, characters just stand there whacking each other with sticks. The classes are terribly balanced, and it's impossible to know which are beginner friendly going in.

The map is very open, and enemies don't scale to your level. So if you like to explore, you'll probably get owned. For example, if you decided to wander off that road where Imoen meets you, you'll encounter wolves and bears that can instagib your duo. An experienced player can kite them or know to cast something like Sleep. A newbie will probably be screwed.

Then there were moments like that BS battle with Tarnesh where he Magic Missiles you to death. Think about how annoying that would be to someone accustomed to today's RPGs where early encounters are easy going, to give players a chance to learn the basics?

I love those games. They're great. I replay them every year to this day. But in all honesty, their mechanics and design are decidedly old skool.

Modifié par Seagloom, 28 novembre 2013 - 02:24 .

[Eternal Phoenix]

Baldur's Gate's combat couldn't be anymore simple. I never read the manual. The combat is basically summed up by dice rolls where your character is more likely to hit based whether they have higher statistics and higher level than their enemy (at least that's the basic explanation I have for it in Baldur's Gate).

These idiots probably went to Durlag's Tower Area after leaving Candlekeep with Imoen, Xzar and Montaron at LV 1.

It's either that or the enhanced edition really is much harder than the original? Sounds like the author has a problem with the fundemental mechanics of the game though. For me the difficulty faded in the original once you reached LV 3 where one hit kills were no longer likely to happen against you (well providing you weren't a sorcerer otherwise you can always nearly be one shot killed). Having a good party set-up was also vital to survival and it was a game (like Dark Souls) where you have to learn everything yourself. It was hardcore (but fair) and didn't hold you by the hand.

Now how can people praise Dark Souls for doing the same thing but look back at Baldur's Gate (which did all this before DkS) and bash BG for it? This is rediculous. 

Sad thing is that Baldur's Gate isn't even complex. Complex character building? Don't make me laugh. Neverwinter Nights had complex character building with the wide array of skills, classes, specializations, race specific feats, abilities and classes, feats and class packages (where you could create your own custom package).

It's truly a bad sign of the gaming industry when Baldur's Gate is considered "complex" where you will "need the patience of a saint to survive the complexity" this makes me laugh. Please tell me that the author of this tripe is getting his ass whooped as we speak for this garbage?

Edit:

Apparently he's a needle in a haystack thankfully.

http://forum.baldurs...eview-thread/p3

Other negative reviews are judging the game based on the fact that they don't believe the Enhanced Edition (especially with free mods out for BG upgrading everything already) is justified with what it adds. Although it seems more reviews are positive with the conclusion being that BG has aged well.

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 28 novembre 2013 - 02:29 .

[Il Divo]

Pedrak wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

As someone who utterly hates the abomination that is DnD 2.0 and Vancian Casting even more, I think the mechanics of any game should be explained in the game itself.

Not by reading a 263+ page manual. It's the same basic problem I have with DA:O choosing to not give players the damage results for spells in the spell description.

But some of these complaints are not even about the mechanics (I honestly don't remember how much the Candlekeep tutorial in BG1 explained, but I do recall jumping into the game having barely skimmed through the 50-pages or so manual, and not having particular troubles). They're complaining because the game is not clearly telling them what to do with the huge amount of loot (what to keep, what to drop), with the many companions (who to keep, who to kick out of the party)... This kind of stuff should never be in a manual - it should be discovered while playing: let the player try and find out. It's as if people have become so terrified of making a mistake while playing, they can't handle a little complexity and need to be guided like a blind man by its German shepherd.

Granted, I think the loot + companion complaints are a bit out of line. God help anyone playing Diablo or Wow if they don't like loot.

But I'm also seeing some very warranted criticisms. Someone mentions how stats don't mean anything if you can't clearly tell its value.

Just for fun, about an hour before this thread, I decided to make a new Baldur's Gate toon, but had to look up what the highest constitution bonus a caster gets since past a certain score they don't see bonus hitpoints. It's little nitty gritty but critical details like this which make old school games frustrating to deal with, especially since in old school DnD it's possible for characters to be one shot with critical strikes.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

I wish they redeveloped BG 1 and/or 2 with NWN 2 settings, gameplay and graphic.

