235 réponses à ce sujet

[Joy Divison]

@ Seagloom,

I appreciate the thought out response. You have made more concessions that I typically come across and it is clear you thought about what I said. For that reason alone, you proved me wrong in saying there would be no value in our discussion. I'm running late so I, unfortunately cannot return the favor, but I will say much of what you wrote at toward the bottom I agree with and is perfectly valid. And I will agree with you that although we disagree, we can now better appreciate the other person's argument.

I still vehemently disagree about the spells, probably because I've played a lot of table top gaming where those differences between save/no save, cloudkill no effecting many enemies (or can be easily dispersed by a gust of wind), et al. where those differences make a *major* difference, but i will grant that in a CRPG, even in BG, these differences don;t come up as often or are as important.

And I think the main reason your mage watched the grass grow was the same reason mine did, for a generation D&D and D&D offshoot games did a horrible job of giving low-level wizards a meaningful way to contribute when it's not the optimal time to cast one of the three spells you have memorized.

[Seagloom]

Oh yeah, tabletop is a whole different animal. Sorcerer is not as OP and you can't abuse the same spells. No argument there. Were CRPG renditions of D&D identical to PnP I wouldn't think that all. BG really neutered magic in comparison. Druids in particular really got the shaft. But I suppose it can't be helped given engine limitations.

I was a little disappointed when BioWare said they wouldn't implement the insane abilities Hierophant druids got in 2e. >.>

Anyway, yeah... thanks for the discussion.

Modifié par Seagloom, 30 novembre 2013 - 10:53 .

[philippe willaume]

hello
Like Seagloom, I don't think there is a right or wrong here,

free revive and automatic healing are exactly the same as save/reload and go to camp for healing and as you said it is by far much less a pain in the rear end.
I.e. saving before every door=going to camp when health is too low.
and as you said saving before every door is less annoying that having two set of gear and legging it to temples to get the dead resurrected until you are of a level high enough.


For damage injury to be meaningful it has to have an effect on how you execute in the game and not in pure game play only, which neither BG,NWN or DA has.

In BG like in DA:0 you could set traps and use choke points so, there is a bit more of actual tactics than in DA:2 (or DA:0 with more than one mage).
That being said it is true that when faced with tough opposition, the first run is usually a recon run.
So that you learn what spell you will need and how to split the opposition in manageable forces.
but and that is the main value is that you can play the character you want and get away with it, if you are smart enough and at least you have to come up with different option to defeat the different opponents.
That being said, for me it still beats cycling the talent/cool-down in the same order all the times after build optimisation.

and yes D&D 2md edition system is complex compared and not really self explanatory but you were likely to know it from P&P anyway and as it was mention before you are talking about time where it was about find the smallest mouse driver to load in HMA, optimising autoexec and system to free as much of the 640k as possible and what IRQ was used for what.

Phil

[AlanC9]

Seagloom wrote...

I was a little disappointed when BioWare said they wouldn't implement the insane abilities Hierophant druids got in 2e. >.>

Jaheira could have used a boost.

[Seagloom]

Unsure if that's sarcastic. XD I thought Jaheira was fairly powerful. Her and Haer'dalis were the closest NPCs got to being fighter/mage OP. I was thinking more of single-classed druids. Despite getting a few nifty bonuses they felt underwhelming in ToB.

Modifié par Seagloom, 01 décembre 2013 - 04:54 .

[Isichar]

Thats odd, Ive beaten the game with Jaheira in my party a few times and I usually consider her to be one the weakest npc's. Shes decent when she is a high level but leveling her I usually just have her sit back and cast some heal spells.

Modifié par Isichar, 01 décembre 2013 - 07:17 .

[Seagloom]

Iron Skins makes Jaheira very tanky. She can easily get full elemental immunity with the right equipment combination too. Plus she can dual wield with Belm in the off hand to become a decent shredder against weaker enemies. Although I tend to alternate between it and a shield depending on if I need her to tank or not.

She is a bit of a late bloomer, tho'. Her starting proficiencies and stats aren't impressive. It takes most of chapter 2 before she starts coming together. And that's with an incomplete party. (I usually play parties of five for faster XP gain and less splitting up of gear.)

In terms of sheer offense there's definitely better. Anomen and Korgan can be pretty impressive wrecking balls. But she's more self-sufficient than most of the warrior options IMO.

Modifié par Seagloom, 01 décembre 2013 - 07:48 .

[Isichar]

Yeah I can definitely see her making a decent self-sufficient tank although I prefer to have a designated tank and a designated healer. Its one of the reasons I prefer some of the evil party members is because most of them are specialized in 1 class and can perform that really well.

Its an issue I had with many of the multiclasses until ToB. When they added the abilities I found there was some really powerful combination of spells and abilities that made it much more worthwhile but at a low level they feel more like jack of all trades that are only ideal for specific situations. Basically once I got whirlwind on any type of warrior class I found the game got significantly easier.

Part of it is also my playstyle, I like it when each one of my party members is capable of killing large groups of enemies by themselves, and she is not really designed to do that as much.

Modifié par Isichar, 01 décembre 2013 - 08:06 .

[AlanC9]

I was referring to Jaheira in ToB. I like her fine in BG2 proper, but I think she fades in high levels compared to other party members since she gets the lousy druid progression but doesn't get much to show for it. ( I agree that she's better off than a pure druid, of course)

I don't really see the problem with dual-classes not being specialized enough. Given the way XP progression works in that edition, you're a little bit behind but you're fully competent in both classes. Non-optimal stats aren't much of an issue with all the stat-boosting gear around, are they?

[HoonDing]

Jaheira's biggest problem is that she's a damn Harper.