[Il Divo]

Kaiser Arian wrote...

I wish they redeveloped BG 1 and/or 2 with NWN 2 settings, gameplay and graphic.

This could be my own DnD 3.0 bias, but I would much prefer that.

[Pedrak]

Kaiser Arian wrote...

I wish they redeveloped BG 1 and/or 2 with NWN 2 settings, gameplay and graphic.

I'd hate that!

If nothing else because the UI and the camera in NWN2 were insufferable for my tastes (my main issues with the otherwise excellent Mask of the Betrayer), and graphics much inferior to the IE.  NWN2 just felt ugly  to me compared, say, to Icewind Dale. To each his own, I guess.

edit: but I do recall some fans making a remake of Baldur's Gate with the NWN2 engine - a titanic work. I think I read it somewhere a few months ago.

Modifié par Pedrak, 28 novembre 2013 - 02:44 .

[In Exile]

Elton John is dead wrote...

Baldur's Gate's combat couldn't be anymore simple. I never read the manual. The combat is basically summed up by dice rolls where your character is more likely to hit based whether they have higher statistics and higher level than their enemy (at least that's the basic explanation I have for it in Baldur's Gate).

Except that you have to understand what the completely non-intuitive and garbage statistics actually mean your first time through, since you're locked into them from the start. And how the feat packages work for weapons. And what spells aren't complete garbage (well, all of them, since you only get to). And then appreciate things like how scrolls work, which is a very counter-intuitive way of actually creating magic. 

Having a good party set-up was also vital to survival and it was a game (like Dark Souls) where you have to learn everything yourself. It was hardcore (but fair) and didn't hold you by the hand.

And how do you think you learn what a good party set up is?

Now how can people praise Dark Souls for doing the same thing but look back at Baldur's Gate (which did all this before DkS) and bash BG for it? This is rediculous.  

Dark Souls - being a single person action game - is intuitive but difficult. 

[In Exile]

Pedrak wrote...
But some of these complaints are not even about the mechanics (I honestly don't remember how much the Candlekeep tutorial in BG1 explained, but I do recall jumping into the game having barely skimmed through the 50-pages or so manual, and not having particular troubles). They're complaining because the game is not clearly telling them what to do with the huge amount of loot (what to keep, what to drop), with the many companions (who to keep, who to kick out of the party)... This kind of stuff should never be in a manual - it should be discovered while playing: let the player try and find out. It's as if people have become so terrified of making a mistake while playing, they can't handle a little complexity and need to be guided like a blind man by its German shepherd.

What to do with the companions - from a powergame POV - is a legitimate cripe. There's nothing wrong with a difficult game that requires optimization, but when you have no clue where to even begin on structuring a party, and the game throws a bunch of critters at you in random locations in a kind of unpredictable order, it's hard to tell what actually makes the party "functional". Because you have to learn things like, warriors just hack at things and don't really do anything else, mages are basically useless at low levels and get gibbed really easily, etc. 

[Pedrak]

What to do with the companions - from a powergame POV - is a legitimate cripe. There's nothing wrong with a difficult game that requires optimization, but when you have no clue where to even begin on structuring a party, and the game throws a bunch of critters at you in random locations in a kind of unpredictable order, it's hard to tell what actually makes the party "functional".

In Exile wrote...


And how do you think you learn what a good party set up is?

Making several bad parties until you learn. But it's also just a matter of logic - keeping things balanced - someone who can handle physical fights, someone who casts spell, someone who can pick locks, disarm traps, etc. . It requires some attempts, but again, it's not rocket science. I did it almost automatically - maybe making a SUPERB, flawless party requires some in-depth knowledge, but making a decent one is just common sense, really

Modifié par Pedrak, 28 novembre 2013 - 02:52 .

[Seagloom]

Pedrak wrote...

edit: but I do recall some fans making a remake of Baldur's Gate with the NWN2 engine - a titanic work. I think I read it somewhere a few months ago.

Yep, it can be found here.

[Liamv2]

So he is complaining about the tutorials being bad at explaining things, sounds like a valid complaint to me. I had a similar complaint with dark souls. Great game awful tutorials.

[Pedrak]

Liamv2 wrote...

So he is complaining about the tutorials being bad at explaining things, sounds like a valid complaint to me. I had a similar complaint with dark souls. Great game awful tutorials.

He is - they are, actually: it's more than one reviewer - also complaining about other stuff, though: ex. don't know which loot to keep, which to get rid of, which companions are better... Something I don't believe a game should tell you, as it's part of the fun finding it out. That's just lazy, for me.

[Seagloom]

Pedrak wrote...

He is - they are, actually: it's more than one reviewer - also complaining about other stuff, though: ex. don't know which loot to keep, which to get rid of, which companions are better... Something I don't believe a game should tell you, as it's part of the fun finding it out. That's just lazy, for me.

Not everyone shares the same beliefs. Expectations can differ. Blame it on conditioning from modern games or personality quirks. It is what it is. You having a certain preference here does not make it right. It only makes it yours.

[Liamv2]

While some stuff like which companions are best should be figured out yourself. Why am i collecting these items? How do the classes and stats work what do they do? These are things that should be explained in the tutorial.

[Pedrak]

Seagloom wrote...

Pedrak wrote...

He is - they are, actually: it's more than one reviewer - also complaining about other stuff, though: ex. don't know which loot to keep, which to get rid of, which companions are better... Something I don't believe a game should tell you, as it's part of the fun finding it out. That's just lazy, for me.

Not everyone shares the same beliefs. Expectations can differ. Blame it on conditioning from modern games or personality quirks.

But which of the two? That's what interests me.

Also, while I surely realize I'm not stating universal truths, I do believe for my tastes it's kind of pointless to have any choice of loot at all if the game downright tells you what to keep (you might as well just hand me the best stuff), to be able to select different companions if they tell you which combination of them is better, and so on.

Modifié par Pedrak, 28 novembre 2013 - 03:22 .

[Nerevar-as]

Pedrak wrote...

Seagloom wrote...

Pedrak wrote...

He is - they are, actually: it's more than one reviewer - also complaining about other stuff, though: ex. don't know which loot to keep, which to get rid of, which companions are better... Something I don't believe a game should tell you, as it's part of the fun finding it out. That's just lazy, for me.

Not everyone shares the same beliefs. Expectations can differ. Blame it on conditioning from modern games or personality quirks.

But which of the two? That's what interests me.

Also, while I surely realize I'm not stating universal truths, I do believe for my tastes it's kind of pointless to have any choice of loot at all if the game downright tells you what to keep (you might as well just hand me the best stuff), to be able to select different companions if they tell you which combination of them is better, and so on.

I´d bet for the former, games are getting so much simpler and demanding less and less from the player (I think Ryse had automatic QTEs), that people don´t develop the "tools" to aproach games that actually ask the player to think hard. I know I first played BG1 about 15 years ago with absolute no idea how it worked (dualclass isn´t really for the first PC you create), and still really enjoyed to the end.

[Il Divo]

In Exile wrote...

Dark Souls - being a single person action game - is intuitive but difficult. 

Dark Souls also helps in that as you level you can literally see what effect increasing any stat has on your character's abilities, not to mention what class you start with can be turned into virtually anything you'd like with relative ease.

Of course, I'm also biased in that I thought Dark Souls provided a lot of other great aspects atmosphere, graphics, characters, and lore, in addition to enjoyable gameplay.

Modifié par Il Divo, 28 novembre 2013 - 03:41 .

[Joy Divison]

How is it even possible to make a tutorial that explains such an in-depth game as Dungeons and Dragons? Can't be done. That 263 page manual is already a condensed version of the rules and nowhere in the rules will it tell you that a fighter who does not have exceptional strength is a gimped character.

BG is hard...very. There is a *lot* of reloading and the D&D system has never been intuitive or easy to grasp. I can definitely see how gamers unfamiliar with the mechanics or the concept of death being permanent would make for a frustrating playthrough. That being said, many of the critiques in the OP seem idiotic - they are complaining about "far too many options" and expecting "answers" of what to do when meeting a new character?!?

[BlueMagitek]

To be fair, I don't think anybody liked THACO. >.>

I kind of agree with Seagloom, but BG does kind of emulate a campaign fairly well.